If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by Captain Strawberry » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:23 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: I know, that's exactly what I'm referring to, he won't be strong enough to use Kaioken x20 against Frieza since he won't get his ass kicked by his previous enemies so he won't get Zenkais, his base would then be only about 150k or so rather than the 3 million it was in canon. Then the Kaioken x20 combined with the x10 Kamehameha would multiply his base by 200 and bring him up to 30 million, which is only half as strong as his canon x20 Kamehameha against Frieza.
Plus, as I said earlier he can't even use Kaioken x20 since he's much weaker in this scenario.
He already did use Kaioken x20 against Frieza.
In canon, but not in OP's scenario. In canon his base was at 3 million, but here it would only be around 150k, so his max would be x10.
Well I am going by the Canon scenario
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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:27 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:
He already did use Kaioken x20 against Frieza.
In canon, but not in OP's scenario. In canon his base was at 3 million, but here it would only be around 150k, so his max would be x10.
Well I am going by the Canon scenario
But the events leading up to that scenario in canon would not occur if Goku had the x10 Kamehameha since the start of the series since he could easily kill Nappa, Vegeta and the Ginyu force with it so he would get no Zenkais.

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by Captain Strawberry » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:33 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote: In canon, but not in OP's scenario. In canon his base was at 3 million, but here it would only be around 150k, so his max would be x10.
Well I am going by the Canon scenario
But the events leading up to that scenario in canon would not occur if Goku had the x10 Kamehameha since the start of the series since he could easily kill Nappa, Vegeta and the Ginyu force with it so he would get no Zenkais.

Let's not focus on the nitty details, I was thinking more on the mindset, he just magically has it
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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:36 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:
Well I am going by the Canon scenario
But the events leading up to that scenario in canon would not occur if Goku had the x10 Kamehameha since the start of the series since he could easily kill Nappa, Vegeta and the Ginyu force with it so he would get no Zenkais.

Let's not focus on the nitty details, I was thinking more on the mindset, he just magically has it
If he magically obtains it mid battle he can take down every opponent in the series besides Raditz.

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:31 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Alright here's Part 2 of what I think would occur:
They probably wished Piccolo back using the Dragon Balls, but he'd most likely be useless vs Final Form Frieza even after fusing with Nail, but he could go save Bulma and get her off the planet while Goku fights Frieza. Now, since Frieza isn't as afraid of Goku as in canon, he probably won't blow up the planet but the Namekians may still choose to head to Earth anyway for safety.

Even if the planet doesn't blow up, Goku will still have to take Ginyu's ship to Yardrat since Bulma will have left with his ship and Frieza's ship is not fit for flight.
Let's say Vegeta survived his encounter with Goku but died to Frieza, he probably gets wished back. Now he's far stronger than Goku's base due to being beaten up so much, so let's place him at 2 million. However Goku also will have powered up considerably from obtaining 2 new transformations + getting his ass kicked by Frieza, so after his Zenkai and training on Yardrat for 20 months he comes back to Earth at 4 million. At around this time Trunks shows up but since Frieza's already dead and King Cold has no idea that Goku is from Earth, there's no threat for him to take care of so he just stays hidden until he can talk to Goku and spar with him for a bit, he also gives him the heart medicine and tells him to train for 3 years.

What happens next depends on how what forms Goku has, if he beat Frieza in base they all die to the androids and Trunks never even exists, so let's talk about SSJ and SSJ2.

Goku spends the 3 years mastering his new form(s) and achieves tremendous power, so when 19 and 20 show up, he easily overloads and kills 19 with the 10x Kamehameha, 20 books it to the other androids and releases 17 and 18, who promptly kill him and release 16. Now, if Goku only has access to SSJ he dies here due to the heart virus, but if he has SSJ2 he manages to defeat all 3 androids before the succumbs to the virus, but collapses before he can finish them. At this point none of the other Z fighters are even close to Goku or the androids so they can't do anything either. Someone takes Goku home for his medicine and Piccolo decides to go fuse with Kami and investigate Cell.

Now, this is where it gets real interesting. Since Cell knows Goku's moves, he also has access to the 10x Kamehameha, though it's far inferior to the real thing, so let's say it's only a 3x Kamehameha. This is still more than enough to deal with Piccolo, so he wrecks Piccolo right there an absorbs him, becoming far more powerful, he also absorbs far more cities than in canon since he no longer has to worry about getting caught since he's already surpassed all the Z fighters except for SS2 Goku.
Ultimately, he reaches a power level as high as canon Semi Perfect Cell after clearing out several cities before he decides to head for the androids.

He now heads for the androids and this time, 16 can do nothing to stop him and gets wrecked immediately. Tenshinhan shows up and tries to Kikoho Cell, but he gets killed and absorbed, by this point Goku hasn't yet fully recovered, but he becomes enraged after sensing Tenshinhan die and ITs to Cell's location right as he's about to absorb 17! The odds are stacked against Goku since he also has to save the androids from getting absorbed while at the same time fighting Cell, so now he have sick SS2 Goku vs Super Imperfect Cell.

I'm gonna continue this later in my next post, I'll also list some power levels.
TheUltimateNinja, could you please do at least one more part of this? I really do enjoy reading your many posts about this specific topic. For this is pretty much you at your absolute best.

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by TobyS » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:09 pm

X10 kamehameha was retarded gt shit that made no sense.

“this will be x10 it's “normal” power”

There is no “normal” power. You can put pretty much as much or as little ki into and attack as you want.

Putting 10x more energy into an attack then you otherwise would would take up 10x more energy... You'd then have less left for the rest of the battle.

You still have the same amount of finite ki to spend.

Completely nonsensical.
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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:14 pm

Personal headcanon is that x10 Kamehameha is actually Goku using a x10 Kaiohken but modified in only charging the Kamehameha.
Said headcanon is born mostly due the red color of the Ki used for the technique.

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by Pantalones » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:13 pm

Personal headcanon is that x10 Kamehameha is actually Goku using a x10 Kaiohken but modified in only charging the Kamehameha.
Said headcanon is born mostly due the red color of the Ki used for the technique.
That... actually makes a lot more sense than "Goku comes up with a new version of the Kamehameha that's randomly 10 times stronger than the version he was using before, and mentions that every time he uses it rather than just calling it a regular Kamehameha like he's always done since the start of Z."

Plus, GT is following the Z anime which had the filler scenes with Super Kaio-ken... so we know that in GT the combination of Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken is possible, if only in very short spurts (unlike in Super where Goku wasn't able to combine them at all until he got Blue, and even then it was potentially dangerous.) Using it just to charge a technique rather than infusing that extra energy into his own body probably helps counterattack the strain of Kaio-ken, too.

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by SaiyanKingMike » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:17 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Alright here's Part 2 of what I think would occur:
They probably wished Piccolo back using the Dragon Balls, but he'd most likely be useless vs Final Form Frieza even after fusing with Nail, but he could go save Bulma and get her off the planet while Goku fights Frieza. Now, since Frieza isn't as afraid of Goku as in canon, he probably won't blow up the planet but the Namekians may still choose to head to Earth anyway for safety.

Even if the planet doesn't blow up, Goku will still have to take Ginyu's ship to Yardrat since Bulma will have left with his ship and Frieza's ship is not fit for flight.
Let's say Vegeta survived his encounter with Goku but died to Frieza, he probably gets wished back. Now he's far stronger than Goku's base due to being beaten up so much, so let's place him at 2 million. However Goku also will have powered up considerably from obtaining 2 new transformations + getting his ass kicked by Frieza, so after his Zenkai and training on Yardrat for 20 months he comes back to Earth at 4 million. At around this time Trunks shows up but since Frieza's already dead and King Cold has no idea that Goku is from Earth, there's no threat for him to take care of so he just stays hidden until he can talk to Goku and spar with him for a bit, he also gives him the heart medicine and tells him to train for 3 years.

What happens next depends on how what forms Goku has, if he beat Frieza in base they all die to the androids and Trunks never even exists, so let's talk about SSJ and SSJ2.

Goku spends the 3 years mastering his new form(s) and achieves tremendous power, so when 19 and 20 show up, he easily overloads and kills 19 with the 10x Kamehameha, 20 books it to the other androids and releases 17 and 18, who promptly kill him and release 16. Now, if Goku only has access to SSJ he dies here due to the heart virus, but if he has SSJ2 he manages to defeat all 3 androids before the succumbs to the virus, but collapses before he can finish them. At this point none of the other Z fighters are even close to Goku or the androids so they can't do anything either. Someone takes Goku home for his medicine and Piccolo decides to go fuse with Kami and investigate Cell.

Now, this is where it gets real interesting. Since Cell knows Goku's moves, he also has access to the 10x Kamehameha, though it's far inferior to the real thing, so let's say it's only a 3x Kamehameha. This is still more than enough to deal with Piccolo, so he wrecks Piccolo right there an absorbs him, becoming far more powerful, he also absorbs far more cities than in canon since he no longer has to worry about getting caught since he's already surpassed all the Z fighters except for SS2 Goku.
Ultimately, he reaches a power level as high as canon Semi Perfect Cell after clearing out several cities before he decides to head for the androids.

He now heads for the androids and this time, 16 can do nothing to stop him and gets wrecked immediately. Tenshinhan shows up and tries to Kikoho Cell, but he gets killed and absorbed, by this point Goku hasn't yet fully recovered, but he becomes enraged after sensing Tenshinhan die and ITs to Cell's location right as he's about to absorb 17! The odds are stacked against Goku since he also has to save the androids from getting absorbed while at the same time fighting Cell, so now he have sick SS2 Goku vs Super Imperfect Cell.

I'm gonna continue this later in my next post, I'll also list some power levels.

Really enjoying this. This would be very interesting what if scenario. Would Gohan learn the 10x Kamehameha i wonder from Goku as well. Plus since Vegeta knows about ssj2 earlier I wonder if he train harder to try to achieve it

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:09 pm

SaiyanKingMike wrote: Really enjoying this. This would be very interesting what if scenario. Would Gohan learn the 10x Kamehameha i wonder from Goku as well. Plus since Vegeta knows about ssj2 earlier I wonder if he train harder to try to achieve it
Steven Bloodriver wrote: TheUltimateNinja, could you please do at least one more part of this? I really do enjoy reading your many posts about this specific topic. For this is pretty much you at your absolute best.
Alright then.

We left off at Goku arriving to fight Cell.

In this timeline Goku never had time to tell Vegeta and Trunks about the time chamber, so he'll have to handle things himself.

Even if he wasn't sick, Goku still wouldn't be a match for Cell even with SS2, he'd just die in a straight fight. However Goku could still come out on top using strategy. He'd first hold Cell off long enough for the androids to escape, then he'd trick Cell with the Instant Kamehameha x10 and blow him to bits. Imperfect Cell's regeneration didn't seem to be that good, so he probably dies from this.

Assuming he survives however, there a few things that could happen.

By this point Goku has used up too much energy to continue fighting, so what happens next depends on whether or not 16 is still alive. If 16 is dead, Goku gives his life trying to stop Cell, but it's futile, Cell manages to absorb the androids in the end. In this timeline there's no remote either, so he's guaranteed to succeed. Cell becomes Perfect and destroys the Earth.

If 16 is alive, he could drive the weakened Cell away although he's not strong enough to kill him. 16 would realize that he stands no chance once Cell recovers so he decides to let Goku live since he's the only one who can face Cell. By this point Goku has fully recovered from his illness, but Cell has gotten even stronger by absorbing more people. Goku realizes the only way to win is to use the time chamber, but he can't go in himself since if he's gone Cell would just absorb the androids.

He tells the others about the situation and has Trunks and Vegeta enter the time chamber while he stays outside to protect the androids. Goku decides he has to go fight Cell while they're still somewhat close in power, if Cell keeps absorbing people he'd be able to easily overpower Goku and absorb the androids. He follows Cell around the world, but Cell hides his ki and evades detection, because of this he's unable to absorb that many people since every time he starts absorbing a few people, Goku immediately teleports to his location forcing him to hide again.

Over the course of a day Cell still manages to absorb countless people and becomes strong enough to easily beat Goku. Goku is knocked out after a long fight, just as Cell is about to kill him, he gets blasted away by Vegeta. 24 hours have passed. Though this Cell is stronger than canon Semi-Perfect Cell, he's still no match for Grade 2 or possibly SS2 Vegeta.If Vegeta gets too cocky and lets Cell attack him, he gets finished off by Cell's Kamehameha x3, then Trunks steps in and kills Cell. If Vegeta doesn't do this, the fight plays out the same as in canon and Vegeta lets him absorb the androids.

Perfect Cell is formed, and quite a bit stronger than before.

Well, that's part 3.

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by Sonofman » Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:40 pm

10x Kamehameha is basically a Kaio-Ken powered up state x10 multipler in my opinion of how it works. Other-wise, it's probably just a Super Kamehameha with a new title and new color.
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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:18 am

Pantalones wrote:
Personal headcanon is that x10 Kamehameha is actually Goku using a x10 Kaiohken but modified in only charging the Kamehameha.
Said headcanon is born mostly due the red color of the Ki used for the technique.
That... actually makes a lot more sense than "Goku comes up with a new version of the Kamehameha that's randomly 10 times stronger than the version he was using before, and mentions that every time he uses it rather than just calling it a regular Kamehameha like he's always done since the start of Z."

Plus, GT is following the Z anime which had the filler scenes with Super Kaio-ken... so we know that in GT the combination of Super Saiyan and Kaio-ken is possible, if only in very short spurts (unlike in Super where Goku wasn't able to combine them at all until he got Blue, and even then it was potentially dangerous.) Using it just to charge a technique rather than infusing that extra energy into his own body probably helps counterattack the strain of Kaio-ken, too.
To be fair,Goku only used Super Kaiohken while dead, which is a condition that reduces the stress on the body by A LOT(cfr. Super Saiyan 3)

unlike the other SS transformations which are only related to Ki manipulation, SS4 causes massive body modifications.
Being basically a Compact Golden Ozaru, it's reasonable to believe his baseline physical stats got a boost, resulting in a physique strong enough to sustain a limited\focused Kaiohken for the duration of the Kamehameha.
Also: Super Saiyan is basically Kaiohken as transformation. Using both would probably square the body stress.
But as said before, SS4 is different: beside increasing the aggressiveness of the user, it wasn't described as a explosive energy state like the others(IIRC).

So: Not Already Detonating Ki+Stronger Body make a "limited use" Kaiohken possible.

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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:31 am

Kamehameha X10 easily works like Kaioken since it was also very draining.
Goku fires 10 times stronger Kamehameha but uses a lot of energy for that.
Although it wasn't red until Super 17 saga, its color obviously references kaioken.

Also, Goku can control its power since when he fired "Kamehameha X10" at Naturon he said that this attack wasn't even Kamehameha X5 because Goku was holding back.
So he can also shoot red Kamehameha X5 which is actually ultimate attack of SSJ Goku in DBGT GameBoy Advance game.
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Re: If the 10x Kamehameha was used instead of the normal and Super Kamehameha...

Post by Perfectionist-Cell » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:00 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
SaiyanKingMike wrote: Really enjoying this. This would be very interesting what if scenario. Would Gohan learn the 10x Kamehameha i wonder from Goku as well. Plus since Vegeta knows about ssj2 earlier I wonder if he train harder to try to achieve it
Steven Bloodriver wrote: TheUltimateNinja, could you please do at least one more part of this? I really do enjoy reading your many posts about this specific topic. For this is pretty much you at your absolute best.
Alright then.

We left off at Goku arriving to fight Cell.

In this timeline Goku never had time to tell Vegeta and Trunks about the time chamber, so he'll have to handle things himself.

Even if he wasn't sick, Goku still wouldn't be a match for Cell even with SS2, he'd just die in a straight fight. However Goku could still come out on top using strategy. He'd first hold Cell off long enough for the androids to escape, then he'd trick Cell with the Instant Kamehameha x10 and blow him to bits. Imperfect Cell's regeneration didn't seem to be that good, so he probably dies from this.

Assuming he survives however, there a few things that could happen.

By this point Goku has used up too much energy to continue fighting, so what happens next depends on whether or not 16 is still alive. If 16 is dead, Goku gives his life trying to stop Cell, but it's futile, Cell manages to absorb the androids in the end. In this timeline there's no remote either, so he's guaranteed to succeed. Cell becomes Perfect and destroys the Earth.

If 16 is alive, he could drive the weakened Cell away although he's not strong enough to kill him. 16 would realize that he stands no chance once Cell recovers so he decides to let Goku live since he's the only one who can face Cell. By this point Goku has fully recovered from his illness, but Cell has gotten even stronger by absorbing more people. Goku realizes the only way to win is to use the time chamber, but he can't go in himself since if he's gone Cell would just absorb the androids.

He tells the others about the situation and has Trunks and Vegeta enter the time chamber while he stays outside to protect the androids. Goku decides he has to go fight Cell while they're still somewhat close in power, if Cell keeps absorbing people he'd be able to easily overpower Goku and absorb the androids. He follows Cell around the world, but Cell hides his ki and evades detection, because of this he's unable to absorb that many people since every time he starts absorbing a few people, Goku immediately teleports to his location forcing him to hide again.

Over the course of a day Cell still manages to absorb countless people and becomes strong enough to easily beat Goku. Goku is knocked out after a long fight, just as Cell is about to kill him, he gets blasted away by Vegeta. 24 hours have passed. Though this Cell is stronger than canon Semi-Perfect Cell, he's still no match for Grade 2 or possibly SS2 Vegeta.If Vegeta gets too cocky and lets Cell attack him, he gets finished off by Cell's Kamehameha x3, then Trunks steps in and kills Cell. If Vegeta doesn't do this, the fight plays out the same as in canon and Vegeta lets him absorb the androids.

Perfect Cell is formed, and quite a bit stronger than before.

Well, that's part 3.

Please do a part 4 I'm really enjoying this.

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