How strong is Piccolo in the Androids arc? How can we compare him to Frieza, Future Trunks and Sick Goku?

[dragonball0900]

This is a part of the series that I don't really sometimes understand when it comes to power scaling. But I wanted to discuss what do you guys think about Piccolo's power in the Androids saga? I've seen some people underestimating him, and put him below Frieza (even 50% Form Frieza), but I don't really see that as true.

First of all, let's go back to the Frieza arc.
We know official numbers that indicate Goku as 150 Million and Frieza as 120 Million. That's something we all know. Now, let's continue with the Mecha Frieza arc.
Frieza said that he was stronger in his Mecha form, and said that he was now able to defeat Goku, but also came with King Cold, his father, for help. Mecha Frieza is probably around the same strenght as Goku was in Namek, possibly a bit stronger. Then we come to Future Trunks, who defeats Frieza easily. However, we don't know if Mecha Frieza was in full power or not. But Trunks is stronger, that's for sure.

Next is Yadrat SSJ Goku, that's when it was stated that he was stronger than Future Trunks, since he was able to impress him, with Trunks saying he was stronger than he thought. There's also the fact that Future Gohan is probably around the same strenght as Future Trunks, and Future Gohan stated that he never got as strong as his father was, obviously talking about Yadrat Goku (or possibly a slightly trained Goku, before his death). That's Frieza < SSJ Goku (Namek) <= Mecha Frieza < Future Trunks < SSJ Goku (Yadrat)

In the Androids arc, Goku, while he was battling with Android 19, was suffering from his health, so he wasn't fighting in his full power, Piccolo and Gohan knew this, since they trained with him and know his strenght. However, Tenshinhan, Krillin and Yamcha didn't know that. BUT they felt Goku's SSJ power 3 years ago, and they still said that Goku was better than before. Making Sick Goku stronger than Yadrat Goku. If it was the other way, then the humans would have noticed Goku's strange feeling just like Piccolo and Gohan. So it's SSJ Goku (Yadrat) < SSJ Sick Goku
Now how can we tie Piccolo into this? Well, Piccolo was confident in defeating the Androids that SSJ Trunks (whose strenght was felt by the same Piccolo 3 years ago) couldn't defeat. Piccolo is not like Tenshinhan, who would go no matter how weak he is, Piccolo always goes if he knows he could defeat the opponents, that's stated by Gohan in the Frieza arc. Piccolo is not confident if he can't defeat his opponents. And also given how Trunks defeated Frieza, and Piccolo knew the Androids were stronger than Trunks, as well as feeling Trunks' actual strenght, then I don't know why some people think Piccolo is weaker than Frieza. He also has to be stronger than Future Trunks who killed Mecha Frieza too.

The most troublesome part for me is comparing Piccolo with Yadrat Goku and Sick Goku. I believe he's stronger than Yadrat Goku, since Yadrat Goku is possibly not that far stronger than Future Trunks. However, I don't know how to compare him to Sick Goku. However, after seeing Sick Goku and Piccolo's fights against A19 and A20, could they be possibly around the same strenght? Let me know what you think.

[nickzambuto]

This all seems to make sense to me. By this logic I'd think Piccolo should be stronger than sick Goku, since Goku was manhandling 19 but couldn't quite deal any lasting damage, whereas Piccolo karate chopped Gero's arm right off.

[Pantalones]

If you go with the assumption that #20 is definitely stronger than #19, then Piccolo has to be stronger than sick Goku -- even right when he first transformed, before his power dropped even further and #19 started to overpower him. Goku wasn't breaking #19's limbs even at the start of that fight when the Android hadn't absorbed much energy yet, while Piccolo chopped Gero's arm off even after being eye-beamed and having some of his energy drained. And Gero had Yamcha's energy absorbed at that point too, for what it's worth.

Also, a little later on Piccolo seems to handle hits from the Androids at least as well as Trunks, maybe even a bit better. If I'm remembering right Trunks is taken out of the fight in a single blow (one of the Androids actually swings Vegeta and smacks him with his own dad), while Piccolo takes at least two hits including a seriously painful-looking uppercut to the gut/chest from #17. Vegeta on the other hand gets his arms broken before he's completely out of the fight, and that's after getting worn down while the others were relatively fresh when the Androids attacked them (though he's not as close to #18 as some people think... she was toying with him the whole time and only got serious at the very end. He's still the strongest person fighting the Androids at this point in the series by a significant amount, though.)

So maybe Piccolo and Trunks are sort of around the same level at this point, with Piccolo just a bit ahead of him and both of them just a few notches below Vegeta and (healthy) Goku, but stronger than sick Goku. All of them are ahead of Freeza at this point for sure.

[Nejishiki]

That's a curious take, dragonball0900. Did you ask those individuals why they believed Piccolo was inferior to 50% of Freeza's strength? From my recollection, the Namekian grew to surpass Goku's level from Namek by training with him (on that note, I don't think he necessarily has to be stronger or weaker than Future Trunks, they can have comparable footing, with Piccolo's martial arts sense winning out more often than not). Hypothetically validating that theory, it definitely wouldn't be viable after he merges with God, I think. Piccolo is a confident guy, true, but I'm not sure how legitimate that analysis is. Dragon Team cannot sense the Artificial Humans & their superiority was made apparent when our protagonists had a round with them. While Freeza didn't exert his full strength, I think the narrative makes it clear that it would be futile. Future Trunks exists within another world from Freeza's best efforts.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Piccolo could be considered a high ranked warrior but not quite as a match to a Super Saiyan. Despite No. 17 needing one blow to beat Trunks, it was a surprise strong attack. The moves he used against Piccolo didn't look that powerful, specially the second one with the relaxed fist.

[LightBing]

I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but I disagree with many things:

1. Future Trunks isn't necessarily weaker than Yardrat Goku just because the former was impressed with the later power. If you look at the quotes below, Goku says Trunks was holding back and is shocked that Trunks, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza was weaker than the Androids, implying Goku himself wouldn't be able to do it with the same easiness Trunks did.
   
   [spoiler]Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
   Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
   Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
   Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”
   
   Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
   Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
   Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”[/spoiler]
   
   But the an even stronger argument to me is Trunks Story and the following quote:
   
   [spoiler]Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
   Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”[/spoiler]
   
   Trunks story concludes with Trunks being defeated by the Androids and accepting his mother's option of going to the past in search of an solution. It's logical that after going to the past, he wouldn't risk fighting the Androids again in the 8 months he had to wait.
   It's implied that he didn't fought them for three years after they killed Gohan and trained hard. Why start being stupid now?
   Therefore like he said above, he should already be able to stand up to an individual Future Android by the time he defeats Freeza.
   
   There's the option of him powering up significantly in the 8 months in-between but that doesn't seem like the case. Nobody bothered to even comment if Trunks was stronger than before and the time isn't enough without any special training methods.
2. Nowhere did the humans said Super Saiyan Goku was better than before and they had the opportunity. Tenshinhan mostly was complimenting Super Saiyan but if look at this quote for example:
   
   [spoiler]Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
   Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
   Piccolo: “…”
   
   or this one
   
   Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P7.4
   Tenshinhan: “There’s no need to worry. Goku is outrageously strong. This ‘Super Saiyan’ thing is incredible…! [The androids] talk big, but they’re helpless.”[/spoiler]
   
   He acts as if that's the first time he saw it. I'm not sure assuming sickly Goku is better than before is correct, when the humans act as if they forgot they saw him three years ago.
3. The premise of using "Sick Goku" as a reference is flawed. Goku was decreasing in power from the start and already started the fight crippled, meaning Sick Goku is a wide range.

Personally and taking everything I said before, I place Piccolo decently behind the Super Saiyans. Which makes him weaker than Mech Freeza because I believe #19 and #20 are very weak. Freeza would toy with them bar any absorption shenanigans.

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

The above quote gives us a straightforward power scale, notice how Kami didn't even mention Piccolo. Goku says Vegeta is probably stronger than him in another quote making the scale something like this:

Vegeta > Goku >>> Trunks >>>> Piccolo

[Pickle_Jar]

I could've sworn I read a long time ago (10+ years) that Piccolo was temporarily the strongest Z-fighter after fusing with Kami. Everyone else has been talking about how this compares via power levels, but I wanted to throw this tidbit into the mix.

Keep in mind, this was over a decade ago and could be wrong.

[dragonball0900]

I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but I disagree with many things:

1. Future Trunks isn't necessarily weaker than Yardrat Goku just because the former was impressed with the later power. If you look at the quotes below, Goku says Trunks was holding back and is shocked that Trunks, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza was weaker than the Androids, implying Goku himself wouldn't be able to do it with the same easiness Trunks did.
   
   [spoiler]Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P13.3-5
   Context: after Trunks and Goku fight
   Trunks: “As expected, the rumors were true. No, you’re even greater…This was the sword that cut even Freeza…”
   Goku: “You weren’t serious, after all.”
   
   Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
   Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
   Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”[/spoiler]
   
   But the an even stronger argument to me is Trunks Story and the following quote:
   
   [spoiler]Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
   Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”[/spoiler]
   
   Trunks story concludes with Trunks being defeated by the Androids and accepting his mother's option of going to the past in search of an solution. It's logical that after going to the past, he wouldn't risk fighting the Androids again in the 8 months he had to wait.
   It's implied that he didn't fought them for three years after they killed Gohan and trained hard. Why start being stupid now?
   Therefore like he said above, he should already be able to stand up to an individual Future Android by the time he defeats Freeza.
   
   There's the option of him powering up significantly in the 8 months in-between but that doesn't seem like the case. Nobody bothered to even comment if Trunks was stronger than before and the time isn't enough without any special training methods.
2. Nowhere did the humans said Super Saiyan Goku was better than before and they had the opportunity. Tenshinhan mostly was complimenting Super Saiyan but if look at this quote for example:
   
   [spoiler]Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
   Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
   Piccolo: “…”
   
   or this one
   
   Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P7.4
   Tenshinhan: “There’s no need to worry. Goku is outrageously strong. This ‘Super Saiyan’ thing is incredible…! [The androids] talk big, but they’re helpless.”[/spoiler]
   
   He acts as if that's the first time he saw it. I'm not sure assuming sickly Goku is better than before is correct, when the humans act as if they forgot they saw him three years ago.
3. The premise of using "Sick Goku" as a reference is flawed. Goku was decreasing in power from the start and already started the fight crippled, meaning Sick Goku is a wide range.

Personally and taking everything I said before, I place Piccolo decently behind the Super Saiyans. Which makes him weaker than Mech Freeza because I believe #19 and #20 are very weak. Freeza would toy with them bar any absorption shenanigans.

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

The above quote gives us a straightforward power scale, notice how Kami didn't even mention Piccolo. Goku says Vegeta is probably stronger than him in another quote making the scale something like this:

Vegeta > Goku >>> Trunks >>>> Piccolo

A. Even if Trunks wasn't at full power with the sword, it was still something that Goku was able to block with just one finger. Trunks even said "that's the sword that cut Frieza in half", indicating that he was probably using the same strenght he used to cut Frieza, yet Goku just used a finger and it did nothing to him.

There's also the fact that Future Gohan was probably the same strenght as Future Trunks (with Future Trunks probably having the edge), but Future Gohan stated clearly that he was still never able to surpass his father's powers. That's obviously referencing SSJ Goku from Yadrat. That can also confirm Yadrat Goku's superiority over Future Trunks.

B. If Sick Goku was weaker than Yadrat Goku, the humans would've noticed it like how Gohan and Piccolo did, since they all sensed him previously 3 years ago. I doubt they forgot Goku's transformation, Tien was complimenting the transformation, is not as if they forgot the transformation from 3 years ago since that was never stated in the dialogue, Tien was surprised for the difference in power, and again, if Yadrat Goku was stronger than Sick Goku, the humans would've noticed that Goku's power declined.

C. But still, Goku was able to fight and beating Android 19. As well as the reasons from point B. His power just wasn't the same as his full one, as noticed by Piccolo. And I just don't see that as a reason of using "Sick Goku" being wrong.

Just adding something from point A. It is possible that Trunks increased in power, he could've been training for help, but obviously his gains weren't that much big. That means that the gap between Yadrat Goku and Piccolo are not that big. In numbers I have them like this, just for now:

Frieza = 120M
Goku (Frieza) = 150M
Mecha Frieza = 145-150M
Future Trunks = 165M
Yadrat Goku = 170M
Sick Goku = 175M

The Androids 19 and 20 are very underrated too. They are probably below Frieza, I know. But I just don't see them that much below Frieza. I'd say they are able to make 100% Frieza a very good fight.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Piccolo is at 50% of 17 at best, most likely lower but that's the maximum.

[LightBing]

[spoiler]A. Even if Trunks wasn't at full power with the sword, it was still something that Goku was able to block with just one finger. Trunks even said "that's the sword that cut Frieza in half", indicating that he was probably using the same strenght he used to cut Frieza, yet Goku just used a finger and it did nothing to him.

There's also the fact that Future Gohan was probably the same strenght as Future Trunks (with Future Trunks probably having the edge), but Future Gohan stated clearly that he was still never able to surpass his father's powers. That's obviously referencing SSJ Goku from Yadrat. That can also confirm Yadrat Goku's superiority over Future Trunks.

B. If Sick Goku was weaker than Yadrat Goku, the humans would've noticed it like how Gohan and Piccolo did, since they all sensed him previously 3 years ago. I doubt they forgot Goku's transformation, Tien was complimenting the transformation, is not as if they forgot the transformation from 3 years ago since that was never stated in the dialogue, Tien was surprised for the difference in power, and again, if Yadrat Goku was stronger than Sick Goku, the humans would've noticed that Goku's power declined.

C. But still, Goku was able to fight and beating Android 19. As well as the reasons from point B. His power just wasn't the same as his full one, as noticed by Piccolo. And I just don't see that as a reason of using "Sick Goku" being wrong.

Just adding something from point A. It is possible that Trunks increased in power, he could've been training for help, but obviously his gains weren't that much big. That means that the gap between Yadrat Goku and Piccolo are not that big. In numbers I have them like this, just for now:

Frieza = 120M
Goku (Frieza) = 150M
Mecha Frieza = 145-150M
Future Trunks = 165M
Yadrat Goku = 170M
Sick Goku = 175M

The Androids 19 and 20 are very underrated too. They are probably below Frieza, I know. But I just don't see them that much below Frieza. I'd say they are able to make 100% Frieza a very good fight.[/spoiler]

Goku used a finger because he didn't have a sword. It's not about him just needing a finger, he stopped Trunks sword with his own.

Future Trunks is stronger than Future Gohan. Did you read Trunks story? Trunks pretty much said so himself. Would Trunks go in a suicide mission and face the Androids if he was just a bit stronger than the Gohan who was murdered? No, because Trunks is one of the more cautious characters in Dragon Ball.

Only Bulma says he's probably not that much stronger than Gohan, but Bulma can't feel ki. She probably doesn't want him to go, especially since she wants him to use the time-machine.

So you think Trunks went from weaker than Yardrat Goku to almost even with a single Future Android by training 8 months alone? Which by the way is almost even with Goku after training for 3 years.
Yeah..., I don't buy it. I won't say it's impossible because this is Dragon Ball but it doesn't really make sense in the narrative.
Especially since this means he fought the Androids again in the 8 month window, which is off-character for Trunks. Why would he risk himself, knowing he would lose and not even seeing the results of his actions on the past. Again, it makes no sense at all.

S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!
Is the above not what someone who never saw Super Saiyan would say?

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing that Goku was stronger than his Yardrat self at the beginning of the fight, I think that's the case. The problem is that Sick Goku isn't a fix power.
Goku might have started at 90% and dropped to 55% after 2 minutes and then dropped some more until #19 was toying with him.
I can say that Piccolo is much stronger than Sick Goku because Goku was taking a beating from #19 who was weaker than #20 who Piccolo dominated. See what I mean, using Sick Goku was a comparison is wrong. It's a wide range of power.

Piccolo is at 50% of 17 at best, most likely lower but that's the maximum.

I agree, I assume you reasoning is that Piccolo doubled his power after merging with Kami. Which is implied by Guru in the Namek arc.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Anyway, I'm not disagreeing that Goku was stronger than his Yardrat self at the beginning of the fight, I think that's the case. The problem is that Sick Goku isn't a fix power.
Goku might have started at 90% and dropped to 55% after 2 minutes and then dropped some more until #19 was toying with him.
I can say that Piccolo is much stronger than Sick Goku because Goku was taking a beating from #19 who was weaker than #20 who Piccolo dominated. See what I mean, using Sick Goku was a comparison is wrong. It's a wide range of power.

Goku was already feeling the effects of the heart virus quite a while before the battle even started, it was further exacerbated by going Super Saiyan, so I highly doubt he still had 90% of his strength remaining at the start of the battle.

So you think Trunks went from weaker than Yardrat Goku to almost even with a single Future Android by training 8 months alone? Which by the way is almost even with Goku after training for 3 years.
Yeah..., I don't buy it. I won't say it's impossible because this is Dragon Ball but it doesn't really make sense in the narrative.
Especially since this means he fought the Androids again in the 8 month window, which is off-character for Trunks. Why would he risk himself, knowing he would lose and not even seeing the results of his actions on the past. Again, it makes no sense at all.

He may not have had a choice in the matter, perhaps he was forced to fight them because they were closing in on his location. Also, the Future Androids are notably weaker than the present ones so Yardrat Goku could most likely put up a great fight in a one on one.

[LightBing]

Goku was already feeling the effects of the heart virus quite a while before the battle even started, it was further exacerbated by going Super Saiyan, so I highly doubt he still had 90% of his strength remaining at the start of the battle.

I was giving a random percentage. Although I argue Goku should still be pretty strong at the start of the fight. He might be greedy enough to fight knowing the heart disease kicked in, but he's not stupid enough to fight severely weakened. Especially not knowing how strong the Androids were and knowing they murdered everyone in the Future.

He may not have had a choice in the matter, perhaps he was forced to fight them because they were closing in on his location. Also, the Future Androids are notably weaker than the present ones so Yardrat Goku could most likely put up a great fight in a one on one.

I mean yeah, it's possible. But that's grasping at straws quite a bit. In these type of situations the correct answer usually is the simplest one.
Future #17 said he used less than half power when he fought the Future Gohan previously. It's a fair assumption then that Future Gohan equals 50% of Future #17 at the time of his death.
Gohan admitted he never reached his father's power, who should be stronger than Yardrat Goku since he still lived for two more years(right?). I find it very unlikely that Gohan was that much weaker than Goku.

I stand by it, Future Trunks was close to Future Androids level by the time Mech Freeza landed. Him getting super strong in eight months alone and nobody saying anything about it seems unlikely, to say the least. Likewise him fighting the Androids again and surviving.
Goku said Trunks was holding back, there has to be a reason for him to say that. Notice how nobody ever said Trunks was weaker than Goku. People assume only because Trunks was impressed by Goku and had a little hope that after 3 years he might defeat them.
When you weight the arguments against each other, it seems one scenario is much likely than the others. At least to me it does. Am I alone in this?

Anyway that's about it regarding this topic(Future Trunks). Soon we will be walking in circles repeating the same things and getting nowhere, I'm already doing it partially.

[Nejishiki]

Gohan admitted he never reached his father's power, who should be stronger than Yardrat Goku since he still lived for two more years(right?). I find it very unlikely that Gohan was that much weaker than Goku.

Goku: "W-wait, what about me...?"
Goku: "What happened to me?!"
Goku: "Did I get killed too?!"
Future Trunks: "You never fought."
Future Trunks: "You will grow ill not too long from now..."
Future Trunks: "...and die."

Narrator: "Goku has died."
Narrator: "Everyone seals up the sorrow in their hearts their own way,"
Narrator: "and peace continues for a short time."
Narrator: "And then, a half-year later..."
Narrator: "A devilish pair appears on an island in the south."

The original story claims Goku will die soon after his return, before Trunks' birth. The Dragon Ball Z adaption places his death years later, with a born Future Trunks.

[LightBing]

The original story claims Goku will die soon after his return, before Trunks' birth. The Dragon Ball Z adaption places his death years later, with a born Future Trunks.

Thank you for the correction, I was probably remembering the anime version. These apparently arbitrary changes only serve to confuse people, I don't understand them at all.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I doubt Trunks was nearly equal with a single Android. In fact, #17 gives #18 the go ahead to kill Trunks on her own when he returns. If anything, the "fight" he put up against the Androids was likely nothing special. #17 was sure he could decimate Future Gohan alone based on what he knew of his power. You can say he was arrogant, but if he believes #18 can handle Trunks without his help, then we know Trunks is nothing to the Future Androids. Certainly not to the point where both are required to defeat him.

There's also many quotes which show that he's nowhere near them.

This is what Trunks says about the Future Androids after getting demolished:

Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…”

So Trunks admitted that Bulma was right, and that the Androids were far too strong for him to handle.

After Trunks returned back to the past for the 2nd time:

Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

After the Android battle:

Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Even though he was absolutely no match for his Androids, he could fight them fairly well despite the difference in power being huge between them. Overall, Trunks would still be a weakling to the Future Androids. I think Trunks is stronger than Future Gohan, but not to a point where the difference is significant and both Androids would have to use their full-power to take him down. In all likelihood, the Androids held-back a significant amount of power against Trunks considering #17 thought of the idea of keeping him around for their own fun.

[OLKv3]

Initially, he's stronger/on par with Sick Goku, but weaker than Trunks and Vegeta
Then he's the strongest for a bit when he merges with Kami
For the Cell games he's the strongest of every non-Saiyan, and strong enough to still be standing when fighting a Cell Jr.