I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat May 06, 2017 4:05 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:I didn't mean in a general sense, I mean in the fact that the fundemantal rules for how it's protagonists powers function can only be found in a vague magazine tidbit that predates the show they're currently staring in. Not an in-universe explanation, not a tidbit made by Toei, a freaking magazine page that most people will never see.
That's some shit writing right there.
Some people still don't know about what is truly stated in the guidebooks as not all of them have been translated. Hell, some fans don't even know that the Daizenshuu's even exist. Or that V-Jump and WSJ have provided battle powers in the past to help fill in the blanks for how strong characters were in the story, while the story was still going on. Not to mention that some information provided from the Daizenshuu's, V-Jump and WSJ, especially in regards to character strength (i.e. battle powers) can sometimes outright contradict what happens in the manga or make the perspective of the story unnecessarily confusing and convoluted.
Yes but it was never something as fundamental as HOW GOKU'S FREAKING POWERS WORK! This is one of the most basic things you have in any story: what the character can or can't do, why and how they go about changing it.

You don't need to see the SEG to know that SS2 or 3 are stronger than SS1 or to infer that SS1 is stronger than whatever Kaio-Ken can do. The story does a good job of proving that without needing the guide books to cover up for it. You also don't need the supplementary material to get a sense for where characters stand in relation to one another. If fully relaxed Cell beat up Trunks and Vegeta, then Goku forcing him to use a considerable amount of his power alone showcases the gap between these characters well enough.

You CANNOT understand how and why Goku's powers work the way they do in Super without hunting down an obscure magazine factoid. That's bad writing.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 06, 2017 4:29 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
That's some shit writing right there.
Some people still don't know about what is truly stated in the guidebooks as not all of them have been translated. Hell, some fans don't even know that the Daizenshuu's even exist. Or that V-Jump and WSJ have provided battle powers in the past to help fill in the blanks for how strong characters were in the story, while the story was still going on. Not to mention that some information provided from the Daizenshuu's, V-Jump and WSJ, especially in regards to character strength (i.e. battle powers) can sometimes outright contradict what happens in the manga or make the perspective of the story unnecessarily confusing and convoluted.
Yes but it was never something as fundamental as HOW GOKU'S FREAKING POWERS WORK! This is one of the most basic things you have in any story: what the character can or can't do, why and how they go about changing it.

You don't need to see the SEG to know that SS2 or 3 are stronger than SS1 or to infer that SS1 is stronger than whatever Kaio-Ken can do. The story does a good job of proving that without needing the guide books to cover up for it. You also don't need the supplementary material to get a sense for where characters stand in relation to one another. If fully relaxed Cell beat up Trunks and Vegeta, then Goku forcing him to use a considerable amount of his power alone showcases the gap between these characters well enough.

You CANNOT understand how and why Goku's powers work the way they do in Super without hunting down an obscure magazine factoid. That's bad writing.
The only thing we didn't know about in relation to Goku's power was how strong his base form was. People came to the conclusion that his base form was as strong as SSJG because the events of BOG show us the absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God. It was just a case of determining as to when, or even if, he used God ki in his base form from the events of Resurrection F and beyond. I'll definitely agree that it was left too vague for my taste, but it not to say that we don't know how Goku's power work. We know that Goku and Vegeta in their base form were really strong and they can tap into God ki and as a result turn into SSJB. It was just left ambiguous as to just how strong their base forms are. Not whether they could or couldn't use their powers, as in relation to whether they can use God ki outside of SSJB. Because they obviously can, as if they couldn't, they wouldn't be able to become Super Saiyan Blue. I mean, Super Saiyan Blue just doesn't happen by accident. You have to mix God ki with Super Saiyan, or something at the very least, to tap into the form. Goku literally said that was the case in Resurrection F.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat May 06, 2017 4:34 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Some people still don't know about what is truly stated in the guidebooks as not all of them have been translated. Hell, some fans don't even know that the Daizenshuu's even exist. Or that V-Jump and WSJ have provided battle powers in the past to help fill in the blanks for how strong characters were in the story, while the story was still going on. Not to mention that some information provided from the Daizenshuu's, V-Jump and WSJ, especially in regards to character strength (i.e. battle powers) can sometimes outright contradict what happens in the manga or make the perspective of the story unnecessarily confusing and convoluted.
Yes but it was never something as fundamental as HOW GOKU'S FREAKING POWERS WORK! This is one of the most basic things you have in any story: what the character can or can't do, why and how they go about changing it.

You don't need to see the SEG to know that SS2 or 3 are stronger than SS1 or to infer that SS1 is stronger than whatever Kaio-Ken can do. The story does a good job of proving that without needing the guide books to cover up for it. You also don't need the supplementary material to get a sense for where characters stand in relation to one another. If fully relaxed Cell beat up Trunks and Vegeta, then Goku forcing him to use a considerable amount of his power alone showcases the gap between these characters well enough.

You CANNOT understand how and why Goku's powers work the way they do in Super without hunting down an obscure magazine factoid. That's bad writing.
The only thing we didn't know about in relation to Goku's power was how strong his base form was. People came to the conclusion that his base form was as strong as SSJG because the events of BOG show us the absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God. It was just a case of determining as to when, or even if, he used God ki in his base form from the events of Resurrection F and beyond. I'll definitely agree that it was left too vague for my taste, but it not to say that we don't know how Goku's power work. We know that Goku and Vegeta in their base form were really strong and they can tap into God ki and as a result turn into SSJB. It was just left ambiguous as to just how strong their base forms are. Not whether they could or couldn't use their powers, as in relation to whether they can use God ki outside of SSJB. Because they obviously can, as if they couldn't, they wouldn't be able to become Super Saiyan Blue. I mean, Super Saiyan Blue just doesn't happen by accident. You have to mix God ki with Super Saiyan, or something at the very least, to tap into the form. Goku literally said that was the case in Resurrection F.
And then Super comes in and brings back the golden line which shouldn't exist anymore if you want to take Fs explanation into account until Base Goku & Vegeta's powers randomly fluctuate from being what you assume them to be to being considerably weaker, if not the same as they were pre-God ritual/Whis-training.

The entire explanation of "Super Saiyan Blue is the power of a Saiyan who's attained the power of Super Saiyan God using Super Saiyan" goes down the crapper when the golden line comes back and you've got his Base randomly dropping & rising.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Desassina » Sat May 06, 2017 5:04 pm

TheMikado wrote:Except your Cell example is incorrect. Cell was merely showing he COULD increase his power at will, same of Grade 3 Trunks and it does, but at the expense of speed and stamina. There was absolutely a correlation between the visual cue and power and Cell did not have the same level of power in his none deformed state as his bulked up form.
So what if Grade III has a con? Doesn't SSJ3 have energy loss? They're shortcuts towards one's full power past a certain threshold. Once they have reached God power, the golden haired transformations become stable shortcuts from a lower state. There's no need to play around with my correct example to find its flaws. A shortcut is a shortcut for when Cell could power up without changing.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Tectorman » Sat May 06, 2017 5:20 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I won't lie, Super could have/should have done a better job at explaining this. But it's very obvious Toriyama changed his tune on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be while Super was airing and while the manga was being written. Hell, Toriyama himself outright stated that he has no plans on Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).
How so? In BoG, Goku gets up to a 6, where Beerus ultimately topped out at 7. In RoF, we have SSB above that 6 and Golden Frieza above that SSB, but still plenty of room in between 6 and 10 for those two unstated figures to fit in.

Super tells the same story to that point. Then they train for the U6 tournament, and Vegeta predicts at the beginning of the three-year training period beforehand that they will likely not make any significant gains. So they are only marginally stronger than their RoF selves (not counting manga Goku's limited ability to switch between SSG and SSB, or anime Goku's Kaioken, for the reason that they are not shared across both tellings). And of all the enemies they face, only Hit was comparable to SSB. So as of the U6 arc, they're still within the 6-10 range Toriyama originally had.

Then the Zamasu arc happens. Sans fusion characters, the only two instances of a character being at or above SSB are Goku Black when he first fights Vegeta and SSRose. Higher up than SSB but still conceivable inside the afore-mentioned 6-10 range. Then we have Atsushi Kido's statement (regarding the anime) that, except for Beerus, the various angels and other celestial beings, and fused characters, Goku Black was the most powerful. We likewise have manga Supreme Kai's speculation that Vegetto Blue (and by inference, no other characters seen before) had surpassed Beerus.

And considering that the gap between SSB and those other more powerful characters didn't look unbridgeable (SSB beating back MZ's blast and knocking out his halo, Vegeta fighting evenly with Black after the HTC), it looks to me like we're getting towards the end of Toriyama's "no plans to surpass Beerus" statement applying. It still does presently, but it probably won't by the end of this next arc.

TLDR: Who says the 6-10-15 range is gone? Everything I've seen still fits just fine.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 06, 2017 5:30 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: Yes but it was never something as fundamental as HOW GOKU'S FREAKING POWERS WORK! This is one of the most basic things you have in any story: what the character can or can't do, why and how they go about changing it.

You don't need to see the SEG to know that SS2 or 3 are stronger than SS1 or to infer that SS1 is stronger than whatever Kaio-Ken can do. The story does a good job of proving that without needing the guide books to cover up for it. You also don't need the supplementary material to get a sense for where characters stand in relation to one another. If fully relaxed Cell beat up Trunks and Vegeta, then Goku forcing him to use a considerable amount of his power alone showcases the gap between these characters well enough.

You CANNOT understand how and why Goku's powers work the way they do in Super without hunting down an obscure magazine factoid. That's bad writing.
The only thing we didn't know about in relation to Goku's power was how strong his base form was. People came to the conclusion that his base form was as strong as SSJG because the events of BOG show us the absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God. It was just a case of determining as to when, or even if, he used God ki in his base form from the events of Resurrection F and beyond. I'll definitely agree that it was left too vague for my taste, but it not to say that we don't know how Goku's power work. We know that Goku and Vegeta in their base form were really strong and they can tap into God ki and as a result turn into SSJB. It was just left ambiguous as to just how strong their base forms are. Not whether they could or couldn't use their powers, as in relation to whether they can use God ki outside of SSJB. Because they obviously can, as if they couldn't, they wouldn't be able to become Super Saiyan Blue. I mean, Super Saiyan Blue just doesn't happen by accident. You have to mix God ki with Super Saiyan, or something at the very least, to tap into the form. Goku literally said that was the case in Resurrection F.
And then Super comes in and brings back the golden line which shouldn't exist anymore if you want to take Fs explanation into account until Base Goku & Vegeta's powers randomly fluctuate from being what you assume them to be to being considerably weaker, if not the same as they were pre-God ritual/Whis-training.

The entire explanation of "Super Saiyan Blue is the power of a Saiyan who's attained the power of Super Saiyan God using Super Saiyan" goes down the crapper when the golden line comes back and you've got his Base randomly dropping & rising.
In all fairness, bringing back the SSJ forms was obviously a last minute change by Toriyama to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as is his current intention with the current power hierarchy. It caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time Toei already had several episodes scripted and several episode in the animation process based off of Toriyama's previous mentality. So they pretty much had to roll with the idea that Goku was incredibly strong in his Base form until the concept of the latest arc, the Future Trunks arc, threw an almighty spanner in the their approach to battle powers, and they had no other but to quietly retcon Goku's strength. Toyotaro's role with manga provided him way more flexibility to handle the scenario. But even he didn't handle it gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by TheMikado » Sat May 06, 2017 5:44 pm

Desassina wrote:
TheMikado wrote:Except your Cell example is incorrect. Cell was merely showing he COULD increase his power at will, same of Grade 3 Trunks and it does, but at the expense of speed and stamina. There was absolutely a correlation between the visual cue and power and Cell did not have the same level of power in his none deformed state as his bulked up form.
So what if Grade III has a con? Doesn't SSJ3 have energy loss? They're shortcuts towards one's full power past a certain threshold. Once they have reached God power, the golden haired transformations become stable shortcuts from a lower state. There's no need to play around with my correct example to find its flaws. A shortcut is a shortcut for when Cell could power up without changing.
I'm not understanding what your are trying to prove.
Are you saying that even though their base power can now scale above and below SSJ levels they should use the SSJ transformations to quickly access that power? I'm really not understanding what you are trying to say.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat May 06, 2017 5:59 pm

Tectorman wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:I won't lie, Super could have/should have done a better job at explaining this. But it's very obvious Toriyama changed his tune on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be while Super was airing and while the manga was being written. Hell, Toriyama himself outright stated that he has no plans on Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).
How so? In BoG, Goku gets up to a 6, where Beerus ultimately topped out at 7. In RoF, we have SSB above that 6 and Golden Frieza above that SSB, but still plenty of room in between 6 and 10 for those two unstated figures to fit in.

Super tells the same story to that point. Then they train for the U6 tournament, and Vegeta predicts at the beginning of the three-year training period beforehand that they will likely not make any significant gains. So they are only marginally stronger than their RoF selves (not counting manga Goku's limited ability to switch between SSG and SSB, or anime Goku's Kaioken, for the reason that they are not shared across both tellings). And of all the enemies they face, only Hit was comparable to SSB. So as of the U6 arc, they're still within the 6-10 range Toriyama originally had.

Then the Zamasu arc happens. Sans fusion characters, the only two instances of a character being at or above SSB are Goku Black when he first fights Vegeta and SSRose. Higher up than SSB but still conceivable inside the afore-mentioned 6-10 range. Then we have Atsushi Kido's statement (regarding the anime) that, except for Beerus, the various angels and other celestial beings, and fused characters, Goku Black was the most powerful. We likewise have manga Supreme Kai's speculation that Vegetto Blue (and by inference, no other characters seen before) had surpassed Beerus.

And considering that the gap between SSB and those other more powerful characters didn't look unbridgeable (SSB beating back MZ's blast and knocking out his halo, Vegeta fighting evenly with Black after the HTC), it looks to me like we're getting towards the end of Toriyama's "no plans to surpass Beerus" statement applying. It still does presently, but it probably won't by the end of this next arc.

TLDR: Who says the 6-10-15 range is gone? Everything I've seen still fits just fine.
There's no way you can convinces me that Goku and Vegeta, after training with Whis several times and training for 3 years in ROSAT, that within the 6-10-15 they didn't reach a 7 or an 8 on that scale at the very least. Because they sure as hell must have. Unless they made little to no gains in strength since Ressurection F.

The events of Future Trunks arc in the both the manga and anime completely shatter that 6-10-15 scale. But it's one event in particular that throws an almighty spanner in the works to everything about it: Vegeta's ROSAT shenanigans. Vegeta gained a huge power up after training in the ROSAT. And in the process had become stronger than SSJR Goku Black, who had previously kicked SSJB Vegeta's ass. Then you take into the fact that he fused with Goku to become Vegetto. And then on top of that, Vegetto transform into SSJB. Not only should they be stronger than Beerus in that scale, but they should be stronger than Whis. There's no way in hell that within the algorithm of the 6-10-15 power hierarchy that 8> + 8> = <15. That's fucking crazy.

I can't buy the idea that Goku and Vegeta, after how much stronger they get in the anime and the manga, that they're still not stronger than Beerus within the 6-10-15. Especially after Goku's spectacular Kaioken x10 feat against Hit, and Vegeta, Future Trunks and Goku overpowering Merged Zamasu in beam struggles. I can't believe any of that for the second. That statement from Atsushi Kido makes no sense with what we see in Super. Especially the anime where the battle powers fluctuate like mad from Episodes 57 to 66. And that's not even taking into consideration what Future Trunks was able to do on his own against Goku Black and Zamasu.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Desassina » Sat May 06, 2017 6:37 pm

TheMikado wrote:I'm not understanding what your are trying to prove.
Are you saying that even though their base power can now scale above and below SSJ levels they should use the SSJ transformations to quickly access that power? I'm really not understanding what you are trying to say.
Nah, you do understand, because that's precisely it, plus more: SSJ forms are not just quick thresholds of power, but visual clues of their power as well.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by TheMikado » Sat May 06, 2017 7:09 pm

Desassina wrote:
TheMikado wrote:I'm not understanding what your are trying to prove.
Are you saying that even though their base power can now scale above and below SSJ levels they should use the SSJ transformations to quickly access that power? I'm really not understanding what you are trying to say.
Nah, you do understand, because that's precisely it, plus more: SSJ forms are not just quick thresholds of power, but visual clues of their power as well.
Yes that's fine and well but in universe using SSJ makes zero sense in this context. Going SSJ would give no added benefit to user if they're ability to scale God ki works as a range and already surpasses it. Why would Goku in his mind as the character use SSJ if he has the ranged base power ability as you state?

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Desassina » Sat May 06, 2017 7:23 pm

It works better for us, the viewer, to know that Frost is facing Goku at that level of power. In-universe, Goku's SSJ3 showcase was to tell Trunks that he could take SSJ2 further, when SSJB hadn't been shown to him.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Tectorman » Sat May 06, 2017 10:11 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Desassina wrote:
TheMikado wrote:I'm not understanding what your are trying to prove.
Are you saying that even though their base power can now scale above and below SSJ levels they should use the SSJ transformations to quickly access that power? I'm really not understanding what you are trying to say.
Nah, you do understand, because that's precisely it, plus more: SSJ forms are not just quick thresholds of power, but visual clues of their power as well.
Yes that's fine and well but in universe using SSJ makes zero sense in this context. Going SSJ would give no added benefit to user if they're ability to scale God ki works as a range and already surpasses it. Why would Goku in his mind as the character use SSJ if he has the ranged base power ability as you state?
If he fights as a SSJ at 100%, then anyone sensing him will feel that he's at full power. That is to say, seemingly incapable of more. Were he to fight at that level as a suppressed SbG, or with a ranged base power, then he will still feel to his opponent as though he could be stronger.

Why SSJ, then? To avoid tipping his hand too early.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Tectorman » Sat May 06, 2017 10:31 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Tectorman wrote:How so? In BoG, Goku gets up to a 6, where Beerus ultimately topped out at 7. In RoF, we have SSB above that 6 and Golden Frieza above that SSB, but still plenty of room in between 6 and 10 for those two unstated figures to fit in.

Super tells the same story to that point. Then they train for the U6 tournament, and Vegeta predicts at the beginning of the three-year training period beforehand that they will likely not make any significant gains. So they are only marginally stronger than their RoF selves (not counting manga Goku's limited ability to switch between SSG and SSB, or anime Goku's Kaioken, for the reason that they are not shared across both tellings). And of all the enemies they face, only Hit was comparable to SSB. So as of the U6 arc, they're still within the 6-10 range Toriyama originally had.

Then the Zamasu arc happens. Sans fusion characters, the only two instances of a character being at or above SSB are Goku Black when he first fights Vegeta and SSRose. Higher up than SSB but still conceivable inside the afore-mentioned 6-10 range. Then we have Atsushi Kido's statement (regarding the anime) that, except for Beerus, the various angels and other celestial beings, and fused characters, Goku Black was the most powerful. We likewise have manga Supreme Kai's speculation that Vegetto Blue (and by inference, no other characters seen before) had surpassed Beerus.

And considering that the gap between SSB and those other more powerful characters didn't look unbridgeable (SSB beating back MZ's blast and knocking out his halo, Vegeta fighting evenly with Black after the HTC), it looks to me like we're getting towards the end of Toriyama's "no plans to surpass Beerus" statement applying. It still does presently, but it probably won't by the end of this next arc.

TLDR: Who says the 6-10-15 range is gone? Everything I've seen still fits just fine.
There's no way you can convinces me that Goku and Vegeta, after training with Whis several times and training for 3 years in ROSAT, that within the 6-10-15 they didn't reach a 7 or an 8 on that scale at the very least. Because they sure as hell must have. Unless they made little to no gains in strength since Ressurection F.
Strength gains of the series that I saw:

Goku gets the god ritual in BoG
Vegeta gets training from Whis
For both of them, this culminates in SSB for both. Large gain.

Post RoF, they train in the HTC for three years, Vegeta progressing almost as far as Goku (since the Copy-Water arc later has them matching) in equivalent forms. At the start, Vegeta had predicted little gains, which begs the question: can they train for three whole years while nevertheless not making significant gains? Considering that's what I think happened way back in the Android arc (I don't consider there to be much significant difference between Yardrat Goku and Androids Goku), I must call that plausible. Yes, manga Goku also develops the ability to switch from SSG to SSB, and anime Goku figures out how to reapply the Kaioken. But since the manga doesn't show that to be a straight up strength gain, I consider the benefit of the anime's Kaioken to be similarly downplayed, regardless of what numbers are shown. Small gain.

Post U6, Vegeta makes some slight improvement bringing him to match Goku. Small gain.

Midway through the Zamasu arc, Goku learns the Mafuba (not a strength gain), and Vegeta gets stronger in the HTC. The manga shows him getting the best of Goku Black not through being stronger, but by superior stamina control through the use of SSG. As Kido's interview plainly states the order to be "Beerus-Goku Black-everyone else", I must hesitate to outright accept anime Vegeta dominating Goku Black through outright power and instead consider another explanation (superior technique, better mastery of SSB compared to Black's SSR even though SSR is still stronger, greater drive, some damned thing). Small gain, but I do think that now we are getting towards the top of the 6-10 range. I also think we're getting towards the end of Goku and/or Vegeta not having surpassed Beerus.
Lord Beerus wrote:The events of Future Trunks arc in the both the manga and anime completely shatter that 6-10-15 scale. But it's one event in particular that throws an almighty spanner in the works to everything about it: Vegeta's ROSAT shenanigans. Vegeta gained a huge power up after training in the ROSAT. And in the process had become stronger than SSJR Goku Black, who had previously kicked SSJB Vegeta's ass. Then you take into the fact that he fused with Goku to become Vegetto. And then on top of that, Vegetto transform into SSJB. Not only should they be stronger than Beerus in that scale, but they should be stronger than Whis. There's no way in hell that within the algorithm of the 6-10-15 power hierarchy that 8> + 8> = <15. That's fucking crazy.
As I said above, Vegeta was not stronger than Goku Black in the manga, despite how he eventually humiliated the guy. Ergo, humiliating beatdown does not auto-equate to being stronger. And if that's the case in the manga, I think it must at least be considered true in the anime, too. And since Kido's interview is for the anime, that for me seals the deal. Vegeta, anime and manga, did not get stronger than SSR, beatdown be damned.

Did Vegetto break out of the 6-10 range? Oh, I have no problem seeing him above Beerus. Or with seeing him above Whis. But him breaking out isn't Vegeta and Goku breaking out, and I don't see them above the 10 yet.
Lord Beerus wrote:I can't buy the idea that Goku and Vegeta, after how much stronger they get in the anime and the manga, that they're still not stronger than Beerus within the 6-10-15. Especially after Goku's spectacular Kaioken x10 feat against Hit, and Vegeta, Future Trunks and Goku overpowering Merged Zamasu in beam struggles. I can't believe any of that for the second. That statement from Atsushi Kido makes no sense with what we see in Super. Especially the anime where the battle powers fluctuate like mad from Episodes 57 to 66. And that's not even taking into consideration what Future Trunks was able to do on his own against Goku Black and Zamasu.
Oh, I'll agree that Trunks makes little sense. I'm still trying to figure out what to make of that False SSB thing he had. But for the rest, I just don't see their gains as having been all that great.

The only thing that, on the surface anyway, calls for losing the 6-10-15 scale is the Kaioken x10. But since it doesn't even exist in the manga, I'm hesitant to start reassigning power levels across the franchise because of its existence. That's why I only consider it to be a marginal improvement of his overall power, regardless of what numbers were given.

[spoiler]I could go further in depth if you'd like, but the core idea is this:

SSB = God Ki + Mortal Ki
SSBKKx10 = God Ki + 10x Mortal Ki

And since the God Ki is so much greater than the Mortal Ki, the Mortal Ki, even multiplied by 10, only results in a minor difference. Like 12% or so between the two. Enough to make a difference, as shown with Vegeta vs Kaiox2 Goku back in the Saiyan Saga, but not an unbridgeable, staggering power gap. Which I believe even matches what we're shown, in that Hit doesn't have substantially less durability against SSBKKx10 than what he had against mere SSB (which is important since his Time Skip has nothing to do with his durability, and we know anime Hit never changed how powerful he has, outside of improving the Time Skip, which does not change his durability).[/spoiler]
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by TheMikado » Sun May 07, 2017 7:08 am

Tectorman wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Desassina wrote:
Nah, you do understand, because that's precisely it, plus more: SSJ forms are not just quick thresholds of power, but visual clues of their power as well.
Yes that's fine and well but in universe using SSJ makes zero sense in this context. Going SSJ would give no added benefit to user if they're ability to scale God ki works as a range and already surpasses it. Why would Goku in his mind as the character use SSJ if he has the ranged base power ability as you state?
If he fights as a SSJ at 100%, then anyone sensing him will feel that he's at full power. That is to say, seemingly incapable of more. Were he to fight at that level as a suppressed SbG, or with a ranged base power, then he will still feel to his opponent as though he could be stronger.

Why SSJ, then? To avoid tipping his hand too early.
What? Where is that ever said??? I don't think what you're describing is even a real thing in the franchise. I've never seen where going SSJ masked their true strength.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun May 07, 2017 7:24 am

Tectorman wrote:Strength gains of the series that I saw:

Goku gets the god ritual in BoG
Vegeta gets training from Whis
For both of them, this culminates in SSB for both. Large gain.

Post RoF, they train in the HTC for three years, Vegeta progressing almost as far as Goku (since the Copy-Water arc later has them matching) in equivalent forms. At the start, Vegeta had predicted little gains, which begs the question: can they train for three whole years while nevertheless not making significant gains? Considering that's what I think happened way back in the Android arc (I don't consider there to be much significant difference between Yardrat Goku and Androids Goku), I must call that plausible. Yes, manga Goku also develops the ability to switch from SSG to SSB, and anime Goku figures out how to reapply the Kaioken. But since the manga doesn't show that to be a straight up strength gain, I consider the benefit of the anime's Kaioken to be similarly downplayed, regardless of what numbers are shown. Small gain.

Post U6, Vegeta makes some slight improvement bringing him to match Goku. Small gain.

Midway through the Zamasu arc, Goku learns the Mafuba (not a strength gain), and Vegeta gets stronger in the HTC. The manga shows him getting the best of Goku Black not through being stronger, but by superior stamina control through the use of SSG. As Kido's interview plainly states the order to be "Beerus-Goku Black-everyone else", I must hesitate to outright accept anime Vegeta dominating Goku Black through outright power and instead consider another explanation (superior technique, better mastery of SSB compared to Black's SSR even though SSR is still stronger, greater drive, some damned thing). Small gain, but I do think that now we are getting towards the top of the 6-10 range. I also think we're getting towards the end of Goku and/or Vegeta not having surpassed Beerus.
Kido's comment means nothing. What we see in the show, we ultimately have to take at face value. If we see Vegeta kicking Goku Black's ass, then by all logic, he's stronger than him. Regardless of what anyone else says. I also think you really low-balling just how strong Goku and Vegeta go in the ROSAT. I mean, we later see what SSJB Vegeta was able to do in the SSJR Goku Black after Vegeta spent no more than a day in the ROSAT training by himself. I think spending three years in the ROSAT must have resulted in, at the very least, a decent boost in strength, if not a huge one. I'm sure by that stage Goku and Vegeta were at the very least stronger than Golden Freeza. Who on the 6-10-15 scale, must have been an 8 at the least considering how much Golden Freeza dominated SSJB Goku in their fight until Freeza started get gassed the longer the battle went.
Tectorman wrote:As I said above, Vegeta was not stronger than Goku Black in the manga, despite how he eventually humiliated the guy. Ergo, humiliating beatdown does not auto-equate to being stronger. And if that's the case in the manga, I think it must at least be considered true in the anime, too. And since Kido's interview is for the anime, that for me seals the deal. Vegeta, anime and manga, did not get stronger than SSR, beatdown be damned.

Did Vegetto break out of the 6-10 range? Oh, I have no problem seeing him above Beerus. Or with seeing him above Whis. But him breaking out isn't Vegeta and Goku breaking out, and I don't see them above the 10 yet.
In the manga, Vegeta uses SSJG purely because SSJB burns through stamina very quickly. He alternates between SSJG and SSJB when fighting SSJR Goku Black. It's only in short bursts that he uses SSJB when attacking Goku Black. But in those short burst, he does major damage to SSJR Goku Black and kicks his ass. SSJB Vegeta, after training the ROSAT, was stronger than SSJR Goku Black. No ifs, no buts, it's a fact. There's no way he would have able to inflict any serious damage on him in the anime or the manga, if that wasn't the case.
Tectorman wrote:Oh, I'll agree that Trunks makes little sense. I'm still trying to figure out what to make of that False SSB thing he had. But for the rest, I just don't see their gains as having been all that great.

The only thing that, on the surface anyway, calls for losing the 6-10-15 scale is the Kaioken x10. But since it doesn't even exist in the manga, I'm hesitant to start reassigning power levels across the franchise because of its existence. That's why I only consider it to be a marginal improvement of his overall power, regardless of what numbers were given.

[spoiler]I could go further in depth if you'd like, but the core idea is this:

SSB = God Ki + Mortal Ki
SSBKKx10 = God Ki + 10x Mortal Ki

And since the God Ki is so much greater than the Mortal Ki, the Mortal Ki, even multiplied by 10, only results in a minor difference. Like 12% or so between the two. Enough to make a difference, as shown with Vegeta vs Kaiox2 Goku back in the Saiyan Saga, but not an unbridgeable, staggering power gap. Which I believe even matches what we're shown, in that Hit doesn't have substantially less durability against SSBKKx10 than what he had against mere SSB (which is important since his Time Skip has nothing to do with his durability, and we know anime Hit never changed how powerful he has, outside of improving the Time Skip, which does not change his durability).[/spoiler]
God ki is by no means any stronger or any better than Mortal ki. That theory was stomped into the ground when Golden Freeza became a thing and he ended up kicking SSJB Goku's ass in Resurrection F. Plus we latter see guys like Hit and Toppo more than hold their own against SSJB Goku, in the anime at the very least. At this stage, the only thing special about God ki is that you can't sense it.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by MisteryOne » Sun May 07, 2017 7:50 am

The whole mess was indeed induced because of the completely unnecesary return of the gold forms. Seriously, can someone tell me why they did come back apart from fanservice? Beerus' power had been retconned in ROF anyway, Goku and Vegeta were still inferior to him.

It would have been interesting to have Goku and Vegeta use their bases in most battles (including U6 arc) and only using Blue against real threats.

I would love to subscribe to the two base theory, but I can't find a decent in-universe explanation as to why would they use their weaker bases, there is no visual change between the two bases which seems odd, and the fight with Toppo contradicts it. Its not like Toei is following a power scale either, just watch the lastest episode. Characters train offscreen and just get a lot stronger.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun May 07, 2017 8:11 am

MisteryOne wrote:The whole mess was indeed induced because of the completely unnecesary return of the gold forms. Seriously, can someone tell me why they did come back apart from fanservice? Beerus' power had been retconned in ROF anyway, Goku and Vegeta were still inferior to him.

It would have been interesting to have Goku and Vegeta use their bases in most battles (including U6 arc) and only using Blue against real threats.

I would love to subscribe to the two base theory, but I can't find a decent in-universe explanation as to why would they use their weaker bases, there is no visual change between the two bases which seems odd, and the fight with Toppo contradicts it. Its not like Toei is following a power scale either, just watch the lastest episode. Characters train offscreen and just get a lot stronger.
If you want to blame anyone for this mess, blame Toriyama. It was ultimately his decision to bring back the golden forms in the new material, despite previously saying that Goku wouldn't be using them that much anymore. But Toei and Toyotaro didn't know about this change until very late in the game, because both and the manga were still portraying the idea that Goku in his base form was as strong as SSJG, or was at the very least insanely strong, until the new material started.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by TheMikado » Sun May 07, 2017 8:18 am

^ the manga didn't give them super strong bases.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun May 07, 2017 8:23 am

TheMikado wrote:^ the manga didn't give them super strong bases.
Yes, it did:
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by TheMikado » Sun May 07, 2017 8:32 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
TheMikado wrote:^ the manga didn't give them super strong bases.
Yes, it did:
[spoiler]Image
Image[/spoiler]
How does that mean a super strong base? Vegeta could be using the "suppressed" SSB that we keep citing.
I'm fairly certain that's the only panel that may even partially imply that. The manga is incredibly consistent with depicting their base forms as weaker than SSG, I wouldn't put too much stock into a single panel that needs to be be further interpreted beyond what it's showing which is Vegeta went SSB and hurt Goku in a sparring match. I don't think you can really pull his relative base strength for this single panel and should be supported with other evidence.

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