Was Super Saiyan 3 merely a fluke?

[Almighty Majin]

It is clearly seen that SSJ3 is not a perfect transformation considering all of the strain and stuff, but considering how Dragon Ball Super has treated SSJ2, I am beginning to get the impression that the SSJ3 transformation is not really supposed to be part of the transformation line as mastering SSJ2 like Future Trunks grants that exact same power and then the power can be further surpassed in Vegeta's case when he reached his Furious Mutation SSJ2 form.

If you think about it, this transformation line would kinda make sense:

Base --(experience certain emotional trauma on a high level)--> SSJ --(power strain + training)--> SSJ Grade II-IV --(after mastery of SSJ, breaking past mental barriers and transcending SSJ with full power)--> SSJ2 (or alternatively SSJ Grade V) --(train SSJ2 intensely and master)--> Improved SSJ2 (SSJ Grade VI?) --(let go of previously bottled up emotional trauma through a burst of rage via current events)--> Furious Mutation SSJ2 (SSJ Grade VII?) --(pinnacle of anger; become over-saturated with emotional trauma)--> Super Saiyan Rage (SSJ Grade VIII?)

There seems to be a theme here if you look at this transformation line and it makes a good amount of sense I think.

Another thing is that if you look at SSJ3, it doesn't seem to follow this theme as we have never seen it being achieved through some type of emotional trauma and is instead achieved via intensive training through unorthodox means or in Gotenks' case, concentrating all of his latent power and then straining the transformation into existence.

Could it be that SSJ3 was just a fluke in Goku's training since it seems that as of Super, SSJ2 yields way better results and the fact that it is much different from the other transformations or could it be that SSJ3's power is dependent on how strong one's SSJ2 form already is and SSJ3 just has a lot of undiscovered power as a result?

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's certainly possible.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

Clearly Vegeta has no interest in it. I think that tells you all you need to know about the usefulness of the form, especially when going Blue is an option (though that form has its difficulties as well, at least according to Toyotaro)

[Lord Beerus]

I think it is. There was zero indication that Super Saiyan was possible, let alone that Goku could pull it off, and yet in the Majin Boo arc Goku becomes a SSJ3, and he did it just by... powering up. I also think the huge drawbacks that the form has, even on a character that is deceased, just makes the transformation all the more of an anomaly. And as for how Gotenks pulled it off... I just think he got a bit lucky thanks to being a fused character.

[sintzu]

When Goku first showed it off he didn't even know what to call it so he just gave 2 and 3 those numbers off the top of his head but I don't think Ssj3 isn a new form but an out of control Ssj2.

Ssj"3" seems to be the form a Saiyan takes when they force their body to power up before it's ready to take that kind of power so it results in uncontrolabe power and hair that's all over the place.

Vegeta's Ssj2 in BOG and during his fight against Black in the manga is how I think Ssj"3" should be when the user's body is strong enough to take the power boost and Trunks' form is an even better mastered Ssj2.

Toriyama said Ssj2&3 are just powered up Ssj1s so you could even say that Trunks and Vegeta's Ssj2s are just very powerful Ssj1's.

It's an interesting idea but I doubt it's something the writers thought about. to them Ssj2 is easier to draw so they use it instead of 3. that's probably all there is to it.

EDIT : I completely forgot Goku used it after getting a lot stronger than he was so I guess my theory goes out the window.

I guess the reason Vegeta and Trunks haven't used it even though they're powerful enough to is to not have to animate all that hair.

[precita]

Yeah that's kinda why I wish Gotenks never went SSJ3. If he didn't, then we'd all agree this form was just something new Goku invented on his own, and isn't a continuation of the Super Saiyan line.

[sintzu]

Clearly Vegeta has no interest in it. I think that tells you all you need to know about the usefulness of the form, especially when going Blue is an option (though that form has its difficulties as well, at least according to Toyotaro)

The form is really popular in Japan cause they're always giving it to new characters and finding ways to reintroduce it to characters who have it so I'm surprised we haven't seen him and even Trunks use it.

Maybe he and Cabba will when they fight again ?

[Gog]

Nah, I truly don't believe the idea that Super Saiyan 3 was achieved through some fluke. However I also don't believe the idea that Super Saiyan 3 is achieved through some kind of anger, as Vegeta never transformed past Super Saiyan 2 when doing that. So I'd imagine that Super Saiyan 3 functions near identically to one of the forms between 1 and 2. Explains why Vegeta never got it, wasn't smart enough to figure it out

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

Clearly Vegeta has no interest in it. I think that tells you all you need to know about the usefulness of the form, especially when going Blue is an option (though that form has its difficulties as well, at least according to Toyotaro)

The form is really popular in Japan cause they're always giving it to new characters and finding ways to reintroduce it to characters who have it so I'm surprised we haven't seen him and even Trunks use it.

Maybe he and Cabba will when they fight again ?

Well Heroes loves giving characters SS3 and SS4 who never had these forms in "canon," but that's kind of what Heroes is for, that kind of fan service. Who doesn't want to see SS3 Vegeta and SS4 Gohan?

My point was just that within the context of the in-universe "canon" story, as in the original manga and its continuation in the Super anime/manga, it seems like SS3 is kind of a Goku and Gotenks thing, and even Goku has little reason to use it now. The last time we saw it was when Goku displayed it for Future Trunks, and of course the reason for that was to put it on display and see his reaction to it. That moment then lead to the I thought very funny joke when Trunks asked Vegeta point blank if he can use the form like Goku, and Vegeta mocked it and went to the vastly superior Blue form instead.

I honestly do not expect to see Goku use SS3 in proper combat ever again. SS or SSB at this point seem to be his go to's, as the first gives him an easy strain-less 50x boost even when he's still heavily and incredibly suppressed in his base (Goku's base is "Saiyan Beyond God" at its max, remember), as it has since the Cell Games when he mastered it with Grade 4, and the second, Super Saiyan Blue, allows him to transcend his full Godly level max base ki power with a Super Saiyan transformation (and evidently and possibly by a multiplier greater than SS3, which I headcanon as 4000x, or 10x SS3's 400x), which in turn results in his ki turning into potent Godly ki.

As for SS2, which does pop up in the Super anime a bit from Goku, such as when he sparred against Black in the present Timeline, I'm not sure the effect of Goku using this, other than of course the 100x multiplier, but it opens the question of how much control and mastery does Goku have of this form at this point in the story. Future Trunks was certainly getting a lot of mileage out of it, using it against God tier characters (character with the potential to destroy the entire universe/macrocosm with their full power).

All the above ditto for Vegeta.

As for other Saiyans, like Cabba, SS2 and SS3 Cabba are totally things that could show up in Super, and if not there, than of course there is always Heroes.

[sintzu]

Trunks asked Vegeta point blank if he can use the form like Goku, and Vegeta mocked it and went to the vastly superior Blue form instead.

This confirms (for me at least) that Vegeta is indeed capable of using Ssj3 in canon if he wanted to which makes sense cause he saw Goku use it twice and his base is far above what Ssj3 requires.

[OtōsanDaishinkan]

Trunks asked Vegeta point blank if he can use the form like Goku, and Vegeta mocked it and went to the vastly superior Blue form instead.

This confirms (for me at least) that Vegeta is indeed capable of using Ssj3 in canon if he wanted to which makes sense cause he saw Goku use it twice and his base is far above what Ssj3 requires.

I look at it like it very intentionally neither confirms nor denies it. They want there to be some mystery for some reason, a way of hedging their bets so they can both acknowledge that while he probably could, he doesn't, while also making sure they don't have to contradict themselves later in case Toriyama decides to write in an outline that Vegeta goes SSj3 for the first time in a crucial moment. I personally don't see it happening but never say never.

[sintzu]

I look at it like it very intentionally neither confirms nor denies it.

Maybe Toriyama isn't sure about it so he told them just to hint at it but not to outright say he can or can't. Or he's saving it for later, maybe a rematch against Cabba where they both use it.

That or they couldn't get a hold of him so they had to make a quick decision and that's what they did.

[ChiefWamsutta]

This idea is starting to make me wonder if Trunks' 'Improved Super Saiyan 2' and Vegeta's 'Furious Super Saiyan 2' are actually different forms than Super Saiyan 2 like Grades 2-4 are different from Super Saiyan 1.

Maybe it goes:

Base ---> Super Saiyan ---> Super Saiyan Grade 2 ---> Super Saiyan Grade 3 ---> Super Saiyan Grade 4 (Goku and Future Trunks went this route)
Base ---> Super Saiyan ---> Super Saiyan Grade 2 ---> Super Saiyan Grade 4 (Vegeta went this route)
Base ---> Super Saiyan ---> Super Saiyan Grade 4 (Gohan went this route)

Super Saiyan 2 ---> Super Saiyan 2 Grade 2 (Furious Super Saiyan 2) (Vegeta went this route)
Super Saiyan 2 ---> Super Saiyan 2 Grade 4 (Improved Super Saiyan 2) ---> Super Saiyan 3 (Goku went this route)
Super Saiyan 2 ---> Super Saiyan 2 Grade 4 (Improved Super Saiyan 2) ---> Super Saiyan Rage (Future Trunks went this route)

So SS1 can link to Grade 2 and Grade 4. SS Grade 2 links to Grade 3 and Grade 4. SS Grade 3 links to Grade 4. SS2 can link to Furious and Improved. Improved links to SS3 and SSRage.

[The Monkey King]

I look at SSJ3 as basically overclocking the SSJ form, trying to get as much power as possible before you blow out.

[mcdjbeatz]

I think SSJ 3 is a transformation that you have strive for in order to achieve it, It would explain why Goku and Gotenks could achieve it and why Vegeta never seemingly achieved it as he clearly had no interest because he knew the flaws of the transformation were detrimental.

[90sDBZ]

I haven't seen Super yet so I'll just base my opinion from the stuff in Z. I've actually seen this theory of SS3 just being a "fluke", and essentially a useless form a couple of times before, but I personally don't agree with it. Even though the form can only be used for a short time, it can't be denied that it does give a tremendous increase in power and speed while it lasts, without any other notable drawbacks besides the fatigue that comes later. Let's stop and consider that Goku would have been slaughtered by Fat Buu without it, likewise with Gotenks and Super Buu.

If SS3 slowed the user down like the Grade 2 and Grade 3 forms I could understand the backlash it gets, but it doesn't have that problem. I felt like we were always led to believe that Goku simply hadn't had time to master the form yet. Same with Gotenks who had his training in the Time Chamber cut short, although he's implied to have a greater control of the form than Goku. I honestly consider Super Saiyan 3 to be a part of the natural transformation line, and believe that it too can be mastered with time. I know some have mentioned that it isn't achieved by anger, but let's remember that Goku and Vegeta both reached SS2 without anger too.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I don't think "fluke" is quite the word. It hypothetically could be useful, but only if the user is a good bit stronger than the opponent. However, it never has been useful, not even once. So it's clearly an inefficient technique.

[ekrolo2]

According to Super's manga where SS2 can get a multiplier into the tens of thousands range yes I would say it is a fluke, a far less effective one than amping SS2 is

[buutenks]

Goku perfected ssj3 in BoG. Aka, he had no energy issues like in the buy saga. Vs Trunks he uses it casually without a sweat. So no, ssj3 is not a fluke. Its a more powerful form of Ssj.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Goku perfected ssj3 in BoG

We don't know that. Nowhere is it actually stated, nor have we seen any indication of that being the case, since he's still only used it in very short bursts.

Not saying it's impossible, just that there's no reason to think that Goku has mastered it yet, or that he ever will.