I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

[Bullza]

But an unknown amount of time passed between Trunks fighting Dabura to him fighting Goku. Goku also didn't need to use SSJ2 against him, he just used it to match him.

Are you saying Trunks is god level too? Goku obviously needed SS2, otherwise he wouldn't have gone SS3.

But Goku was trying to find out strong Black was in comparison to himself. He only turned into a Super Saiyan 3 so that Trunks could compare that power to Blacks. He didn't turn into a Super Saiyan Blue because Trunks couldn't have sensed that so Super Saiyan 3 was the next best thing.

And yeah I guess Trunks could be God level. When he first showed up the plot meant he was almost as strong as Goku and now that's happened again. God (SSJG) level isn't special anymore just like how Super Saiyan was special at first being the most powerful being in the universe and then before you know it Piccolo was compared to it.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't make Copy Vegeta move when he had his guard down. SSJ2 Trunks was able to push SSJ2 Goku back when he had his guard up.

He was also complimented by Beerus and Goku. He also wasn't instantly stomped by Black who was complimented by Whis.

[Doctor.]

But an unknown amount of time passed between Trunks fighting Dabura to him fighting Goku. Goku also didn't need to use SSJ2 against him, he just used it to match him.

Are you saying Trunks is god level too? Goku obviously needed SS2, otherwise he wouldn't have gone SS3.

But Goku was trying to find out strong Black was in comparison to himself. He only turned into a Super Saiyan 3 so that Trunks could compare that power to Blacks. He didn't turn into a Super Saiyan Blue because Trunks couldn't have sensed that so Super Saiyan 3 was the next best thing.

And yeah I guess Trunks could be God level. When he first showed up the plot meant he was almost as strong as Goku and now that's happened again. God (SSJG) level isn't special anymore just like how Super Saiyan was special at first being the most powerful being in the universe and then before you know it Piccolo was compared to it.

SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't make Copy Vegeta move when he had his guard down. SSJ2 Trunks was able to push SSJ2 Goku back when he had his guard up.

He was also complimented by Beerus and Goku. He also wasn't instantly stomped by Black who was complimented by Whis.

We know that Trunks fought Dabra not along ago because he had his current design when he did it, also he barely unlocked SS2. There's simply no way he's God level, the power scaling in the series is just inconsistent and the two-base theory is needed.

Whis and Beerus also complimented SS3 Goku, so that's not anything to brag about.

[Kishido]

You know what's funny about people not being able to sense god ki... it was a thing at the beginnign but how could Frieza do it? Or did he just cool blue hair and I THINK you are super strong?

How could Hit do it after he noticed Vegeta changed against Cabba?

[Doctor.]

You know what's funny about people not being able to sense god ki... it was a thing at the beginnign but how could Frieza do it? Or did he just cool blue hair and I THINK you are super strong?

How could Hit do it after he noticed Vegeta changed against Cabba?

It was heavily implied that it's a skill you can learn.

[Kishido]

You know what's funny about people not being able to sense god ki... it was a thing at the beginnign but how could Frieza do it? Or did he just cool blue hair and I THINK you are super strong?

How could Hit do it after he noticed Vegeta changed against Cabba?

It was heavily implied that it's a skill you can learn.

Yeah so Golden Frieza who had no clue about it suddenly learned it... And we auto think that Hit has god ki sensing skills as well.

Seriously... The power scaling AND the explaining are really bad at super... So people try to come up with "theories" to explain it... Even if it wil never be stated.

I do not bale them... But it won't change a thing.

[Doctor.]

You know what's funny about people not being able to sense god ki... it was a thing at the beginnign but how could Frieza do it? Or did he just cool blue hair and I THINK you are super strong?

How could Hit do it after he noticed Vegeta changed against Cabba?

It was heavily implied that it's a skill you can learn.

Yeah so Golden Frieza who had no clue about it suddenly learned it... And we auto think that Hit has god ki sensing skills as well.

Seriously... The power scaling AND the explaining are really bad at super... So people try to come up with "theories" to explain it... Even if it wil never be stated.

I do not bale them... But it won't change a thing.

Freeza learning it is farfetched, but I see no reason as to why Hit can't learn it. His power is already God-level to begin with.

[Anime Kitten]

Excuse me... this is an opinion thread, not a debate thread. Might want to carry over the conversation somewhere else? Thanks!

[nite_jay]

You know what's funny about people not being able to sense god ki... it was a thing at the beginnign but how could Frieza do it? Or did he just cool blue hair and I THINK you are super strong?

How could Hit do it after he noticed Vegeta changed against Cabba?

It was heavily implied that it's a skill you can learn.

Yeah so Golden Frieza who had no clue about it suddenly learned it...

Vegeta suddenly learned how to sense normal ki on Earth in his fight against Goku. And with how strong Golden Freeza is, I don't think it's too farfetched for Freeza to learn how to sense God Ki so quickly, even if it's still kind of an asspull.

[Bullza]

We know that Trunks fought Dabra not along ago because he had his current design when he did it, also he barely unlocked SS2. There's simply no way he's God level, the power scaling in the series is just inconsistent and the two-base theory is needed.

Whis and Beerus also complimented SS3 Goku, so that's not anything to brag about.

We have no idea when he changed his outfit. He could have changed it the very next day after beating Cell. There's almost 10 years between his fight with Dabura and his fight with Black for him to improve.

When someone like Cabba is God level there's no reason why Trunks can't be.

Super Saiyan Goku is God level for a fact. Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku for a fact. Black did not instantly steamroll Trunks and he was able to push back Super Saiyan 2 Goku. That makes him God level like pretty much all the other new characters are now.

There's nothing that inconsistent about it, it's odd that he reached that power somehow but that's how it goes in this series.

Being as the two base theory factually doesn't exist then this is just how it's presented to us.

[MaxZ]

The newest episode also showed there was nothing to this two base theory.

Something that was argued for it was that Super Saiyan Blue was Goku or Vegeta as a Super Saiyan with the God Ki switched on and so Goku or Vegeta as a regular Super Saiyan was them as a Super Saiyan with God Ki switched off making them at regular levels (like Cell level).

However Goku turned into a Super Saiyan (or 2) against Zamasu to which Gowasa said that Goku's power rivals the God of Destruction so they are not at regular levels at all. Being as how Black, Magetta, Super Saiyan Cabba and to a lesser extent Frost were all sort of comparable to Super Saiyan (or 2) Goku or Vegeta then they too are certainly not at Cell or Buu arc levels.

Additionally Super Saiyan still makes them dozens of times stronger so there don't appear to be as strong as Super Saiyan God but obviously they are still much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

I don't think a Kaioshin can even comprehend how astronomically strong Beerus is, he just sensed an enormous power level and likened it to Beerus'. I wouldn't put much weight to the statement.

[Bullza]

I don't think a Kaioshin can even comprehend how astronomically strong Beerus is, he just sensed an enormous power level and likened it to Beerus'. I wouldn't put much weight to the statement.

He might not be referring to Beerus, he could have been talking about Universe 10's God of Destruction.

What was said was mainly just a second confirmation that Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 Goku is not at the regular levels he was at during the Buu arc which was something we already knew from Super Saiyan Goku's fight with Beerus.

Their base level is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and their Super Saiyan level is roughly as strong as Super Saiyan God. That's it.

[MaxZ]

I don't think a Kaioshin can even comprehend how astronomically strong Beerus is, he just sensed an enormous power level and likened it to Beerus'. I wouldn't put much weight to the statement.

He might not be referring to Beerus, he could have been talking about Universe 10's God of Destruction.

What was said was mainly just a second confirmation that Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 Goku is not at the regular levels he was at during the Buu arc which was something we already knew from Super Saiyan Goku's fight with Beerus.

Their base level is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and their Super Saiyan level is roughly as strong as Super Saiyan God. That's it.

if their super saiyan form is as strong as SSJG then super Saiyan blue would provide no benefit

[Bullza]

I don't think a Kaioshin can even comprehend how astronomically strong Beerus is, he just sensed an enormous power level and likened it to Beerus'. I wouldn't put much weight to the statement.

He might not be referring to Beerus, he could have been talking about Universe 10's God of Destruction.

What was said was mainly just a second confirmation that Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 Goku is not at the regular levels he was at during the Buu arc which was something we already knew from Super Saiyan Goku's fight with Beerus.

Their base level is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and their Super Saiyan level is roughly as strong as Super Saiyan God. That's it.

if their super saiyan form is as strong as SSJG then super Saiyan blue would provide no benefit

Why wouldn't it? Super Saiyan is as strong as Super Saiyan God which we know from the Goku vs Beerus rematch and Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than their Super Saiyan 3 which we know from Vegeta saying that it's the highest level.

[Hitiro]

We know that Trunks fought Dabra not along ago because he had his current design when he did it, also he barely unlocked SS2. There's simply no way he's God level, the power scaling in the series is just inconsistent and the two-base theory is needed.

Whis and Beerus also complimented SS3 Goku, so that's not anything to brag about.

This is an incredibly big assumption on your part that Trunks fought Dabra not long ago. Just because his current design is shown in the flashback does not mean that it wasn't years ago. There's no way he is God level, I agree. But Goku and Vegeta are not God level in any forms other than SSJB and even then their SSJB forms are still over 10x weaker than Beerus. The power scaling is fine and the two-base theory is not needed. What we have to come to terms with is that sometime after the fight between Beerus, Goku returned to more normal levels of power. He still received a huge upgrade to his base form but nothing compared to him fighting at God level while being a SSJ. Because both the two-base theory and the single-base theory fall down if Goku's SSJ form is still on par with SSJG. As I have pointed out before SSJG is greater than the Rage Vegeta who pushed Beerus to 10% so if SSJ is on par or equal to that then SSJB is even greater and thus KKx10 plus SSJB would push Goku well past Beerus 100% I mean just assuming that Beerus would be pushed to 11% to beat SSJB would mean that Beerus would require 110% if Goku uses KKx10 on top of SSJB. The only way we can have Goku still below Beerus is to have all his forms be weaker than his previous SSJG.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Once again, I'm going to remind everyone that the original poster simply wants the opinion of his/her fellow users on the subject. It is not a place for debate, so please take the discussions to the relevant threads.

[Tectorman]

We know that Trunks fought Dabra not along ago because he had his current design when he did it, also he barely unlocked SS2. There's simply no way he's God level, the power scaling in the series is just inconsistent and the two-base theory is needed.

Whis and Beerus also complimented SS3 Goku, so that's not anything to brag about.

This is an incredibly big assumption on your part that Trunks fought Dabra not long ago. Just because his current design is shown in the flashback does not mean that it wasn't years ago. There's no way he is God level, I agree. But Goku and Vegeta are not God level in any forms other than SSJB and even then their SSJB forms are still over 10x weaker than Beerus. The power scaling is fine and the two-base theory is not needed. What we have to come to terms with is that sometime after the fight between Beerus, Goku returned to more normal levels of power. He still received a huge upgrade to his base form but nothing compared to him fighting at God level while being a SSJ. Because both the two-base theory and the single-base theory fall down if Goku's SSJ form is still on par with SSJG. As I have pointed out before SSJG is greater than the Rage Vegeta who pushed Beerus to 10% so if SSJ is on par or equal to that then SSJB is even greater and thus KKx10 plus SSJB would push Goku well past Beerus 100% I mean just assuming that Beerus would be pushed to 11% to beat SSJB would mean that Beerus would require 110% if Goku uses KKx10 on top of SSJB. The only way we can have Goku still below Beerus is to have all his forms be weaker than his previous SSJG.

I have a big issue with the bolded.

Your notion that Goku at some point lost the SSJG power-up has evidence that can be interpretted in favor of it. But it's not said in the series.

The two-base theory also has evidence that can be interpretted in favor of it (for example, the fact that it was never said that Goku lost the SSJG power-up). And it is likewise not said in the series.

Do you get why there might be an issue with accepting a theory that has evidence but has never been directly supported on screen while we're simultaneously expected to reject a theory that has evidence but has never been directly supported on screen?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I have a big issue with the bolded.
*snip*

C'mon guys, this is getting a little ridiculous. This is the fifth time a freebie request has been made to respect the intention of the topic creator, with the previous one being immediately prior to the post I'm quoting. If you guys want to discuss and debate points posted by your fellow members, you're more than welcome to to quote their post and continue the discussion in one of the more appropriate threads for Super power levels or how the transformations do/don't work. There are a plethora of them in the Super section of the forums.

However, this topic was specifically created for members to state their own thoughts on the presented subject. That's it. Future posts derailing the thread will (unfortunately) be met with a warning, which can and will add up to temporary or permanent bans from the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

After the latest episode, it appears that all 3 continuities (movie, manga, anime) follow the same rules when it comes to absorbing Super Saiyan God, and the 2 base theory seems to be true. SS2 Trunks, who rivals SS2 Goku, can't sense god ki, while base Goku after he absorbed the power of SSG could sense god ki, along with base Vegeta, Freeza, and Hit, who are all in the level of gods.

Turning into Super Saiyan when they use the power of SSG in their base form doesn't appear to make them stronger (as seen in both movie & anime versions of the fight with Beerus), while after the BoG movie/arc, Goku & Vegeta seem to get the same ordinary boosts whenever they turn SS/2/3 (during the whole U6 arc & during the Future Trunks arc so far) but they only turn into SSB whenever they appear to be on the level of gods in their base forms (in Whis' training, vs Freeza, vs Monaka-Beerus, and vs Copy-Vegeta), and they also display an aura in their base forms in all of these cases (yes, I know that this normally doesn't mean anything since they have auras since early DBZ, but maybe in Super they use it now for Goku & Vegeta to tell us that they are using SSG power).

Yes, it hasn't been stated that there are 2 base forms anywhere so far (though this is a thing in video-games), but then again, they have barely explained anything about absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God. But since nothing is confirmed yet, only time will tell in the end.

[ryan s]

I would say the latest episode disproves the two base theory

Episode 22 Vegeta says "is this godly ki? the pressure is immense"
Episode 54 Trunks "this overwhelming pressure"

proving Vegeta did not have god ki in his base and there is no reason to assume this has changed since episode 22 in my opinion

its implied frieza could sense god ki yet he clearly did not have it as everyone could sense him

Its implied Goku stacks SSG on to SSJ and does not have God ki until he is SSGSS and the same is implied for Vegeta

only in things like DB Heros have i saw the two base theory and they are not a good source in my opinion

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I would say the latest episode disproves the two base theory

Episode 22 Vegeta says "is this godly ki? the pressure is immense"
Episode 54 Trunks "this overwhelming pressure"

proving Vegeta did not have God ki in his base and there is no reason to assume this has changed since episode 22 in my opinion

its implied frieza could sense God ki yet he clearly did not have it as everyone could sense him

Its implied Goku stacks SSG on to SSJ and does not have God ki until he is SSGSS

Base Vegeta could sense god ki after his training with Whis, and it was stated that both he & Goku could do it because they had reached a certain level of power. SS2 Trunks, who rivals SS2 Goku, couldn't sense god ki... do the math.