Why do people think that Android arc Trunks>Mecha arc Trunks?

[Tectorman]

No it was never stated at all that Nappa's power level exceeds 4,000. Nappa's better performance was entirely credited due to him calming down and being more focused.

And this coincided with Goku suddenly doing much worse, losing focus, powering down inexplicably, or whatever it was you think happened to make him, a fighter confirmed by direct statement to be over 8,000, feel like he would need the Kaioken to dominate Nappa?

I mean, how exactly does that work? Is Goku just a really sucky fighter so his unskilled 8,000 can be matched by a focused 4,000? Considering he was comparable to Vegeta in terms of skill, does that make Vegeta also an unskilled fighter, albeit one with a higher power level? Why then would Nappa need Vegeta to tell him to calm down if he is just that much more brilliant as a fighter?

Ignoring the 4,000 figure regardless of how official it may be (or more likely, treating as being a reference to what he was doing before Goku showed up) keeps that confusion from happening.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

And this coincided with Goku suddenly doing much worse, losing focus, powering down inexplicably, or whatever it was you think happened to make him, a fighter confirmed by direct statement to be over 8,000, feel like he would need the Kaioken to dominate Nappa?

I mean, how exactly does that work? Is Goku just a really sucky fighter so his unskilled 8,000 can be matched by a focused 4,000? Considering he was comparable to Vegeta in terms of skill, does that make Vegeta also an unskilled fighter, albeit one with a higher power level? Why then would Nappa need Vegeta to tell him to calm down if he is just that much more brilliant as a fighter?

Ignoring the 4,000 figure regardless of how official it may be (or more likely, treating as being a reference to what he was doing before Goku showed up) keeps that confusion from happening.

There is no confusion. There's nothing wrong with the fight with Nappa being 4,000. The "confusion" is 100% fan made and that's from trying to make things needlessly over-complicated due to inherent bias. Toriyama wasn't "confused" when he made Nappa(4,000) fight Goku(8,000) and the Daizenshuu writers weren't "confused" when they revealed Nappa's power level.

No, Goku didn't power down. By calming down and becoming focused, Nappa was able to dodge 1 of Goku's kick and not get instantly demolished in a very brief exchange. That's about it. Goku was decisively stronger, but beating Nappa without the Kaioken would take awhile.

[miguelnuva1]

And this coincided with Goku suddenly doing much worse, losing focus, powering down inexplicably, or whatever it was you think happened to make him, a fighter confirmed by direct statement to be over 8,000, feel like he would need the Kaioken to dominate Nappa?

I mean, how exactly does that work? Is Goku just a really sucky fighter so his unskilled 8,000 can be matched by a focused 4,000? Considering he was comparable to Vegeta in terms of skill, does that make Vegeta also an unskilled fighter, albeit one with a higher power level? Why then would Nappa need Vegeta to tell him to calm down if he is just that much more brilliant as a fighter?

Ignoring the 4,000 figure regardless of how official it may be (or more likely, treating as being a reference to what he was doing before Goku showed up) keeps that confusion from happening.

There is no confusion. There's nothing wrong with the fight with Nappa being 4,000. The "confusion" is 100% fan made and that's from trying to make things needlessly over-complicated due to inherent bias. Toriyama wasn't "confused" when he made Nappa(4,000) fight Goku(8,000) and the Daizenshuu writers weren't "confused" when they revealed Nappa's power level.

No, Goku didn't power down. By calming down and becoming focused, Nappa was able to dodge 1 of Goku's kick and not get instantly demolished in a very brief exchange. That's about it. Goku was decisively stronger, but beating Nappa without the Kaioken would take awhile.

Toriyama never made Nappa was 4000, the daiz did which wasn't written by Toriyama. The only thing Toriyama ever said about Nappa is that a Saiyan's power level will raise the longer they fight till they are able to turn the tables on their opponent.

[dragonball0900]

There is no confusion. There's nothing wrong with the fight with Nappa being 4,000. The "confusion" is 100% fan made and that's from trying to make things needlessly over-complicated due to inherent bias. Toriyama wasn't "confused" when he made Nappa(4,000) fight Goku(8,000) and the Daizenshuu writers weren't "confused" when they revealed Nappa's power level.

No, Goku didn't power down. By calming down and becoming focused, Nappa was able to dodge 1 of Goku's kick and not get instantly demolished in a very brief exchange. That's about it. Goku was decisively stronger, but beating Nappa without the Kaioken would take awhile.

The 4,000 number could interpretated both ways:

1. It was the number for Nappa when he was fighting Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan and the others.

2. It's a wrong number. Just like the 180 and 260 from the 22nd Budokai/King Piccolo arc.

It could be either way, but what it is sure here is that the 4,000 number doesn't fit at all for the fight with Goku. You don't seem to understand that when a character is twice stronger than the other is a complete stomp. And you're also forgetting how Goku in base was not able to chase Nappa when he was trying to kill Gohan and Krillin, he had to use kaioken for that. If Nappa was 4,000, Goku wouldn't need Kaioken at all!

[Son_Gohan]

Tien is talking about Sick Goku's standing around power. He saw Goku and Trunks 4 years ago and was still surprised at Goku's power before fighting. We also know that Gohan who trained Trunks knew he wasn't as strong as Yardart Goku and he kept fighting the Androids.

Based on dialogue it makes since Trunks fought them one more time after he returned to the future.

Tien doesn't proclaim that Goku became stronger, he just acts as if it were the first time he had seen Super Saiyan; no reference is made to the power Goku had 3 years prior, which could allude that it wouldn't have changed much. Even Super Saiyan Goku wouldn't have stood a chance against the Androids, all the Super Saiyans are around the same level in that regard.

No it doesn't, because Trunks went back in time so that he could find a way to beat the Androids and placed all his hope on Goku to fulfilling that. It shows by him not wanting to touch the Present Androids at all even with the Z Warriors there to help him, until Goku recovered from his heart disease.

[Tectorman]

There is no confusion. There's nothing wrong with the fight with Nappa being 4,000. The "confusion" is 100% fan made and that's from trying to make things needlessly over-complicated due to inherent bias. Toriyama wasn't "confused" when he made Nappa(4,000) fight Goku(8,000) and the Daizenshuu writers weren't "confused" when they revealed Nappa's power level.

No, Goku didn't power down. By calming down and becoming focused, Nappa was able to dodge 1 of Goku's kick and not get instantly demolished in a very brief exchange. That's about it. Goku was decisively stronger, but beating Nappa without the Kaioken would take awhile.

The 4,000 number could interpretated both ways:

1. It was the number for Nappa when he was fighting Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan and the others.

2. It's a wrong number. Just like the 180 and 260 from the 22nd Budokai/King Piccolo arc.

It could be either way, but what it is sure here is that the 4,000 number doesn't fit at all for the fight with Goku. You don't seem to understand that when a character is twice stronger than the other is a complete stomp. And you're also forgetting how Goku in base was not able to chase Nappa when he was trying to kill Gohan and Krillin, he had to use kaioken for that. If Nappa was 4,000, Goku wouldn't need Kaioken at all!

Yep. There's no question about whether the 4,000 figure for Nappa is official, it's just that it doesn't work and its "officialness" isn't enough to outweigh that. Here's another one, even more official (in that this is a character on-screen saying it), and just as dismissible for its unworkability: Frieza's claim to reach the uber-vaunted level of 1.3 million after just four months of training.

That's the official word on the subject. And I don't know of anyone that doesn't also ignore the bejeebus out of it, too.

[miguelnuva1]

Tien is talking about Sick Goku's standing around power. He saw Goku and Trunks 4 years ago and was still surprised at Goku's power before fighting. We also know that Gohan who trained Trunks knew he wasn't as strong as Yardart Goku and he kept fighting the Androids.

Based on dialogue it makes since Trunks fought them one more time after he returned to the future.

Tien doesn't proclaim that Goku became stronger, he just acts as if it were the first time he had seen Super Saiyan; no reference is made to the power Goku had 3 years prior, which could allude that it wouldn't have changed much. Even Super Saiyan Goku wouldn't have stood a chance against the Androids, all the Super Saiyans are around the same level in that regard.

No it doesn't, because Trunks went back in time so that he could find a way to beat the Androids and placed all his hope on Goku to fulfilling that. It shows by him not wanting to touch the Present Androids at all even with the Z Warriors there to help him, until Goku recovered from his heart disease.

Tien trained for 3 years and got a lot stronger and was still shocked at SSJ Goku's power to point it was like he had made no head way catching up. Sick Goku is as much stronger than Yardart Goku as Tien was to himself 3 years ago.

Trunks also goes from having no chance against them to could fight them fairly well and he had 8 months to train. Trunks wouldn't just stand around if the Androids showed up so he likely fought them once more, lost and then decided Goku was the only chance.

[Son_Gohan]

Tien trained for 3 years and got a lot stronger and was still shocked at SSJ Goku's power to point it was like he had made no head way catching up. Sick Goku is as much stronger than Yardart Goku as Tien was to himself 3 years ago.

Trunks also goes from having no chance against them to could fight them fairly well and he had 8 months to train. Trunks wouldn't just stand around if the Androids showed up so he likely fought them once more, lost and then decided Goku was the only chance.

You're making one assumption to make another assumption; neither is stated.

Trunks never said he would fight the androids again when he returned nor did he say he'd train. The Androids didn't show up to fight him, Trunks went to them, and for him to survive two-on-one, he'd have to be able to fight them "fairly well".

[miguelnuva1]

Tien trained for 3 years and got a lot stronger and was still shocked at SSJ Goku's power to point it was like he had made no head way catching up. Sick Goku is as much stronger than Yardart Goku as Tien was to himself 3 years ago.

Trunks also goes from having no chance against them to could fight them fairly well and he had 8 months to train. Trunks wouldn't just stand around if the Androids showed up so he likely fought them once more, lost and then decided Goku was the only chance.

You're making one assumption to make another assumption; neither is stated.

Trunks never said he would fight the androids again when he returned nor did he say he'd train. The Androids didn't show up to fight him, Trunks went to them, and for him to survive two-on-one, he'd have to be able to fight them "fairly well".

Then how did Trunks go from weaker than Yardart Goku to stronger than Piccolo who could handle the androids who were not as bad as the rumors made them out to be.

The rumors were they would beat Yardat Goku easily and both Piccolo and Vegeta say they weren't that bad, not they weren't anywhere near.

20 and 19 if if not by a lot are stronger than Yardat Goku which means Trunks and Piccolk are as well.

[Son_Gohan]

Then how did Trunks go from weaker than Yardart Goku to stronger than Piccolo who could handle the androids who were not as bad as the rumors made them out to be.

The rumors were they would beat Yardat Goku easily and both Piccolo and Vegeta say they weren't that bad, not they weren't anywhere near.

20 and 19 if if not by a lot are stronger than Yardat Goku which means Trunks and Piccolk are as well.

SSJ Goku & SSJ Trunks weren't going all-out in their little sword fight, Goku mentions as much.

The initial androids were that bad in comparison to the real ones that Vegeta allows #19 to drain his energy to a significant degree, after he already stole SSJ Goku's, and yet still beats him easily; meaning they don't rival the Super Saiyans even after draining their energy.

[miguelnuva1]

Then how did Trunks go from weaker than Yardart Goku to stronger than Piccolo who could handle the androids who were not as bad as the rumors made them out to be.

The rumors were they would beat Yardat Goku easily and both Piccolo and Vegeta say they weren't that bad, not they weren't anywhere near.

20 and 19 if if not by a lot are stronger than Yardat Goku which means Trunks and Piccolk are as well.

SSJ Goku & SSJ Trunks weren't going all-out in their little sword fight, Goku mentions as much.

The initial androids were that bad in comparison to the real ones that Vegeta allows #19 to drain his energy to a significant degree, after he already stole SSJ Goku's, and yet still beats him easily; meaning they don't rival the Super Saiyans even after draining their energy.

That don't have to be going all out. Piccolo and Vegeta said they weren't as bad as the rumors made them out to be not that they were nothing like the rumors.

That alone puts them above Yardart Goku.

[Son_Gohan]

That don't have to be going all out. Piccolo and Vegeta said they weren't as bad as the rumors made them out to be not that they were nothing like the rumors.

That alone puts them above Yardart Goku.

So SSJ Goku doesn't have to be that different from SSJ Trunks since they weren't going at it to their full potential. They never sensed either androids, if they can't even juxtapose their powers with precision, then why are you?

Even by your logic, if just time and training is enough reason for them to become stronger, then Trunks would naturally be the strongest since he had Super Saiyan the longest... but it's not shown to work that way.

[miguelnuva1]

That don't have to be going all out. Piccolo and Vegeta said they weren't as bad as the rumors made them out to be not that they were nothing like the rumors.

That alone puts them above Yardart Goku.

So SSJ Goku doesn't have to be that different from SSJ Trunks since they weren't going at it to their full potential. They never sensed either androids, if they can't even juxtapose their powers with precision, then why are you?

Even by your logic, if just time and training is enough reason for them to become stronger, then Trunks would naturally be the strongest since he had Super Saiyan the longest... but it's not shown to work that way.

Trunks said the Androids are strong enough to crush him. Yardrat Goku is not far from Trunks as you said even though Trunks is amazed at Goku. But we will keep them close. If said Androids make Trunks power less these same Androids will make Yardart Goku look power less.

There years later 19 and 20 the wrong Androids appear. SIck Goku has his way with 19 till the Kamehameha and later both Vegeta and Piccolo say the Androids aren't as bad as the rumors made them to be.

Piccolo and Vegeta's comments show that while 19 and 20 would have likely beat Goku and Trunks from the Trunks saga they weren't as strong as Trunks was making them out to be. Piccolo and Vegeta were expecting two Androids that Yardrat SSJ Goku wouldn't have a chance against.

Later on the same Piccolo who beat the Androids who would have beat Yardart Goku still admits that he is weaker than Android Saga Trunks.

[Son_Gohan]

Trunks said the Androids are strong enough to crush him. Yardrat Goku is not far from Trunks as you said even though Trunks is amazed at Goku. But we will keep them close. If said Androids make Trunks power less these same Androids will make Yardart Goku look power less.

There years later 19 and 20 the wrong Androids appear. SIck Goku has his way with 19 till the Kamehameha and later both Vegeta and Piccolo say the Androids aren't as bad as the rumors made them to be.

Piccolo and Vegeta's comments show that while 19 and 20 would have likely beat Goku and Trunks from the Trunks saga they weren't as strong as Trunks was making them out to be. Piccolo and Vegeta were expecting two Androids that Yardrat SSJ Goku wouldn't have a chance against.

Later on the same Piccolo who beat the Androids who would have beat Yardart Goku still admits that he is weaker than Android Saga Trunks.

Except Goku never fought the androids in Trunks' timeline and the major difference is that all the Z Warriors are there for support. Trunks has to fight two androids alone. The initial androids in the present timeline were fought individually. You're treating both as if they are equatable circumstances when that is not the case.

[dragonball0900]

Something to point out here is that Piccolo was confident in defeating the Androids. He sensed Goku's power in Yadrat, and knew that that power wouldn't be enough for the Androids. For Piccolo to be confident in defeating the Androids, he should be placed above Yadrat Goku.

SSJ Future Trunks < Yadrat Goku < Androids Saga Piccolo

That's stated.

[dbgtFO]

Something to point out here is that Piccolo was confident in defeating the Androids. He sensed Goku's power in Yadrat, and knew that that power wouldn't be enough for the Androids. For Piccolo to be confident in defeating the Androids, he should be placed above Yadrat Goku.

SSJ Future Trunks < Yadrat Goku < Androids Saga Piccolo

That's stated.

Piccolo never clarified that he was confident he could beat them on his own. He might as well have thought that Goku with his and the others help should be capable of beating them together, because he knows how much Goku has improved.