How strong the Supreme Kai really is?/How strong is Buu Arc Piccolo? Why it is believed he surpassed the Cell Jr?

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How strong the Supreme Kai really is?/How strong is Buu Arc Piccolo? Why it is believed he surpassed the Cell Jr?

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:07 pm

How strong the Supreme Kai really is?

His strenght was always a wonder to some people. The only thing I know it's stated it was that he's much stronger than Piccolo (stated in the Daizenshuu and manga), but much weaker than Dabura (manga as well).

Piccolo (Buu) < Supreme Kai < Dabura

This is obvious.

Now, Supreme Kai, in comparison to SSJ Goku, Gohan and Vegeta, was weaker than them, he was scared when SSJ Goku was threatening him throwing him a ki blast if he doesn't fight Majin Vegeta. There's also SSJ Gohan fighting Dabura, he was a bit below Dabura, but they were still able to make a good fight. But Supreme Kai was really afraid of Dabura, and even in the Super manga, Dabura threw a ki blast on him and was defeated nearly easily. Therefore, Supreme Kai can't be stronger than any SSJ. SSJ Vegeta would be stronger than Dabura, based on his statements, and Goku is stronger than both of them.
Now you can say that he was SSJ2 against Dabura. I have no problem with that. Why? Because it doesn't contradict Supreme Kai being weaker than the SSJs. But again, why I say that? Here's the answer: Kibito said that none of the Kaioshins were able to take out the Z sword. And Gohan, only transformed into a SSJ, was able to take out the Z sword after some effort. That gives him the edge over the Supreme Kai.

Piccolo (Buu) << Supreme Kai << SSJ Gohan (Buu)

Now we need to compare him with the Cell Games tier fighters.

SSJ Goku (Cell), who's obviously below SSJ Gohan (Cell). We don't know how much strong Gohan was compared to Goku. However, it is possible that this Goku is comparable to Gohan's Buu arc counterpart. How do we compare Goku from the Cell Games to the Supreme Kai? Well, it was shown that Gohan (Buu) as a SSJ1, was able to take out the Z sword, yet Supreme Kai couldn't, so if Gohan (Buu) is around Goku (Cell), then Supreme Kai can not surpass Cell Games Goku.
How do we compare Supreme Kai to Vegeta? Well, we don't know. But it's possible that Supreme Kai is stronger than SSJ Vegeta (Cell), as well as a Cell Jr. Let's also remember that a tired Cell still would be too much for Vegeta and Trunks, and Vegeta was shocked to see Goku's 100% full power against Cell, meaning that there was a large gap between Vegeta and Goku in the Cell Games, but Vegeta is above 50% Goku (Trunks possibly too), so Vegeta is probably 60%-65% Goku at best. Supreme Kai can easily be 70-75% of Cell Games Goku, since that's enough difference for Gohan to be able to take out the Z sword, while Supreme Kai not.

Now, Supreme Kai is obviously much stronger than Piccolo (Buu), who is stronger than his Cell Games counterpart, considering it was said that they are on different dimentions, that means that Supreme Kai is probably double the strenght Piccolo has, or somewhere around that gap. For not making him too weak, I'd put Piccolo (Buu) at 45%-50% Cell Games Goku. Piccolo (Cell) would be around 25%.

Piccolo (Cell) < Piccolo (Buu) = 50% SSJ Goku (Cell) < SSJ Trunks (Cell) < SSJ Vegeta (Cell) <= Cell Jr < Supreme Kai < SSJ Goku (Cell) <= SSJ Gohan (Buu) < SSJ Gohan (Cell)
Thoughts on this? We can probably found out now how strong Supreme Kai is.


How strong is Buu Arc Piccolo? Why it is believed he surpassed the Cell Jr?

I just want to ask this. Because we know that Supreme Kai is weaker than SSJ1 Gohan since he was not able to take out the Z sword.

Also, Goku from the Cell Games is probably around the same strenght as Gohan in the Buu arc. So Goku would also be a lot stronger than the Supreme Kai. However, we don't know how Supreme Kai would face Vegeta (Cell) or a Cell Jr. It's possible that Supreme Kai might win. Remember that the Cell Jrs were a bit above Vegeta and Trunks, and they were shocked to see Goku's full power at the Cell Games, so Supreme Kai could easily be somewhere above the Cell Jr, but below Cell Games Goku.

Then there's Piccolo who's obviously implied to be below him in the Daizenshuu, manga and anime, where Piccolo said that their dimentions are too different, implying there's indeed a gap between Piccolo and the Supreme Kai, probably a X2 of difference of power. So Piccolo is possible to be at least 50% Cell Games Goku, which is below a Cell Jr.

Also, Piccolo was never shown to be doing that well against the Cell Jr in the manga, he was only able to stand up, Cell said that the only ones who were able to fight the Cell Jrs were Vegeta and Trunks, no mention of Piccolo. So I doubt that Piccolo would surpass a Cell Jr later, specially since we know that the warriors have their limits (like Goku said after exiting the ROSAT). I guess people followed the anime while making these statements of Piccolo > Cell Jr, when in the manga, that's not really the case.



Update (18/01/17) : Edited to be more clearer.
Last edited by dragonball0900 on Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:01 pm

Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo & the regular Super Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyan 2s & Dabra.

Piccolo admitted that Kaioshin is on a whole different level from him.

Kaioshin admitted that he stands no chance against Dabra.

Kaioshin also admitted that SS2 Gohan is stronger than him, and he realized that multiple mortals have surpassed him after Goku showed his SS2 power against Yakon & Vegeta implied that he possessed this power as well, which means that regular SS isn't above him.

And yes, I believe that Gohan was a SS2 during all the occasions from the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai till the last time we see him. Even though he only has SS2 aura & sparks against Kibito, his hairstyle is the same in all the occasions, and different from the hairstyle SS Gohan has before the 25th TB. Plus, during his fights against Dabra & Boo, Gohan displays power greater than the power he had as a SS2 against Kibito, and he can't be stronger than his SS2 form in his regular SS form. Dabra, who was rivaling Gohan in strength, is also said to be as strong as Cell, and Cell was as strong as SS2 Gohan before his death.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is?

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:48 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo & the regular Super Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyan 2s & Dabra.
I agree with everything you said, but I'm not sure of this.

The thing of "Dabura vs Gohan" is an endless debate, but considering how the guides mentioned that Gohan was SSJ2 only in the tournament and in Movie 10, then I'm counting Gohan as a SSJ against Dabura.

Another thing to point out is that Supreme Kai mentioned in the beggining of the tournament that he wouldn't be able to defeat Goku. Also, Kibito wanted Gohan to transform into SSJ. Considering Supreme Kai thought he wouldn't be able to defeat Goku, then that might show evidence for the Supreme Kai to be below the SSJ's. Also, before the fight with Majin Vegeta, Goku threatened Supreme Kai with a ki blast, and it was just a normal SSJ ki blast instead of a SSJ2 one, Supreme Kai could have blocked the attack if he was stronger than the SSJs.

Last thing to add is that I remember the Daizenshuu only said his power was "above Piccolo's", but it never said something like "above the SSJ's and below the SSJ2's", it would be relevant to put it, but it's not there.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:00 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo & the regular Super Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyan 2s & Dabra.
I agree with everything you said, but I'm not sure of this.

The thing of "Dabura vs Gohan" is an endless debate, but considering how the guides mentioned that Gohan was SSJ2 only in the tournament and in Movie 10, then I'm counting Gohan as a SSJ against Dabura.

Another thing to point out is that Supreme Kai mentioned in the beggining of the tournament that he wouldn't be able to defeat Goku. Also, Kibito wanted Gohan to transform into SSJ. Considering Supreme Kai thought he wouldn't be able to defeat Goku, then that might show evidence for the Supreme Kai to be below the SSJ's. Also, before the fight with Majin Vegeta, Goku threatened Supreme Kai with a ki blast, and it was just a normal SSJ ki blast instead of a SSJ2 one, Supreme Kai could have blocked the attack if he was stronger than the SSJs.

Last thing to add is that I remember the Daizenshuu only said his power was "above Piccolo's", but it never said something like "above the SSJ's and below the SSJ2's", it would be relevant to put it, but it's not there.
If Gohan is a Super Saiyan against Dabra, logic automatically breaks down.

Besides, Daizenshuu 2 says that Gohan only was a SS2 against Kibito, but Daizenshuu 7 states that Gohan was a SS2 against Dabra... so, go figure. The guidebooks are mostly reliable & usefull to have around, but they are not 100% correct.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by Gog » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:02 pm

Unfortunately, he was strong, but not stronger than the Sayians, and their battle boners. Defiantly stronger than Piccolo though

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is?

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:26 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: If Gohan is a Super Saiyan against Dabra, logic automatically breaks down.

Besides, Daizenshuu 2 says that Gohan only was a SS2 against Kibito, but Daizenshuu 7 states that Gohan was a SS2 against Dabra... so, go figure. The guidebooks are mostly reliable & usefull to have around, but they are not 100% correct.
Well, I don't think it matters if Gohan was SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabura, since even if either both of them is considered, there would still be a large gap between Dabura and Supreme Kai, since in the Super manga Dabura threw a single ki blast, defeating Supreme Kai so much that he couldn't even be able to stand a chance against Babidi. Considering the Daizenshuu's only said Supreme Kai was "above Piccolo", and not "above SSJ's and Piccolo, but below SSJ2's", then it's a possibility for him to be below SSJ's. With Supreme Kai aware of SSJ, and saying he wouldn't be able to defeat Goku in the beggining of the Buu arc, and also him being scared of a single ki blast from SSJ Goku before the fight Majin Vegeta, that would put Supreme Kai below the SSJs.

Piccolo << Supreme Kai < SSJ's

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:42 pm

But Kaioshin made no comment about SS Goku's power, and only said that he was surpassed after he saw SS2 Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:46 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But Kaioshin made no comment about SS Goku's power, and only said that he was surpassed after he saw SS2 Goku.
He didn't say he was surpassed, he said he was amazed on their even bigger and incredible powers. Also the SSJ2 was a surprise for them, and there are scenes (the ones that I mentioned earlier) that prove that Supreme Kai is below the SSJ's.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:03 pm

:think:

Well, after watching again SS Goku threatening Kaioshin in the manga, and the fight against Dabra in the Super manga, I guess I'll agree with you that the Super Saiyans are stronger than Kaioshin.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is?

Post by Smilodon » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:26 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: Piccolo admitted that Kaioshin is on a whole different level from him.

Kaioshin admitted that he stands no chance against Dabra.
When Piccolo said they were in different levels, I understood Piccolo was referring to god hierarchy (Kaioshin said that Piccolo were previous Kami sama, so he possibly had a guess of who was in front of him).

But I think Kaioshin was really above Piccolo. I'd put like this (before Gotenks SSJ3, Super Boo, Mystic Gohan, etc):

1- Dabra (Kaioshin was really afraid of him and he did killed Kaioshin in Trunks timeline. He was a little better than Gohan and he were more durable than Gohan against Fat Boo)
2- Gohan SSJ2 (He was stronger than Kaioshin. Strong enough to remove the Z sword for example. But Kaioshin was more durable than Gohan....Gohan was defeated by a single punch by Boo);
3- Kaioshin (I see him below these 2, but by a little)
4- Piccolo. We couldn't see almost nothing from Piccolo in Boo saga (only when Popo and Dende said he was stronger than before). But Piccolo didn't fight against Kaioshin because of the gods hierarchy, and he didn't anything against Boo. He was easily defeated by Dabra and he couldn't kill Babidi when he had the chance, so I put him below Kaioshin.
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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is?

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:24 pm

Smilodon wrote: 1- Dabra (Kaioshin was really afraid of him and he did killed Kaioshin in Trunks timeline. He was a little better than Gohan and he were more durable than Gohan against Fat Boo)
2- Gohan SSJ2 (He was stronger than Kaioshin. Strong enough to remove the Z sword for example. But Kaioshin was more durable than Gohan....Gohan was defeated by a single punch by Boo);
3- Kaioshin (I see him below these 2, but by a little)
The only problem I have with this is, I read the manga again and conclude into this:

- Kaioshin seems to be more durable than Dabura against Fat Buu, but it's stated that Dabura is much stronger than Kaioshin and that the gap between those 2 was big. Meaning that Kaioshin's durability against Fat Buu doesn't really indicate strenght.

- Kaioshin had to rely on Gohan's speed to escape from Fat Buu, meaning that Gohan was much stronger than Kaioshin.

- Dabura seems to be durable as much as Gohan against Fat Buu, they were both out with a single blast (Dabura got another small kick though) and they later returned and were soon out again with a single one shot (in Dabura's case, turned into a cookie).

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by TobyS » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:47 pm

Kaioshin is not weaker just because he backed down from SSJ1 Goku, he saw Goku use a burst of SS2 on Yakon, he realises Goku is willing to fight kaioshin to fight Vegeta and he knows he can bust out a power greater than his own, he's also implicitly going to have to deal with Vegeta too, so you can also say he's worried about fighting two super saiyans at once, or one/two suoersaiyans that can turn SS2 if he pushes them into doing it.

Another thing which is more certain that a lot of you are forgetting is that Dabras strength estimate is revised by Goku.

He starts by comparing him to Cell, and then says he's stronger than he thought he was. So even if you lowball Dabra and say he's comparing him to the Cell that Son Goku fought, he revises that upwards towards SPC levels.

SS2 Goku/Vegeta 130 > SS2 kid Gohan 120 > SS2 Gohan (Rusty/no rage) 100-110 > SP.Cell/Dabra (revised) 80-100 > Supreme Kai 70> SS1 Goku/Vegeta 65 Gohan (Rusty/no rage) 50-55 > Perfect Cell/Dabra (initial) 50.

Sorry for the chain.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:12 pm

TobyS wrote:Kaioshin is not weaker just because he backed down from SSJ1 Goku, he saw Goku use a burst of SS2 on Yakon, he realises Goku is willing to fight kaioshin to fight Vegeta and he knows he can bust out a power greater than his own, he's also implicitly going to have to deal with Vegeta too, so you can also say he's worried about fighting two super saiyans at once, or one/two suoersaiyans that can turn SS2 if he pushes them into doing it.
But there's also the scene where Gohan pulled out the Z sword. It was stated that none of the Kaioshins were able to take out the Z sword, yet SSJ Gohan (I don't think it was stated anywhere that he was SSJ2) managed to pull it out after some effort. Also, Kaioshin knew about SSJ, and he didn't think he would be able to beat Goku, they didn't know about SSJ2, so they were refering to SSJ. Another thing is that if Kaioshin was stronger than SSJ's, then the Daizenshuu could have said it so, but it only said he was stronger than Piccolo.

You're possibly right about the reason why Kaioshin backed down from SSJ Goku, but you'd think that Kaioshin would try anything he could to stop Goku and Vegeta from fighting if Buu was going to wake up.

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by kaioken12 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:05 am

dragonball0900 wrote:
TobyS wrote:You're possibly right about the reason why Kaioshin backed down from SSJ Goku, but you'd think that Kaioshin would try anything he could to stop Goku and Vegeta from fighting if Buu was going to wake up.
Not to enter any power debate, but concerning this point: To be fair, Kaioshin *did* try anything.
Either way you look at it, he knew that a) he wasn't a match against Goku and Vegeta and b) any damage/ki leak caused by Vegeta would flow directly into Buu's resurrection (IIRC).

So he did a logical thing by giving in and letting them have their fight. This way, the strong Vegeta would be occupied with Goku, giving himself and Gohan the chance to sneak into Babidi's ship and stop the resurrection in time.
This was the more logical option in comparison to having his ass handed to him and possibly ending up dead or at least immobilized/unconcious.

Also (again IIRC), I am pretty sure that Kaioshin did *not* realize Goku and Vegeta's full powers at this point, because he was confident he and Gohan would have enough time to deal with Dabura and Babidi.
In the end, they were all surprised to see Buu being "ready to resurrect" so fast, because they didn't know initially that Goku and Vegeta would fight as ascended SSJs (SSJ2).

PS: Now in the light of Super, wouldn't Kaioshin seem weaker than he actually was (God Ki and stuff)?

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Why do some people think Piccolo surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:49 pm

kaioken12 wrote: Not to enter any power debate, but concerning this point: To be fair, Kaioshin *did* try anything.
Either way you look at it, he knew that a) he wasn't a match against Goku and Vegeta and b) any damage/ki leak caused by Vegeta would flow directly into Buu's resurrection (IIRC).

So he did a logical thing by giving in and letting them have their fight. This way, the strong Vegeta would be occupied with Goku, giving himself and Gohan the chance to sneak into Babidi's ship and stop the resurrection in time.
This was the more logical option in comparison to having his ass handed to him and possibly ending up dead or at least immobilized/unconcious.

Also (again IIRC), I am pretty sure that Kaioshin did *not* realize Goku and Vegeta's full powers at this point, because he was confident he and Gohan would have enough time to deal with Dabura and Babidi.
In the end, they were all surprised to see Buu being "ready to resurrect" so fast, because they didn't know initially that Goku and Vegeta would fight as ascended SSJs (SSJ2).

PS: Now in the light of Super, wouldn't Kaioshin seem weaker than he actually was (God Ki and stuff)?
Yeah, I think I agree with this. Although it wouldn't stop Kaioshin from being weaker than the SSJ1s, considering how he wasn't able to pull out the Z sword, when SSJ Gohan was able to do it.

For now, it seems to be:

Piccolo < Kaioshin < SSJ Gohan

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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Did Piccolo really surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by TobyS » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:03 pm

Consider the possibility that the z-sword was an Arthurian “chosen one” kinda deal. also Gohan could have used a burst of like super saiyan 1-2 for a quick pull.

Toriyama says all as forms are variations of ss, perhaps they can use like ss1.5 for tiny bursts, transforming is just like to consistently maintain that higher threshold.

See SS2 Rageta doing better than ss3/mystic (for a few seconds) bullshit if you want to use later stuff.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Did Piccolo really surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:46 pm

TobyS wrote:Consider the possibility that the z-sword was an Arthurian “chosen one” kinda deal. also Gohan could have used a burst of like super saiyan 1-2 for a quick pull.

Toriyama says all as forms are variations of ss, perhaps they can use like ss1.5 for tiny bursts, transforming is just like to consistently maintain that higher threshold.

See SS2 Rageta doing better than ss3/mystic (for a few seconds) bullshit if you want to use later stuff.
That's actually speculation. Unlike Dabura's fight (where we don't know if he was SSJ or SSJ2), here when pulling the z sword we don't have anything to say he was a SSJ2, nor that he was on a variation between SSJ-SSJ2 since we never saw Gohan in the series using a form like that, he only knows SSJ and SSJ2, and I doubt Gohan would use SSJ2 right from the start, since we don't see any change on Gohan's look. Gohan wasn't in a situation of full anger either.
It wasn't really an Arthurian case. Here the Kaioshin and Kibito were relying on strenght of the individual, they were surprised to see Gohan pulling out the sword. Heck, Kaioshin told Kibito that it was because of Gohan's strenght that the sword managed to be out.
Also Arthur pulled the sword out without any effort because he was good heart. Here however, Gohan was struggling, because the one strong enough will be able to pull the sword out.

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TobyS
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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Did Piccolo really surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by TobyS » Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:54 pm

Then why not just blow up or teleport away the surrounding rocks under it, once that's done, we know even base goku can swing it about. There is clearly mystical deal going on with it. It's speculation as to the exact mechanics but it's simpler to see that's what's going on in some undefined capacity.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

dragonball0900
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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is? Did Piccolo really surpassed the Cell Jr in the Buu saga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:46 pm

TobyS wrote:Then why not just blow up or teleport away the surrounding rocks under it, once that's done, we know even base goku can swing it about. There is clearly mystical deal going on with it. It's speculation as to the exact mechanics but it's simpler to see that's what's going on in some undefined capacity.
Maybe it was impossible to do that, maybe his magic has limitations, or maybe the Supreme Kai just didn't think about it (we know how his personality is). But that's speculation what I'm saying here. However, what I said about the z sword being pulled due to strenght is not speculation, since that's clearly said in the manga, as well as Gohan using just SSJ while pulling the sword out (which is not said in any guide that he was SSJ2 at all).
I honestly don't really know why Base Goku is able to have the sword by himself, maybe the base saiyans and Supreme Kai are able to have the sword, but not able to pull it out of the rock (Kibito is another case, since he obviously couldn't lift the sword).

Big Green The Yoshi
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Re: How strong the Supreme Kai really is?/How strong is Buu Arc Piccolo? Why it is believed he surpassed the Cell Jr?

Post by Big Green The Yoshi » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:45 am

The Boo Arc has a ton of ridiculous implications, but there's really no reason not to go with the Base Saiyans > Piccolo. Yes, it causes a lot of bloating in the Cell Arc, and we all don't like it in general, but they're all far too clear to ignore.

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