Vegeta vs Cabba is evidence that FPSSj > SSj

[sintzu]

As far as I know, Ssj and SsjFP are the same exact form with the same power boost. the only difference is that FP happens when the user can use Ssj without it draining his power. If you look at the manga and original anime, it's never even called anything other than Ssj.

[DanielSSJ]

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I will admit that the idea of treating Full Power Super Saiyan/Grade 4 as having the power of Grade 3 in a more efficient package is a rather attractive idea, as it would make it easier to keep the base Saiyans below Freeza, but I'm still not 100% convinced, given how they really don't treat Goku's and Gohan's mastery over Super Saiyan as a new form with a higher power output. I just think that if their Super Saiyan form was utilizing the same power as Grade 2 and 3, it would've been mentioned. Instead, all that was really said was that they were as relaxed as Super Saiyans as they would be in their normal forms and that would allow them to fight unhindered by any physical and mental strains. What's more, even before Goku and Gohan try to train in that manner, Goku straight up says that the regular Super Saiyan is the best. The point of the story up until then was to surpass the Super Saiyan. After the initial fight with Perfect Cell, the message changed to say that powering-up excessively like that is the wrong way to do things, and that mastery over the original form is more important.

(More useless head-canons ahoy!) When Goku first sees Gohan go Super Saiyan 2 for the first time (filler not withstanding), his reaction can be interpreted as "There's a correct way to go beyond?"

[Saturnine]

<snip>

I will admit that the idea of treating Full Power Super Saiyan/Grade 4 as having the power of Grade 3 in a more efficient package is a rather attractive idea, as it would make it easier to keep the base Saiyans below Freeza, but I'm still not 100% convinced, given how they really don't treat Goku's and Gohan's mastery over Super Saiyan as a new form with a higher power output.

Well, not until the demonstration at Karin's, anyway. Not until that point did they realize it in fact lets you put out insane power.

I just think that if their Super Saiyan form was utilizing the same power as Grade 2 and 3, it would've been mentioned. Instead, all that was really said was that they were as relaxed as Super Saiyans as they would be in their normal forms and that would allow them to fight unhindered by any physical and mental strains.

That's because when they left the chamber, they were powered down. There's that quote by Vegeta where he says how it's so ingenious and how when they power up there won't be any strain on their bodies. Well, the thing is, regular Super Saiyans cannot power up, just like they can't power down. This alone suggests that it lets you unlock more power, if understood in a specific way. It can also be interpreted as being compared to Grade 2 and 3, which do let you power up, but at the cost of strain to your body. Those forms are still extensions of the first Super Saiyan level, and it's obvious that complete mastery will be superior.

[/quote]
What's more, even before Goku and Gohan try to train in that manner, Goku straight up says that the regular Super Saiyan is the best. The point of the story up until then was to surpass the Super Saiyan. After the initial fight with Perfect Cell, the message changed to say that powering-up excessively like that is the wrong way to do things, and that mastery over the original form is more important. [/quote]

More specifically, he said regular Super Saiyan is the best balance-wise. That suggests that while Grade 2 does increase your speed, it doesn't increase it in perfect proportion to your power. So when push comes to shove, it's still better to be a regular Super Saiyan with a powerlevel of say, 1 billion than a Grade 2 with the power of 1 billion, because the former will both be faster and experience less power drain. A Grade 3 Super Saiyan of the same powerlevel would be painfully slow compared to the former too, so indeed, a regular Super Saiyan is the best state to be in, but that's only at equal power. A bigger powerlevel trumps a smaller one in most cases, and not even the benefits of a fully mastered Super Saiyan could save a warrior from a Grade 2 enemy 1,5-2x stronger than himself.

Also, when Goku decided it would be best to focus on the regular Super saiyan form, he didn't know exactly what benefits mastering regular SSj would give him, he was only guessing. And yeah, the power drain was minimized like he expected, but he could also power up amazingly, in a way not seen with regular Super Saiyans up to that point. His power-up sequence against Cell was unprecedented. Perhaps the fireworks weren't as impressive as Trunks Grade 3 power-up, but that's because FPSSj has better power continence and control than Grade 3. Goku was already vastly superior to Grade 3 Trunks at this point, in power as well. I know many would just explain this by Goku's superior training gains because he was training with a partner, unlike Vegeta and Trunks, but I don't quite feel it could account for a difference that big on its own (SSj Goku could have been anywhere from 8 to 12x stronger than SSj Trunks at that point, and 2-3x stronger than Grade 3 Trunks). For me it therefore makes more sense to explain this huge power difference by assuming that FPSSj incorporates the power otherwise unlocked by Grade 3.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Also, when Goku decided it would be best to focus on the regular Super saiyan form, he didn't know exactly what benefits mastering regular SSj would give him, he was only guessing. And yeah, the power drain was minimized like he expected, but he could also power up amazingly, in a way not seen with regular Super Saiyans up to that point. His power-up sequence against Cell was unprecedented. Perhaps the fireworks weren't as impressive as Trunks Grade 3 power-up, but that's because FPSSj has better power continence and control than Grade 3. Goku was already vastly superior to Grade 3 Trunks at this point, in power as well. I know many would just explain this by Goku's superior training gains because he was training with a partner, unlike Vegeta and Trunks, but I don't quite feel it could account for a difference that big on its own (SSj Goku could have been anywhere from 8 to 12x stronger than SSj Trunks at that point, and 2-3x stronger than Grade 3 Trunks). For me it therefore makes more sense to explain this huge power difference by assuming that FPSSj incorporates the power otherwise unlocked by Grade 3.

You have Grade 3 at 4x SSJ? That seems pretty ridiculous.

[Desassina]

It would seem to me that a Super Saiyan's full power is at the tipping point of turning the character into a Super Saiyan 2, so with the latter being two times the strength of a SSJ, you could decompose its number into smaller parts for the grades. 1.024 times 1.25 is 1.28, the last two multipied by each other give 1.6, and the latter times 1.25 is 2.

Super Saiyan = whatever unit of power
Grade II SSJ = 1.25 or 1.28 times SSJ
Grade III SSJ = 1.6 times the unit
Full Power SSJ = 2 times SSJ

If Super Saiyan is 50, then the grades go from 62.5 or 64 to 80 and then 100, while a Super Saiyan 2 at the Cell Games is 200. Since Gohan didn't train, his power against Dabura could have been 100, which is the tipping point.

[Khin]

The way I see it, it seems like Cabba’s power as a Super Saiyan was considerably fading in their fight. At the start of his barrage of attacks, he and Vegeta seems to be roughly on par, until Vegeta effortlessly swatted all of his Ki blasts and tanked his punch. It’s probably also why Cabba reverted back to his regular form after he punched Vegeta in the forehead.

The reason for it is probably because in addition to Cabba’s thin body, he is just a newbie Super Saiyan who has yet to master the from. His power will considerably fade as the fight goes on, where he would eventually revert back to his regular form. Vegeta doesn’t have this kind of problem because he already mastered Super Saiyan ages ago, so he doesn’t have “gas leak”.

By the way, I disagree with the explanation that Cabba is weaker because he was already beaten up when he transformed. Goku’s power was fully restored after he turned Super Saiyan back in the Freeza arc (which is also supported by the battle powers in the Daizenshuu), so the same probably happened to Cabba, or for that matter, anyone who just turned Super Saiyan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The way I see it, it seems like Cabba’s power as a Super Saiyan was considerably fading in their fight. At the start of his barrage of attacks, he and Vegeta seems to be roughly on par, until Vegeta effortlessly swatted all of his Ki blasts and tanked his punch. It’s probably also why Cabba reverted back to his regular form after he punched Vegeta in the forehead.

The reason for it is probably because in addition to Cabba’s thin body, he is just a newbie Super Saiyan who has yet to master the from. His power will considerably fade as the fight goes on, where he would eventually revert back to his regular form. Vegeta doesn’t have this kind of problem because he already mastered Super Saiyan ages ago, so he doesn’t have “gas leak”.

By the way, I disagree with the explanation that Cabba is weaker because he was already beaten up when he transformed. Goku’s power was fully restored after he turned Super Saiyan back in the Freeza arc (which is also supported by the battle powers in the Daizenshuu), so the same probably happened to Cabba, or for that matter, anyone who just turned Super Saiyan.

Goku didn't have that problem against Freeza and that was a much longer fight.

[Khin]

Goku didn't have that problem against Freeza and that was a much longer fight.

As I said above, it happened to Cabba because of his thin body which results to low stamina and such (in the same fight, he got tired by just a little scuffle despite being equal to Vegeta). Goku is a well-built fighter, so naturally, his only problem would be the natural strain of the Super Saiyan form, which he greatly reduced once he mastered the form.

[LightBing]

Vegeta said the reduced strain allows them to raise their power level, implying they couldn't before. The idea that it's about only "power management" is contradictory to the rest of the series. If you have more power you win, even if it's inefficient. Unless your stupid (Golden Freeza) or the inefficiency is a blatant disadvantage(Grade 3).

To line up this with Freeza > Base Saiyans, starting this moment the Saiyans focused on training in SSJ to get stronger, instead of increasing Base to get the advantage of the multiplier.
This is the moment Mr.Toriyama "abandoned" the multipliers.

Vegeta is stronger than Cabba because his SSJ is better, not because of any different multiplier but because he trained the form to have more power. That's it. This is Dragon Ball power is the most relevant factor.
When it isn't the case they tell us! Did anyone say Cabba was burning more ki or that Vegeta was managing his better? If they didn't, Vegeta kicked Cabba's ass because he's stronger.

[ahill1]

You sorta answered why Grade 2 wasn't used after Super Saiyan Full Power became a thing. It's only effective against weaker opponents.

Yeah, the grade 2 transformation (or variation of SSJ, if you will) isn't as useless as the grade 3 one, that didn't give Trunks the advantage against Perfect Cell despite the fact that he was superior in raw power by a wide margin. The grade 2, on the other hand, gave Vegeta the upper hand against a foe considerably weaker (Semi Cell), who should be around SSJ Vegeta at full power, if not stronger.

Due to the stamina drain, it wouldn't be a worthwhile power-up if all it did was let you match your foe.

I didn't talk about an instance where grade 2 would just let you match your foe. Vegeta SSJ was slightly weaker than the Cell Junior, so transforming to grade 2 would probably let him with a wide advantage, most likely similar to the one he had against Semi Cell. Yet he didn't use it. If all the grade 2 form allowed Vegeta to was match his opponent, then it stands a reason he wouldn't use it, but if it gives him the upper hand against his enemy, then I don't see why he wouldn't opt to use this, even at the expense of lower stamina and control over it.

Goku apparentky had a worse control and stamina over the Kaioken x3 than Vegeta had over the grade 2 form, seeing even after a while (Vegeta's beating against Semi Cell lasted a while) he could still keep up such transformation and was even confident he could win against initial Perfect Cell, whose power ought to be at least somewhat close to his.

Grade 2 turned what would've probably been an even match into a curb-stomp.

The same way it could turn what was an even match (vegeta vs the mini cells, probably even a slight disadvantage) into a curb stomp.

As far as Kaioken x3 and Super Saiyan 3 go, yes, Goku is willing to use a power-focused, stressful technique it he has too. However Goku couldn't beat Vegeta with the Kaioken x3

And yet he opted to use such stressful technique, with solely the reason that he would have zero chance with the normal Kaioken. The same with the SSJ3... when he is having a pretty hard battle or is at a disadvantage he will no doubt resort to a transfornation/technique that allows him to tap in more power, even at the expense of poor chi control, poor stamina.

Point is, these power-bloated techniques are only worthwhile if they let you surpass your opponent by a decent margin. They aren't worthwhile if all they do is let you match your opponent.

Which would be the case at Vegeta vs Cell Junior and arguably at Goku vs suppressed Cell.

I just think Grade 2 and 3 are imperfect attempts of unleashing the full power of the first Super Saiyan level, while the perfect attempt is, well, Full Power Super Saiyan

I'd like to see the perfect attempt of grade 2 being the full power Super Saiyajin and the perfect attempt of grade 3 being the SSJ2.

Even though the FPSSJ isn't a new form, I like to think mastering it allows you to increase the power boost of such transformation, like if you were using the SSJ at its full potential, which gives you not just better stamina and chi control, but more overall power (which is generally seen as the more important trait by the Z warriors in general). Not to mention it also makes having the base Saiyajins weaker easier, even more with the 50% SSJ Goku >> warm up Goku/Cell implications.

[Saturnine]

I'm actually surprised that this many people agree with me. I thought I was alone on my reasoning, especially in regards to this:

Vegeta said the reduced strain allows them to raise their power level, implying they couldn't before. The idea that it's about only "power management" is contradictory to the rest of the series. If you have more power you win, even if it's inefficient. Unless your stupid (Golden Freeza) or the inefficiency is a blatant disadvantage(Grade 3).

You pretty much hit the nail on the head there, buddy.

It would seem to me that a Super Saiyan's full power is at the tipping point of turning the character into a Super Saiyan 2, so with the latter being two times the strength of a SSJ, you could decompose its number into smaller parts for the grades. 1.024 times 1.25 is 1.28, the last two multipied by each other give 1.6, and the latter times 1.25 is 2.

Super Saiyan = whatever unit of power
Grade II SSJ = 1.25 or 1.28 times SSJ
Grade III SSJ = 1.6 times the unit
Full Power SSJ = 2 times SSJ

If Super Saiyan is 50, then the grades go from 62.5 or 64 to 80 and then 100, while a Super Saiyan 2 at the Cell Games is 200. Since Gohan didn't train, his power against Dabura could have been 100, which is the tipping point.

I can dig pretty much everything you wrote, except that Gohan wasn't really a SSj2 against Dabura. His power would indeed be around 100 by your numbers tho.

You have Grade 3 at 4x SSJ? That seems pretty ridiculous.

Well, maybe it does and you have to excuse me, but I guess this is a subconscious leftover from the days of LegendarySSj7's powerlevel list. It really influenced me back in the day, and I still know a lot of powerlevels from it by heart. Indeed, he had Post RoSaT SSj Trunks at 2 billion, and at 8 billion while fully powered up in Grade 3. But that was back in the days when SSj2 was widely considered to be much more powerful than now. He had FPSSj Gohan at 16 billion and SSj2 Gohan at 190.

[Desassina]

It's nice that the logic is evolving from years of being told something else. Ranging power is much easier to grasp than fixed multipliers and it solves a whole lot of problems. I have a list of suggestions, which started to make sense to Saturnine, at least.

[spoiler]Base = [1, 50]
SSJ1 = [50, 100]
SSJ2 = [100, 400]
SSJ3 = [400, 6'400]

Power = Strength * Agility / Energy

Base - Power: 40 | Strength: 8 | Agility: 8 | Energy: 1.6
SSJ1 - Power: 50 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 2
(FP) - Power: 100 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 1[/spoiler]

What do we have here? A base state that is not at 1, but 40 times the character's power level, which gets distributed between strength and agility, multiplied by each other, and divided by energy spent. Super Saiyan is 50 times their battle power, which increases strength and agility by 10 fold, only to get divided by 2 in energy. Controlling it leads to higher power without changing your mass or becoming faster.

[AvatarReiko]

The way I see it is like this:

Base

Speed 50
Ki/Strength 50

SSJ:

Speed: 100
Ki/Strength: 100

SSJ Grade 2

Speed: 120
Ki/Strength: 150

SSJ Grade 3

Speed 100
Ki/Strength: 300