Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

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Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Saturnine » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:44 am

Vegeta said that in normal forms he and Cabba were evenly matched. Of course he had a slight edge in stamina, which suggests that he was a tad stronger after all. Situations like this happen when the difference is negligible, as seen from Vegeta vs fist form Freeza back in Z (Vegeta was panting heavily while Freeza was not, but their scuffle ended in a draw). So let's say Cabba is 92-95% of Vegeta's power.

But in Super Saiyan the difference became humongous. Vegeta was able to casually no-sell a full power blow to the forehead and neutralize a ki blast barrage with a mere swipe of his arm. This at least hints that a mastered Super Saiyan can tap into a bigger multiplier.

I'm not saying it's 50x and 100x at this point in the series (though I'm not excluding the possibility either), seeing as how the characters are very powerful at this point in base, likely considerably beyond Freeza (let's not forget Goku and Vegeta had trained for 3 whole years). But the power relationship seems to still stand, FPSSj Vegeta was way stronger than a freshly unlocked SSj Cabba, while admittedly being more or less evenly matched in base forms.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by emperior » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:19 am

If Vegeta wasn't lying about him and Cabba really being equal in base, I think Vegeta's SSJ might be superior to Cabba's because Cabba was getting tired fast when transformed, and he also got beat up quite a bit before transforming.
Also Vegeta has quite a mastery over the SSJ form, but I don't think FPSSJ gives a higher power, just less drain.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Saturnine » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:38 am

emperior wrote:If Vegeta wasn't lying about him and Cabba really being equal in base, I think Vegeta's SSJ might be superior to Cabba's because Cabba was getting tired fast when transformed, and he also got beat up quite a bit before transforming.
Also Vegeta has quite a mastery over the SSJ form, but I don't think FPSSJ gives a higher power, just less drain.
There really wouldn't be much of a point to mastering it if that was all it gave IMO. Goku still used SSj3 when he had to, in spite of how energy-inefficient it was. There has to be some other benefit besides low energy drain and being able to freely modify your powerelvel.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Kaboom » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:58 pm

Personally, I wouldn't let anything from Super taint the perfectly functional established system for these things from before it. But even that aside, something like this is a little too weak to justify claims of "this proves <whatever>."

Maybe Super Saiyan works a little differently for Universe 6's Saiyans or something. Maybe Cabba's just more worn-down from the fight like emperior suggested.

Or more likely, and in-line with what we already know, maybe Vegeta having mastered the form just grants better ki management and lets him freely put more amplified oomph into his attacks. Like he and Cabba are both 10s in base and 500s as Super Saiyans, but Vegeta's mastery lets him put out bursts of 1,000 while Cabba can only work at like 700.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Desassina » Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:01 pm

Goku was relatively stronger when he had his full power versus the first time he discovered the transformation against Freeza. I guess that it would be fair to say that Cabba has only now discovered it as well. Vegeta had years of practice and a whole new realm ahead of him.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Saturnine » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:09 am

Kaboom wrote:Personally, I wouldn't let anything from Super taint the perfectly functional established system for these things from before it.
Yeah well, it's not like this is the first time something like this is suggested, it's just further evidence, a corroboration.

Let's not forget that FPSSj Goku was leagues ahead of Grade 3 Trunks.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:13 am

I'm with emperior and Kaboom here. Vegeta's mastery of Super Saiyan doesn't necessarily mean that he can put out more power than Cabba, just that he gets more mileage out of that power due to being able to control his Ki more freely and not having to deal with the inherent strain that Cabba has to right now. That, plus the fact that Cabba had already taken a bit of a beating before transforming netted Vegeta an easy win.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Saturnine » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:47 am

DanielSSJ wrote:I'm with emperior and Kaboom here. Vegeta's mastery of Super Saiyan doesn't necessarily mean that he can put out more power than Cabba, just that he gets more mileage out of that power due to being able to control his Ki more freely and not having to deal with the inherent strain that Cabba has to right now. That, plus the fact that Cabba had already taken a bit of a beating before transforming netted Vegeta an easy win.
That's cool and all, but that's not how you no-sell attacks. You do that when you're stronger.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by DBZ Macky » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:03 pm

The reason why Cabba didn't hurt Vegeta is probably the same reason why SS Goku didn't one shot Freeza who was at 50% power. The way I interpret is that when the Super Saiyan power is first achieved, it's boost isn't too different from a Kaio-Ken x20.

As the fight continues, the Saiyan's power continues to increase until it reaches the peak of 50x base power.
This is also why Freeza was able to somehow keep up initially.

So while Freeza's power was decreasing from strain, Goku was getting even more used to the form. Freeza never stood a chance at all.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by LightBing » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:21 pm

Mastered Super Saiyan and regular Super Saiyan are essentially the same thing. The difference is that, like Vegeta describes, Mastered SSJ allows them to raise their battle power in that state. This doesn't mean only better ki management like most people have been saying in this thread, that's basically ki control. Which advantages have been know in the fight's against the Saiyans and Freeza's army.

Before, Super Saiyan was mostly stale, the formula was basically: Base x (your multiplier of choice). That's why the characters instinct was to surpass SSJ, they had reached the ceiling of the transformation.

Afterwards, Super Saiyan become a state like base in that you can improve it: Base x (your multiplier of choice) + Improvement (training).
That's why it has more power than regular SSJ, you can't make up power with just better ki management.
This is what the fight shows, Vegeta is stronger than Cabba.

Vegeta's quote for reference:
[spoiler]Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”[/spoiler]
I hope my explanation made sense, I'm a little hazy.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Desassina » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:26 pm

So this thread has essentially turned into a defense of Full Power Super Saiyan's multiplier being the same as the one from Super Saiyan, when Goku has powered up in front of Korin up to half of his SSJ form, and no mention of him being suppressed was made. I can't work with years of assumptions and dogmas to be honest.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by DBZ Macky » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:34 pm

Well, that's bound to happen. Since the thread was made to attack that very notion anyways.
There is no concrete proof that FPSS is a bigger "multiplier" than regular SS.

What's worth noting is that FPSS isn't even a form anyways, it's just Super Saiyan Goku at full power. Period.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Kassavo » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:53 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:Well, that's bound to happen. Since the thread was made to attack that very notion anyways.
There is no concrete proof that FPSS is a bigger "multiplier" than regular SS.

What's worth noting is that FPSS isn't even a form anyways, it's just Super Saiyan Goku at full power. Period.
Exactly.

And to add to this point, of course FPSSj is better than SSj. The term full power signifies the user has mastered the ki control portion of the form, allowing for more efficient use of that ki. This equates to better stamina, control of emotion, and therefore more access to power in spurts imo.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Vegetes » Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:38 pm

Kassavo wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:Well, that's bound to happen. Since the thread was made to attack that very notion anyways.
There is no concrete proof that FPSS is a bigger "multiplier" than regular SS.

What's worth noting is that FPSS isn't even a form anyways, it's just Super Saiyan Goku at full power. Period.
Exactly.

And to add to this point, of course FPSSj is better than SSj. The term full power signifies the user has mastered the ki control portion of the form, allowing for more efficient use of that ki. This equates to better stamina, control of emotion, and therefore more access to power in spurts imo.
Wow your the first person I've met that thinks this too.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Kassavo » Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Vegetes wrote:
Kassavo wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote:Well, that's bound to happen. Since the thread was made to attack that very notion anyways.
There is no concrete proof that FPSS is a bigger "multiplier" than regular SS.

What's worth noting is that FPSS isn't even a form anyways, it's just Super Saiyan Goku at full power. Period.
Exactly.

And to add to this point, of course FPSSj is better than SSj. The term full power signifies the user has mastered the ki control portion of the form, allowing for more efficient use of that ki. This equates to better stamina, control of emotion, and therefore more access to power in spurts imo.
Wow your the first person I've met that thinks this too.
haha. well imo it makes perfect common sense, I'm surprised more people don't think of it this way tbh.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Tsufuru » Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:45 pm

ssj is basicly a power up , right?
so it comes down to which of the two got the better version of the same power up.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by ahill1 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:54 pm

FPSSJ/Mastered Super Saiya-jin having a bigger multiplier than the non-mastered Super Saiya-jin makes quite a bit of sense imo. Since after the defeat at the cyborgs' hands, them Saiyans constantly spoke how surpassing the SSJ wall would be needed mainly due to power. While Super Saiya-jin Grade 2 demands a constant effort to keep the transformation , it's somewhat doubtful they'd give up said transformation for the same old one if its boost is lower, even if this was mastered to its fully extent, since in other occasions Goku flat out opted for a transformation/technique that provided more power at the expense of worse stamina and control (Kaioken x3, Super Saiya-jin 3).

If the transformation was an useless one like Grade 3, then I won't deny that even a weaker transformation would be a lot better, since due to its speed issues you wouldn't be able to even touch your opponent. But for a transformation that also increases power and isn't really useless (even though it still eats energy at a faster peace), that isn't the case imo. The Grade 2 transformation allowed Vegeta to complete dominate an opponent [Semi Cell] whose full power should be at least equal to his Super Saiya-jin power, showing to be still effective against an opponent considerably weaker. If Vegeta opted to not use it against an opponent who was giving his Super Saiya-jin power big problems, I'd like to say that his mastery of such form made the multiplier at least on par with the Grade 2's form, hence why he, not Trunks, opted to a strongest form, since if them both yield similar increases, then the one you can better control your chi and has less strain would be the better option without a secon thought.

As for the topic, I only remember the manga fight, whereas Cabba is said to be able to hold his own against base Vegeta and Goku said SSJ Vegeta would be able to handle Cabba. I don't think "being able to hold hi own" clashes with "being weaker" so I wouldn't use the fight as evidence as far as the manga goes.

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:18 pm

ahill1 wrote:FPSSJ/Mastered Super Saiya-jin having a bigger multiplier than the non-mastered Super Saiya-jin makes quite a bit of sense imo. Since after the defeat at the cyborgs' hands, them Saiyans constantly spoke how surpassing the SSJ wall would be needed mainly due to power. While Super Saiya-jin Grade 2 demands a constant effort to keep the transformation , it's somewhat doubtful they'd give up said transformation for the same old one if its boost is lower, even if this was mastered to its fully extent, since in other occasions Goku flat out opted for a transformation/technique that provided more power at the expense of worse stamina and control (Kaioken x3, Super Saiya-jin 3).

If the transformation was an useless one like Grade 3, then I won't deny that even a weaker transformation would be a lot better, since due to its speed issues you wouldn't be able to even touch your opponent. But for a transformation that also increases power and isn't really useless (even though it still eats energy at a faster peace), that isn't the case imo. The Grade 2 transformation allowed Vegeta to complete dominate an opponent [Semi Cell] whose full power should be at least equal to his Super Saiya-jin power, showing to be still effective against an opponent considerably weaker. If Vegeta opted to not use it against an opponent who was giving his Super Saiya-jin power big problems, I'd like to say that his mastery of such form made the multiplier at least on par with the Grade 2's form, hence why he, not Trunks, opted to a strongest form, since if them both yield similar increases, then the one you can better control your chi and has less strain would be the better option without a secon thought.

As for the topic, I only remember the manga fight, whereas Cabba is said to be able to hold his own against base Vegeta and Goku said SSJ Vegeta would be able to handle Cabba. I don't think "being able to hold hi own" clashes with "being weaker" so I wouldn't use the fight as evidence as far as the manga goes.
You sorta answered why Grade 2 wasn't used after Super Saiyan Full Power became a thing. It's only effective against weaker opponents. Due to the stamina drain, it wouldn't be a worthwhile power-up if all it did was let you match your foe. Trunks' surprise over how Vegeta went straight into Grade 2 against 2nd Form Cell implies that Vegeta was roughly on the same level as Cell with his regular Super Saiyan form. Grade 2 turned what would've probably been an even match into a curb-stomp.
As far as Kaioken x3 and Super Saiyan 3 go, yes, Goku is willing to use a power-focused, stressful technique it he has too. However Goku couldn't beat Vegeta with the Kaioken x3. Despite being stronger than Vegeta, Goku straight up says that, unless he can finish Vegeta off quickly, he would've been the first one to fold. And with Super Saiyan 3, the form's power boost is so massive that it still is a (barely) worthwhile power-up. Even then, it only let him match Pure Boo's power, and he quickly lost stamina and would've lost if it weren't for the Genki Dama. Point is, these power-bloated techniques are only worthwhile if they let you surpass your opponent by a decent margin. They aren't worthwhile if all they do is let you match your opponent.

This is more of my personal head-cannon than anything else, and Super kinda contradicts it, but in my mind, Grade 2 and Grade 3 are just imperfect, inefficient manifestations of Super Saiyan 2, and that after a Saiyan masters the original Super Saiyan, the Grade forms are replaced with the potential to go Super Saiyan 2. But then Trunks uses Grade 3 in Super after already learning Super Saiyan 2, but eh.
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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Desassina » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:14 pm

We have seen this countless times in the anime and the manga. Grade II and SSJ2 were mutators that strengthened them, while Grade III and SSJ3 came at a cost, but their natural looking and fully powered state in SSJ and Gohan's base awaited. The trend continued with the God forms and their all new powerful base state. In other words:

Base -> Kaioken -> SSJ -> Grade II -> Grade III -> Full Power/SSJ -> SSJ2 -> SSJ3 -> Ultimate/Base -> SSJG -> SSJB

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Re: Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

Post by Saturnine » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:47 pm

ahill1 wrote:FPSSJ/Mastered Super Saiya-jin having a bigger multiplier than the non-mastered Super Saiya-jin makes quite a bit of sense imo. Since after the defeat at the cyborgs' hands, them Saiyans constantly spoke how surpassing the SSJ wall would be needed mainly due to power. While Super Saiya-jin Grade 2 demands a constant effort to keep the transformation , it's somewhat doubtful they'd give up said transformation for the same old one if its boost is lower, even if this was mastered to its fully extent, since in other occasions Goku flat out opted for a transformation/technique that provided more power at the expense of worse stamina and control (Kaioken x3, Super Saiya-jin 3).
Yeah, that's pretty much my reasoning on this. Not to mention that if FPSSj didn't at least overwrite the power otherwise given by Grade 2, Goku would most certainly have used it against Cell.
DanielSSJ wrote: You sorta answered why Grade 2 wasn't used after Super Saiyan Full Power became a thing. It's only effective against weaker opponents. Due to the stamina drain, it wouldn't be a worthwhile power-up if all it did was let you match your foe. Trunks' surprise over how Vegeta went straight into Grade 2 against 2nd Form Cell implies that Vegeta was roughly on the same level as Cell with his regular Super Saiyan form. Grade 2 turned what would've probably been an even match into a curb-stomp.
As far as Kaioken x3 and Super Saiyan 3 go, yes, Goku is willing to use a power-focused, stressful technique it he has too. However Goku couldn't beat Vegeta with the Kaioken x3. Despite being stronger than Vegeta, Goku straight up says that, unless he can finish Vegeta off quickly, he would've been the first one to fold. And with Super Saiyan 3, the form's power boost is so massive that it still is a (barely) worthwhile power-up. Even then, it only let him match Pure Boo's power, and he quickly lost stamina and would've lost if it weren't for the Genki Dama. Point is, these power-bloated techniques are only worthwhile if they let you surpass your opponent by a decent margin. They aren't worthwhile if all they do is let you match your opponent.
Yes, this is also a very good observation. Grade 2 and 3 indeed would only make sense to use if they would give you and advantage over a previously even foe, otherwise they're inefficient. I would also go out on a limb and say Grade 3 has exactly the same relationship with Grade 2. If say, Super Vegeta was completely even with Perfect Cell (at standby powerlevel, but they didn't know it at the time, obviously), Grade 3 would probably give him the edge. Alas, he was slower and weaker than Cell already. But many people are assuming Grade 3 makes you slower than Grade 2 in absolute terms (just because it's mentioned to be a form bad at speed), while it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Since Grade 2 Vegeta was already slower than Cell, even if his absolute speed stayed the same in Grade 3 instead of literally decreasing, he'd still not be able to catch Cell, try as he might. But that's another topic too. Two more things regarding the topic at hand:

1) I believe that while Grade 2 does drain energy, using it would still probably be a better choice in a hold-out scenario against a foe stronger 1,5x-2x than not using it. You might be able to only last 5 minutes in the form before your stamina runs out, but in regular Super Saiyan you'd be defeated in 30 seconds due to the sheer power difference.
2) The scenario you mentioned would be the perfect opportunity for Goku to whip out the form. He matched Cell's current powerlevel with his regular SSj, so putting Grade 2 on top of that would have given him an undeniable advantage. The fact that he didn't do that must signify that FPSSj gave him something similar to that form, or a replacement altogether.
This is more of my personal head-cannon than anything else, and Super kinda contradicts it, but in my mind, Grade 2 and Grade 3 are just imperfect, inefficient manifestations of Super Saiyan 2, and that after a Saiyan masters the original Super Saiyan, the Grade forms are replaced with the potential to go Super Saiyan 2. But then Trunks uses Grade 3 in Super after already learning Super Saiyan 2, but eh.
I do think a similar thing, but instead of bringing SSj2 into this, I just think Grade 2 and 3 are imperfect attempts of unleashing the full power of the first Super Saiyan level, while the perfect attempt is, well, Full Power Super Saiyan :P SSj2 goes on top of that and is superior in power to all these states. Trunks using Grade 3 over FPSSj in the Super anime was weird, and I don't know if it actually gave him power power than FPSSj did, or just the same power, only in a bigger and slower package. But RoF and later Super gave us a different, if a bit unrelated example, with Freeza mastering his body through training and therefore no longer needing to buff up when powering up to 100%. I dunno about you guys, but I've seen it as a direct analogy to the relationship between Grade 3 and FPSSj since day one. Same power, better control, less drawbacks.

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