The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by Speedster » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:27 am

Pantalones wrote:You're assuming Beerus is talking in terms of multipliers. Using Namek levels for example...

Base: 3,000,000
SSj: 150,000,000
SSj2: 300,000,000
SSj3: 1,200,000,000

...If you look at the raw numbers and not the percentage difference between them, SSj2 is a bigger boost than SSj -- it adds an entire Super Saiyan's worth of power on top of what the Super Saiyan already has. It's not that much more impressive than SSj, but getting the same boost again (in terms of the amount added to the power, not some multiplier) would only come up to 297,000,000... so it is a bit more of a boost. And of course the final result is a lot more than regular Super Saiyan, literally twice as strong, and a hundred times as strong as Goku's base form -- going from "can't even beat Freeza" to "can crush people who could effortlessly defeat Freeza." That's probably what Beerus was talking about more than anything.
But by BoGs Goku is, as a Super Saiyan, already well above the level of a guy who can crush guys who can one shot Freeza. As SSJ1 he is significantly above Semi Perfect who is someone who can crush guys (#17) who can one shot Freeza. Should't that already impress Beerus then?

To add further on that, I can go on and attack the very premise that base Goku is actually below Freeza or whether Freeza’s power was retconned for the purposes of the then upcoming RoF arc. To go back to the dialogue transcript that I included in my original post, after SSJ1 Goku fought Beerus for a while, Beerus commented that defeating Freeza is probably the best Goku can do.

(a) Some may say that this doesn't mean that Beerus is not acknowledging that SSJ1 Goku is much stronger than Freeza but that Beerus simply uses Freeza as a comparison because Freeza was the strongest ‘mortal’/ningen that Beerus was aware of that he knew that Goku knew about.

(b) However, the counter-argument to (a) is that when Goku later transformed into SSJ2, Beerus commented “so you surpassed your limits”. Beerus commenting about Goku surpassing his limits implies that he thinks there was a limit to Goku’s strength to begin with. Now what was this limit? If SSJ1 Goku, after his battle with Freeza, went on to become, say, 24x stronger (or from Beerus’ POV 30x stronger than Freeza – from just 1.25x-remember in ep. 3 Beerus did see an exert of the fight of SSJ Goku Vs Freeza), this would indicate to Beerus a huge improvement about Goku’s SSJ1 strength. But then it would make no sense for Beerus to talk about Goku “surpassing his limits”, simply because SSJ Goku had already shown that he doesn't need something special, like another transformation, to greatly surpass his previous strength milestone/limit.
Last edited by Speedster on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:34 am

I'm sure it will be all be explained when Super gets its first guide. We just have to wait a few months/years.

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:18 am

I don't know why people live and die by the whole set multipliers thing, when it's obvious the multipliers changed throughout the series. Like Goku and Gohan emerging from the ROSAT stronger than ever in SSJ, had to mean their SSJ' forms gave out much higher multipliers

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:33 am

OLKv3 wrote:I don't know why people live and die by the whole set multipliers thing, when it's obvious the multipliers changed throughout the series. Like Goku and Gohan emerging from the ROSAT stronger than ever in SSJ, had to mean their SSJ' forms gave out much higher multipliers
No, it just means their base forms became tremendously more powerful.

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:36 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
OLKv3 wrote:I don't know why people live and die by the whole set multipliers thing, when it's obvious the multipliers changed throughout the series. Like Goku and Gohan emerging from the ROSAT stronger than ever in SSJ, had to mean their SSJ' forms gave out much higher multipliers
No, it just means their base forms became tremendously more powerful.
But nobody ever mentioned their base forms increasing, they always talked about training their SSJ or improving their SSJ. Wasn't the whole reason of their relaxed SSJ forms is so they use all the energy of the form? Beerus himself implies that Base Goku can't beat Freeza, which would mean their bases hasn't improved that much since Namek until the whole God stuff.

To me, the Cell saga felt like them drawing the SSJ power to it's absolute limit before Gohan finally broke the wall to an even higher form.

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by Desassina » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:41 am

That is correct. Goku has even powered his SSJ form up to half at Korin and then all the way through against Cell. There's no mention of him being suppressed either, and that became a dogma all of these years, but he can still hold back.

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:48 am

OLKv3 wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:
OLKv3 wrote:I don't know why people live and die by the whole set multipliers thing, when it's obvious the multipliers changed throughout the series. Like Goku and Gohan emerging from the ROSAT stronger than ever in SSJ, had to mean their SSJ' forms gave out much higher multipliers
No, it just means their base forms became tremendously more powerful.
But nobody ever mentioned their base forms increasing, they always talked about training their SSJ or improving their SSJ. Wasn't the whole reason of their relaxed SSJ forms is so they use all the energy of the form? Beerus himself implies that Base Goku can't beat Freeza, which would mean their bases hasn't improved that much since Namek until the whole God stuff.

To me, the Cell saga felt like them drawing the SSJ power to it's absolute limit before Gohan finally broke the wall to an even higher form.
It doesn't suggest that at all, Freeza was 40x stronger than Goku on Namek, Goku could become ~35x stronger and still be considered weaker.

Also, the FPSSJ form is never treated as anything special in terms of power boost, most of the emphasis is placed on the fact that they can fight at full power without much stamina drain whereas normal SSJ drains a lot of energy thereby causing them to lose power quickly.

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by Speedster » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:36 am

The ridiculous thing about the limit being on the base and SSJ being a fixed multiplier is this. According to this logic:
Goku trained in SSJ1 to push the SSJ1 limit higher. In doing so his base which is fixed to being 1/50th of the SSJ1 would increase proportionally too. If say Goku went as SSJ1 from 250 million to 2000 million his base would go from 5million to 40 million. Vegeta with grade 2 may have multiplied his base by 60x but with his training he only increased his base from 5 to 15 million and therefore by x60 he became 900million - less than 50% of Goku.
The problem with all this is that if increasing the base was the issue and the multiplier was locked then why Goku after successfully pushing his base to 40 million through the FPSSJ training didn't later use grade 2 to multiply it by 60x and get to 2400million? Why stack with the regular x50 and go only to 2000million? Grade 2 unlike Grade 3 didn't have any disadvantages like slowing you down or anything. Surely it put more strain and possibly couldn’t be retained as long but these issues didn't prevent Goku from using Kaioken in the past or the SSJ3 later on. It makes far more sense to say that SSJ is a boost instead. Grade 1 could add 150 million, Grade 2 850million, Grade 3 1000million and FPSSJ 2000 million boost. It is an addition – not a multiplication.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Also, the FPSSJ form is never treated as anything special in terms of power boost, most of the emphasis is placed on the fact that they can fight at full power without much stamina drain whereas normal SSJ drains a lot of energy thereby causing them to lose power quickly.
And how does this affect the increases in base in any way?

All it means is that SSJ1's maximum boost was in fact bigger but was reduced due to drain. Goku with FPSSJ was reducing it by a lesser amount than with Grade 2. Like (and the numbers are for illustration purposes only)
SSJ1 maximum boost=520 million
SSJ1 Grade 2 boost=520mllion-120million (loss)=400million
FPSSJ1 boost= 520million-20million (loss)=500million

But that logic works only if you accept SSJ is fact an addition on the base and not a pure multiplication of the base with a fixed multiplier. Either this or FPSSJ1 has a higher multiplier than regular SSJ1.

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by OLKv3 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:46 am

I'm sorry but I disagree, to me, it feels like their base gains were barely anything special or noticeable. I never liked the whole set multipliers thing and I don't really trust all those contradicting guides either. I don't buy SSJ2 only being x2 SSJ and vice versa. Just my personal opinion and interpretation of the series, no big that you disagree, we have our own opinions after all

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Re: The SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3 relative increases according to Beerus & Whis (DBS ep.5)

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:50 am

OLKv3 wrote:I'm sorry but I disagree, to me, it feels like their base gains were barely anything special or noticeable. I never liked the whole set multipliers thing and I don't really trust all those contradicting guides either. I don't buy SSJ2 only being x2 SSJ and vice versa. Just my personal opinion and interpretation of the series, no big that you disagree, we have our own opinions after all
That's fair, but there's nothing really contradicting that either, in the Buu Arc Goku was much stronger than Vegeta in Base, SSJ and SSJ2, but once Vegeta went Majin he became equal to Goku in all 3 forms, this suggests the multipliers are the same for everyone after all.
Speedster wrote:The ridiculous thing about the limit being on the base and SSJ being a fixed multiplier is this. According to this logic:
Goku trained in SSJ1 to push the SSJ1 limit higher. In doing so his base which is fixed to being 1/50th of the SSJ1 would increase proportionally too. If say Goku went as SSJ1 from 250 million to 2000 million his base would go from 5million to 40 million. Vegeta with grade 2 may have multiplied his base by 60x but with his training he only increased his base from 5 to 15 million and therefore by x60 he became 900million - less than 50% of Goku.
The problem with all this is that if increasing the base was the issue and the multiplier was locked then why Goku after successfully pushing his base to 40 million through the FPSSJ training didn't later use grade 2 to multiply it by 60x and get to 2400million? Why stack with the regular x50 and go only to 2000million? Grade 2 unlike Grade 3 didn't have any disadvantages like slowing you down or anything. Surely it put more strain and possibly couldn’t be retained as long but these issues didn't prevent Goku from using Kaioken in the past or the SSJ3 later on. It makes far more sense to say that SSJ is a boost instead. Grade 1 could add 150 million, Grade 2 850million, Grade 3 1000million and FPSSJ 2000 million boost. It is an addition – not a multiplication.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Also, the FPSSJ form is never treated as anything special in terms of power boost, most of the emphasis is placed on the fact that they can fight at full power without much stamina drain whereas normal SSJ drains a lot of energy thereby causing them to lose power quickly.
And how does this affect the increases in base in any way?

All it means is that SSJ1's maximum boost was in fact bigger but was reduced due to drain. Goku with FPSSJ was reducing it by a lesser amount than with Grade 2. Like (and the numbers are for illustration purposes only)
SSJ1 maximum boost=520 million
SSJ1 Grade 2 boost=520mllion-120million (loss)=400million
FPSSJ1 boost= 520million-20million (loss)=500million

But that logic works only if you accept SSJ is fact an addition on the base and not a pure multiplication of the base with a fixed multiplier. Either this or FPSSJ1 has a higher multiplier than regular SSJ1.
When Goku points out the flaws of the Grade forms, he seems to be referring to both of them and decides that mastering regular SSJ is best. If Grade 2 does not have any flaws, why wouldn't he try to master that instead of regular SSJ? Plus given the chapter's title, "The Balance of Power" and the context it clearly suggests that Grade 2 is imbalanced as well, just to a lesser extent than Grade 3.

Also, Goku's base was just straight up much higher than Vegeta's at that time, the SEG lists staying as a Super Saiyan as an incredibly efficient method of training, the training EX section also says that Vegeta's training was focused on strengthening his muscles to the limit unlike Gohan who was training to strengthen and control his ki.

These are the boosts to Goku's stats the SEG lists for the RoSAT training:
Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3

Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8

So staying as a Super Saiyan grants a massive boost to all stats which is why Goku ended up so much stronger than Vegeta.

This is the page that shows the training boosts:
Image

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