How strong is Base Goku?

[Saiyan007]

Anywhere from SSJ3 level - SSJG level,Toei just picks at random how strong Goku will be for the episode

[Tectorman]

Atsushi Kido's idea of how strong Black is may not be shared with Akira Toriyama. And no, just because Goku used it all of one second against a "fused" character does not mean that the actual benefit isn't that much. This was not long after the U6 vs U7 tournament so he would not have had the time to perfect it. The only reason we didn't see him constantly using it is because he hadn't perfected it.

What does it matter how long or quickly it was used or whether it had been perfected? It represents Goku's highest level of ability, and according to the closest we thus far have to a direct statement on the power rankings, Beerus > Goku Black > Goku. Even if Goku had never used the Kaioken during that entire arc (not Goku Black, not Merged Zamasu, not anyone at any time), it would still be subject to that comparison.

Why does it suggest that? We were told that God Ki couldn't normally be sensed. Nowhere does it say that property can be transferred to normal Ki. As I said, that is an additional assumption that must be made if we're going with your method of evaluating Goku's power.

So what you're telling me is that Goku's non-God ki is the only thing that's effected by Kaioken? You're also telling me that there at different layers of masking going on? Why would Hit be able to sense through the mask to sense Goku's normal Ki but not sense through the mask and sense Goku's God Ki? And why would Hit even be surprised by this exactly if, as you say, Kaioken's benefit is not that much? I say this because Goku and Vegeta are, around about, Ultimate Gohan level in their base forms now. That means that they are anywhere between 1% and 9% of Beerus power. Now, I will agree that 10x 1% is not a lot. It would give Goku 10% of Beerus full power. But 10x 9% is 90% of Beerus' full power. That is a massive jump. It's hardly small. So, what is it? Why is Hit surprised? Is it because Goku is currently 9% of Beerus and his Kaioken x10 has pushed him up to 90%? That would conflict with your statement that Kaioken doesn't provide much of a benefit. No? And if it only amplified his power to 10% of Beerus full power then why is Hit shocked in the first place?

I don't consider the rules for how God Ki works to be as set in stone as you do. We already saw Goku go from SSG (and can't be sensed) to SSJ (can be sensed, and just as strong). So I'm a lot more open to the idea of properties being transferred back and forth. We definitively saw God Ki strength still apply without God Ki masking. Who's to say God Ki can't extend masking to normal Ki?

Yes, I'm saying the Kaioken only affects normal Ki, not God Ki. Not incidentally, King Kai only has God Ki and cannot use the Kaioken. Intentional? Oh, certainly not, that was written years ago, but still supportive.

Hit's a never-before-seen alien with never-before-seen abilities from a new universe entirely. We'd previously seen a character who could shunt destructive forces to an alternate dimension. Who exactly then is to say that Hit's method of sensing would of course be exactly or even peripherally like what our characters do?

Goku's use of the Kaioken was surprising because whereas Goku was before at a certain high but fixed level of power, giving Hit trouble already, now he's getting even stronger. Even if he's only going from, say, 1050 to 1100, Hit would still take that as an unfortunate turn of events if that 1050 was already difficult to deal with, to say nothing of what happens when it goes to 1500.

Or, to borrow from DBZ Abridged, when you're already having trouble with "Kaioken times three", you don't want to hear that go up, not even to "Kaioken times three-and-a-half".

I'm lost as to what you're trying to say here or how this pertains to the possibility that regular Ki can somehow be masked along with God Ki.

The same thing I that clarify above, that since one God Ki property was proven to be transitive before, it follows that other properties could also be transitive.

You're saying this "two-base theory" but that does not hold up. I've already posited this before but if Goku or Vegeta somehow did have second base forms then why have the characters not questioned their strength before? They would have surely found it peculiar when they are beating characters who should be much more powerful than them. If Goku without SSbG is equivalent to being below Full Power Freeza from Namek still. And Goku is fighting on par, if not better, than a character who is Majin Boo level. Why have we not received dialogue from the cast about such events? We'd get a scene such as this:

Kuririn: "How is Goku beating Boo with this powerlevel?!"
Whis: "Goku is blending his God Ki with his regular Ki to make himself vastly stronger than normal strength."

Yet not once have the characters been confused about Goku's strength level, when they could sense him anyway. Are you telling me that the glanced over this fact when they have been pretty consistent about characters mentioning Goku's Ki vanish when he transforms into a SSJB? We have at least three instances of it being noted, that I recall anyway. When Goku went up against Golden Freeza, when Goku went up against Hit and then again when Goku went up against Hit a second time when Goku asked Vados to put out a hit on himself.

Because the characters were already introduced to this before. Goku had SSG power in a form that could be sensed. They witnessed this, they commented on this, so why would they forget what they knew just to bring it up again? For the audience's benefit? Remember, the anime was still taking its cues from the movies, which were operating under the God-tier Base/SSB paradigm. Trying to retcon the power levels probably wasn't a gleam in anyone's eye yet. Since that was the obvious paradigm, the writers would have no need to have any characters spell it out.

Question: before the U6 arc, was anyone at all putting forward the idea that Goku hadn't kept all of the SSG power? And if no, then that's your answer. The characters already know what they knew and no one else was confused either.

But again, there would have to be a reason why characters like Gohan can keep up with their base forms. That is completely impossible when you consider that Beerus didn't have to use even 10% of his power to wipe the floor with Gohan and the others and SSJG would have to be above 10% for Beerus to even entertain it. Why would Beerus like to fight an opponent who was the same level as Vegeta was? He already experienced that. So, justifying a power decrease is more than doing it to fix the Kaioken multiplier. It is also to fix power inconsistencies between a few characters. Like I also said, it is much more believeable that Vegeta trained to get to a Goku, who lost some of the Ki afterwards, than a Goku who retained all the Ki.

Goku is in the process of getting an "Ultimate form" himself. We've seen spoilers in the opening and ending of Super that shows what happens when Goku breaks his limit. He reverts to a steaming Goku. If Gohan is only keeping up with regular Base and regular SSJ then why is Gohan not decimating Goku? Because unless you're telling me Goku and Vegeta have increased their regular Base and SSJ forms to be 400x stronger then I would have to disagree. And why would Vegeta even have this SbG form anyway? He never absorbed any God Ki into his base form from SSJG because he never became one. Goku stated in FnF that Vegeta achieved his strength and the ability to transform into SSJB all by himself.

Okay, I need to clarify my stance on that. I have said that "their normal Base forms getting Buu-tier strong (and that being the end of it)" does not suffice for me due to the issues that I've listed. I've never said that I didn't think their normal Base forms improved. Indeed, I'm saying that Goku's use of the Kaioken ultimately results in him being at "10(50X) + Y", where X is his normal Ki and Y is the God Ki. And even if the Kaioken is only a small boost to the previous total (enough to make a difference, even one as small as the 12.5% gap between Vegeta and Kaiox2 Goku back in the Saiyan Saga), that X still has to be more substantial than >Namek Frieza. Definitely above Buu Saga Mystic Gohan.

So Gohan can definitely have improved since BoG, even a lot, even to the point of now being estimated to still have more potential than Goku or Vegeta, while still only being even with normal Base Goku.

As for Vegeta, whatever method he used to arrive at the point where he could use SSB is the same method for his acquisition of a God-tier Base. Maybe it was on the road to SSB, maybe it was originally supposed to be its own thing and then he and Goku progressed that to full-fledged SSB. But your question of how Vegeta would have a SbG form is my question of how he would have a SSB form. He obviously has a SSB form, it happened somehow, even if the how is insufficiently explained, so I don't consider him having a SbG form to be any hurdle.

The only reason Vegeta struggled to get to the same level with Goku in the Boo arc is because Goku already had a massive lead from the Cell Games, Gohan and Goku were the only two who could battle Cell decently in their regular SSJ forms. Coupled with the fact that Goku was dead so he could literally train all day without rest. It's no wonder Vegeta was playing catch up for those 7 years. Had the circumstances been different I would argue that it would be Vegeta who outstripped Goku.

True, but even his seven years of steadfast training didn't give him even peripherally the same relative gains the few months of training under Whis gave him, whether that be up to God-tier or even merely to Buu-tier. But since, implausible though it may be, Whis's training in that short a period of time was able to give him Buu-tier gains anyway, it isn't substantially more implausible to say that training got him up towards God-tier.

Goku did not fight Black with SSBKKx10. Ever. The only time Goku used it in the Mirai Trunks arc was against a fused Zamasu. And it was for a single kick. Which he decimated a fused Zamasu with anyway. And that was only KKx2. Not even 10. Also, Goku had the advantage against Hit the whole fight with SSBKKx10.

Again, whether he used it or not is not at issue. We already have it from someone on staff that the ranking is "Beerus > Goku Black > everyone else who isn't fused". So SSR tops SSBKKx10. But not by much since SSB was still able to occasionally do okay against SSR. But if we're taking the statement that "Goku and Vegeta aren't going to be surpassing Beerus yet" to also mean "including SSBKKx10", then doesn't that same provision go for how Goku compares to Goku Black? And if it's because it's not from Toriyama, then why do we not apply that to the Kaioken itself? The anime does not have primacy. Both it and the manga are their own takes on Toriyama's original idea, and there is no Kaioken in the manga. Not to mention how the introduction of the Kaioken and the multiplier it ended up at contradicts both his own original intention for how strong Goku was supposed to be after BoG (more than halfway to Beerus after one fight) AND what the anime presented (Vegeta pushing Beerus to 10% and SSG giving a much better fight than that). So I think that if we're including the Kaioken at all, then we're also including Kido's interview. That's why I have the Kaioken operating the way I do; so that it still exists without being the paradigm-shifting monstrosity that I don't think anyone (Toriyama, the anime staff, none of them) ever meant it to be.

I can think of one. Gotenks fusion is one we've had to rationalize away. Purely because there is a lot of contention as to whether Gotenks surpassed Goku. Considering Goku stated that Gotenks should be able to handle Fat Boo. That would make Gotenks around 8x stronger than Goku, if not more considering gains made in the RoSaT.

That's simultaneously a very good point and completely irrelevant. Gotenks's ultimate power is uncertain. We know it's a product of lots of training, transformations, and the then-new Fusion technique, but since training gains and SSJ multipliers are pretty reliable for modeling like 95% of the series anyway, what that leaves us is questioning how Fusion works and if its introduction serves as a sufficient enough impetus to change how what was previously established to still be true now (i.e., some people thinking Gotenks's SSJ was only Base x4).

Goku isn't a fused character but the overall point still stands. He is the product of lots of training, a few Zenkais, and now the new God Ki. Oh, but there's also the power of the Oozaru that he internalized after the Ultra Divine Water back in Dragonball. You claim the God Ki is what stabilized at a lower level than what we saw at the end of the BoG fight, but you could have pointed the finger at the Oozaru buff, saying that it was what went away*. You didn't for the same reason I have God Ki acting the way I think it does; because it's what's new and ill-defined, so we're fine with tweaking it whichever way we need to to make the story make more sense.

*[spoiler]Heck, the movie would support this. In the flashback, the original SSG had a tail and was fighting Oozarus, so presumably there was a full moon. And yet, we didn't see a SSG Oozaru. One could easily conclude that SSG isn't compatible with the Oozaru and that, after the BoG fight, Goku kept all the God power but it drove out his inner Oozaru. This has the added benefit that losing the Oozaru's x10 offsets gaining the Kaiokenx10 exactly. It doesn't resolve the "SSB surpassed SSG" problem or the Hit fight, though.[/spoiler]

The issue is you're making up more rules and methods just to justify your own reasoning here. Occam's razor my friend, the more assumptions you make the more chance you have of being incorrect. It is often best to go with the simpler answer. My reasoning is based off the assumption that Goku's power just stabilized. But your reasoning is based of the assumptions that A) Goku and Vegeta mask their normal Ki with the effect of God Ki. B) There are different layers to masking their Ki. and C) Kaioken only effects a portion of Goku's Ki.

See, I don't see that as multiple assumptions, just multiple instances of one assumption: that how God Ki works is not set in stone and therefore can be defined how it needs to be to make the story make more sense. The same one assumption that you make when you claim he stabilized lower.

Now, as for Occam's razor, it says that when SSB is specifically said to have surpassed SSG, that the takeaway from that is "SSB surpassed SSG". Pretty cut and dry. I mean, back in the Buu Saga when Goku described SSJ2 as having surpassed SSJ, it was pretty well understood that that meant all-around better; was anyone trying to explain it being better than SSJ in any way BUT being flat-out more powerful? Heck, in this series, when has "surpassed" or "exceeded" used as simply and unqualified as it's used to describe SSB compared to SSG ever meant anything other than all-around better?

As far as I'm aware the only issue with my reasoning so far is that I'm assuming Goku's battle power leveled out after his fight with Beerus. I don't inherently see anything wrong with this. Apart from the fact that you said my methodology isn't "future-proof". But why should it account for the possibilities of changes in the future?

Well, I think that when Toriyama's original intention was for Goku to already be halfway towards Beerus post-BoG, when the only reason for revising that in the anime is due to an inferred consequence of something that does not even exist in the other depiction of the same story when both of them stem from the same source, when a prominent figure from the anime staff says that the top dog short of Beerus himself is Goku Black, whom Goku is still able to keep up with in an equivalent form, that it's more indicative of where all the people telling this story imagine these characters being than said inferred consequence, especially because it's only inferred.

[Tectorman]

I just have a hard time following the logic of Two-Base Theory, is all.

I can't see any legitimate logic to it from an in-universe OR out-of-universe perspective. In-universe and out-of-universe, it seems to invalidate the thought process that Goku and Vegeta are legitimately getting stronger and stronger overall, and seems to invalidate the notion that their opponents are legitimately getting stronger and stronger overall.

If the average viewer couldn't come up with such a rationalization at first glance, why would a show producer or writer? Why come up with something as convoluted-sounding as a second base that is rooted in trying to universalize something in a setting that's very much relativistic?

That's another thing. Being a serialized animated project on a 6-week production schedule (previously 4-week, which did NOT do the show any wonders), I can understand where the inconsistencies come from, especially since producers don't think things through as in-depth as singular individuals like you or I can do so. The book analogy is inherently flawed because a book doesn't work like a T.V. show, which is an episode-by-episode production with a huge staff compared to a singular creation by one or two individuals.

===

However, to answer the question of base power, I'd say......... it varies. Depends on when fighting skill or power is made to be important, what roles each character plays in each scenario, etc.

By keeping things vague and focusing on the spectacle, the show creators avoid having to make hard decisions on these things. However, I'd say they've done enough to at least give us an idea of what the general ballpark is. That being that Goku and Vegeta's base power is within the upper tier of Buu Saga level, their SS power is above that tier, and they're at god-level using god-level forms, and NOTHING ELSE IN-BETWEEN.

Large text block ahead.

[spoiler]Out of universe, we know from watching the movies that post-BoG, Saiyan and Super Saiyan (rejiggered to SSB) were supposed to be it. The anime kept all of that as it when when they were doing those arcs (which is one of the reasons why these arcs, the most appropriate candidates for dialogue supporting the two-base theory, do not have said dialogue: going back to using the other SSJ forms was not yet a glimmer in anyone's eye).

Do we or do we not see Goku ceasing to be a SSG and continuing to fight Beerus at the same level he was before as a SSJ? He drops out of SSJ and struggles against that last energy orb as a Saiyan before finally defeating it and then losing the fight.

You want to talk about what the average viewer would see? Okay, the average viewer would see Episode 5 where SSJ2 was explicitly confirmed to be above SSJ and SSJ3 explicitly confirmed to be above SSJ2. The average viewer would later then wonder why Goku, having dropped down to SSJ which has somehow gotten so much stronger, wouldn't try going to SSJ2 or SSJ3 again. Those forms were stronger before; why not now? Or the average viewer would take what was shown as it is presented. Post-SSG, Goku's SSJ still has all that power. Given that his regular form managed to end that last energy orb, stated to be worse than a previously shown energy orb explicitly stated to be enough to end the universe, the average viewer would conclude that Goku's Saiyan form is also up there in power. All the way? No, but close.

This jives with the movies and additional interviews for the movies, where we're told that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are now supposed to be considered comparatively useless. But even without those other sources, the average viewer is easily currently at the impression "SSG = SSJ > Base (but still up there in its own right)".

Later but before the fight with Frieza, does the anime even remotely hint that anything has happened to what Goku had after the fight with Beerus? No. As far as the average viewer is concerned, things stayed the same. Vegeta trains under Whis and this is somehow sufficient to bring him up to and slightly past Goku's level, but Goku didn't go down, and SSJ2 and SSJ3 didn't reemerge as useful things.

Then the RoF arc of the anime happens. The only paradigm shift the average viewer is presented with is that Goku and Vegeta (both of whom have Base forms or Base-looking forms at the level where they could potentially negate a universe-destroying energy orb) now have a transformation above where they were before. It's SSB, and it's stronger than the SSG was (making it stronger than the SSG-equivalent SSJ that Goku had). Maybe it's replaced the SSG-equivalent SSJ that Goku had, maybe it's in addition to that; we don't know because aside from Gohan, I don't remember us seeing gold hair at all that arc.

That's just what the average viewer is presented with by the anime. That it still jives with the movies and with the RoF manga special is just further confirmation.

Then the U6 arc comes around. From Goku and Vegeta, we go from only seeing God-tier Base and SSB to seeing Base, SSJ, SSB, and SSBKK.

The average viewer, you'll remember, has already seen God-tier Base, SSG-equivalent SSJ (though it didn't show up in the RoF arc), and SSB (stronger than SSG and SSG-equivalent SSJ) before, so the average viewer would have no reason to doubt the continued existence of that paradigm. Hit's similar performances against every form of Goku from whatever-Base-he-has all the way to SSBKKx10 (especially when the anime went so far as to have him act like he was powering up just to say, no, he actually wasn't) only reinforces that what the average viewer had already seen in previous arcs is still here now. The average viewer is newly presented with the existence of Kaioken, but everything else stayed where it was.

Yes, the average viewer may be wondering what to make of the other participants in the tournament. But that's an easy hurdle. In the case of the U6 fighters, they can be at whatever power level the story needs them to be (and if not by power then by otherwise having techniques or abilities able to contend with whomever in U7 they go up against). They can have whatever convoluted or conveniently simple origin story necessary. As for our guys in U7, Buu never fights so it ends up being irrelevant how strong he is at this point, and Piccolo is confirmed to have only had a shot through strategy and/or his techniques. He doesn't stand a chance against God-tier characters in a straight up power struggle, but then, neither did Sorbet. But if Sorbet was able to fatally wound a SSB (in the movie) or a God-tier Saiyan (in the anime) through a sneak attack, then conceivably so can Piccolo. Indeed, that appears to be what he was trying to do, albeit non-fatally.

The average viewer may also be wondering what happened to all the universe-threatening explosions of which the BoG arc made such a big deal. Of course, he then remembers that it was explicitly pointed out that Goku and Beerus got even more intense after the point in the fight where they were making shockwaves without making additional shockwaves, so apparently that sort of thing is not necessarily a required by-product of fighting at that level. The average viewer can also remember that every time a universe-threatening shockwave or energy orb, it was Goku interacting with Beerus. Since Beerus was never involved in any further fights of that caliber, the average viewer can conclude that that must be more a Beerus-specific thing than just the natural consequences of any two random fighters at that tier fighting each other. Considering that Goku only ever demonstrated the newly acquired abilities of exactly countering Beerus's force and later stopping that last energy orb, it supports the idea that he cannot by himself create those universe-threatening effects.

Then the Copy arc rolls around. Now, remember that the average viewer at this point still has God-tier Base, SSG-equivalent SSJ, SSB, and SSBKK. After this arc, nothing occurs that changes this paradigm. At most, the average viewer may need to adjust his estimate of where Vegeta was during the U6 arc, as it is only in this arc that it's revealed that the two are even now, and therefore were not even then.

We're all the way up to the Zamasu arc, and to this point, what exactly has the average viewer seen that represents the writers of the anime clearly and unmistakably telling him that Goku's Base, while above Buu-tier perhaps, is certainly nowhere near God-tier? That there remain orders of magnitude of difference between his transformations (indeed, that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are even still bothered with)? Because as far as I've seen, the answer is zilch. The BoG arc of the anime, never mind the movies or extra interviews, establishes by itself the paradigm of God-tier Base (and other stuff above it). That never comes undone or even hinted that it's meant to be undone since.

So we get to the Zamasu arc. For the first time since Episode 5, we see Goku using SSJ2. The average viewer may ask where it lies on the scale and he'll probably put it between SSG-equivalent SSJ and SSB. Trunks being that strong is odd, but hey, if he's had enough time and training.... But wait, SSJ3 is also back. And it's a significant improvement over SSJ2? And SSB is way above it? And another fight with SSJ2 has that form being way above Base?

The average viewer, only watching the anime, completely independent of any other material, already knows that everything Goku and Vegeta have is God-tier. And since plenty of time has passed since Trunks was in the series, he can have experienced whatever he did to become as powerful as he seems to be when he reappears. So it's not a matter of it being inconceivable for Trunks to be substantially stronger.

The issue is that this arc is trying to reinforce the idea of there being significant differences between the transformations when, prior, God-tier Saiyan and SSG-equivalent SSJ were close, and everything else since either didn't dispute that paradigm or plainly confirmed it. That paradigm wastrue. The Zamasu arc, however, emphasizes there being clear and stark differences. This new paradigm is the case now, so it is true. So what does the average viewer do?

He asks himself if there's really an issue with both being true. Turns out, no. Oh, okay then. Easy-peasy. At most, it raises questions about how it all works together, but if that were evident and explained already, then the average viewer wouldn't need to ask the question, right? But when you've got two things vying for being true, and they both can actually be true except for where they conflict with parts that haven't been nailed down anyway, then why, oh why, would the average viewer go to thinking "Okay, let's start finding things that definitely happened to ignore outright"?

I mean, this goes (again) right back to basic math. When you're given "10 + X = 90", are you ever asked to "Solve for 10"? Of course not. "10" is not in doubt. "90" is not in doubt. Between something established (the "10") and something unestablished (the "X"), why would you ever think to question the established?[/spoiler]

TLDR: How would the average viewer come up with a two-base theory? Try "by following the story". That's all I was doing. I mean, what perspective did you think I was arguing from? You want "convoluted"? "Hey, everything you were watching up till now? Ignore what you were clearly and simply shown and instead look at it through skewed and squinty eyes like you should have already known you were supposed to be doing" is what "convoluted" means.

As for in-universe, if it were explained properly by the series itself, then there wouldn't be a two-base theory. There would either be "two-base confirmed fact" or a 100% lack of anything even suggesting it (you know, NOT what we do have). As the series hasn't done a good enough job in either direction, it falls to us to construct a coherent narrative to account for everything we saw then and see now. That's why it's still a theory.

It doesn't negate the idea of Goku and Vegeta getting stronger and stronger, as are their opponents. I still have that as a thing happening; I just have it down at the same fractional tiers that we saw back in the Saiyan Saga (when Vegeta was able to easily dominate even Kaiox2 Goku with a paltry 12.5% gap).

And no, any difference between the release schedule of a book series and a TV series is irrelevant. The story is the story, whether experienced as it's released, or all in one go right after the series has ended, or even years later. It always bears the responsibility of being coherent (and is therefore given the benefit of the doubt that it was coherent).

[Tectorman]

Anywhere from SSJ3 level - SSJG level,Toei just picks at random how strong Goku will be for the episode

Truth be told, this is probably the most accurate statement in this entire thread.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, he is not. Nothing was said about his power.

He's stated to be equal to Oob twice, so yes his power standing was stated.

If Gohan was Ultimate, he wouldn't become a Super Saiyan and get stronger. This means he is not Ultimate yet. But things will become more clear in the next episodes.

This isn't stated anywhere. He is stated and shown to be Ultimate during the exhibition match in promo material. He has the same traits that he possessed from BOG.

Only in filler, and it was a contradiction. Evil Boo, Piccolo Boo, Piccolo/Goten/Trunks Boo, S. Kaioshin Boo, Gotenks Boo, and Gohan Boo are all stronger than Pure Boo.

That is a non-argument. All you're saying is; "Pure Boo was officially stated to be the strongest but not in a media that I think counts in my personal opinion". Was it officially stated in the story's supplemental material? Yup, that's all that matters.

And it doesn't even work since Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest in the universe in the Daizenshuu, the strongest Boo in the Dragon Book, the strongest by Toriyama and the strongest by Kibitokai in the manga. I don't know how much more obvious it can be. The conclusions that people draw supposedly "proving" Super Boo>Pure Boo are irrelevant since they're wrong. It's as simple as that.

Pure Boo>Super Boo>Fat Boo. None of those absorbed forms of Boo are different Boos. They're just Super Boo. South Kai Boo is stated to be stronger than Pure Boo, yet he's irrelevant to the statement since South Kai Boo is just Pure Boo.

Yes it is stated. Zamasu wanted to use the Super Dragon Balls to steal Goku's body, but couldn't because Beerus had already used them back in the tournament and the SDBs had turned to stone for a year. So, he used the Time Ring instead of waiting for a year.

No, it's not stated that Black kept getting zenkais because he had Goku's body from a year in the future. That doesn't even make sense. Neither Goku or Vegeta can get zenkais anymore.

Trying to weasel out of something you are - for some curious reason - trying to comically spoonfeed me and others?
Your arbitrary rules like "if you don't find some information in the manga, look up in the anime, because they are meant to be one and the same" are an index of bias when they rely on your own personal feelings and you try to elevate them to rules for everyone. I guess you must believe that Gregory exists in the manga continuity, but that he's also conveniently hidden or off panel every time we are on King Kai's planet. Is somebody who thinks that Gregory does not exist in the manga continuity biased, according to you?

Uub being equal to a fully powered Base Goku is still as unsubstantiated as before, though. As something proving Kid Buu > Gotenks? Equally moot. I hope you can find some better argument along the way, but I guess you'll simply repeat your own policies and stances on the manga and the anime perfectly supplementing each other ad nauseam.

Is Oob stated to be equal to Goku? Yes he is, so your argument about Goku holding back against him is complete bias. No if ands or buts. Don't care about the rest of your nonsense.
Taking into account the manga and anime isn't a "stance". It's the default if you're following the story since both of them make up the series, so taking them both into account is just following the story. The moment you start claiming nonsense like; "It only happened in x media therefore it doesn't count", you're taking a stance and a retarded one at that.
They are both part of the series, so taking both into account is the default. You're allowed to remain a deluded moron if you want though with the "Only the manga counts, the anime is irrelevant" thing, but it's complete nonsense.

[Kaboom]

Is Oob stated to be equal to Goku? Yes he is, so your argument about Goku holding back against him is complete bias. No if ands or buts. Don't care about the rest of your nonsense.
Taking into account the manga and anime isn't a "stance". It's the default if you're following the story since both of them make up the series, so taking them both into account is just following the story. The moment you start claiming nonsense like; "It only happened in x media therefore it doesn't count", you're taking a stance and a retarded one at that.
They are both part of the series, so taking both into account is the default. You're allowed to remain a deluded moron if you want though with the "Only the manga counts, the anime is irrelevant" thing, but it's complete nonsense.

The dismissive and rude behavior you've projected since you started participating in this thread was already bad enough, but this is completely unacceptable. Your opinions on any given tired debate are not inherently fact, and your peers are not "deluded morons" for disagreeing with you. The same attitude problem is present in many of your other posts lately. Please put more thought and care into how you post.

[The gr]

As strong as the plot demands

[apex_pretador]

How strong is base Goku?

1. He fights final form freeza in base form, who manhandled Super Saiyan gohan in first form, and apparently gohan + fat buu could only hold him off in his first form (according to krillin)
2. Vegeta one-shots Tagoma who is above perfect cell level by scaling with piccolo
3. Goku fights almost evenly with assault form frost, who (after frost was tired) was stated to be more fair fight by piccolo (who trained for 8 months after RoF, with gohan)
4. Future trunks in base fights SS kid trunks off panel.
5. Copy vegeta manhandles SS3 Gotenks. Base goku matches him.
6. Base goku fights suppressed beerus to a good fight.
7. Apparently base vegeta blows up the rosat.
8. Goku (likely suppressed) spars with Gohan who was even with U6 arc piccolo at U6 tourney and is probably more powerful since then.
9. Goku spars (likely suppressed again) with Buu who has significantly improved due to training.

TLDR: Goku is quite a lot more powerful than fat buu, and in league with buutenks or above. Sometimes he is written as above buuhan, sometimes he is written as barely on SS3 goku (buu arc) level. However, the general power level of his base lies somewhere between them.

[LowRyder2005]

Is Oob stated to be equal to Goku? Yes he is, so your argument about Goku holding back against him is complete bias. No if ands or buts. Don't care about the rest of your nonsense.
Taking into account the manga and anime isn't a "stance". It's the default if you're following the story since both of them make up the series, so taking them both into account is just following the story. The moment you start claiming nonsense like; "It only happened in x media therefore it doesn't count", you're taking a stance and a retarded one at that.
They are both part of the series, so taking both into account is the default. You're allowed to remain a deluded moron if you want though with the "Only the manga counts, the anime is irrelevant" thing, but it's complete nonsense.

Got a good chuckle over this one.
However, you're exactly proving my point. I suggest you go and google what an argumentum ad lapidem is; in the end, you yourself have proven that your stance (because no matter how you try to artfully twist it, that's what it is) rests on the fact that you simply consider taking the manga and the anime as completely separate continuities "stupid", with no added logical assertion supporting your thesis other than a supposedly "intrinsic" stupidity, an idea which is completely a product of your personal feelings on the subject. About the gratuitous insults and you getting apparently quite flustered when confronted with this particular contention, I may just interpret them as a "touché".

On a side note, I suggest to do some work on your communication skills and try to get just a lil' bit of added open-mindness when confronting opinions. You do seem like someone who mainly posts to find validation through an aura of superiority, and your rather aggressive style of expressing personal ideas is quite off-putting. I'm pretty sure that whenever you'll re-read yourself in a few years you'll probably agree.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He's stated to be equal to Oob twice, so yes his power standing was stated.

All we know is that base Goku & Oob are equals. Other than that, we have no idea about how strong they are. Oob is not stated to be as strong as Pure Boo.

This isn't stated anywhere. He is stated and shown to be Ultimate during the exhibition match in promo material. He has the same traits that he possessed from BOG.

The promotional material are for the Tournament of Power, not for the Exhibition Match. If Gohan was Ultimate, he wouldn't turn Super Saiyan.

That is a non-argument. All you're saying is; "Pure Boo was officially stated to be the strongest but not in a media that I think counts in my personal opinion". Was it officially stated in the story's supplemental material? Yup, that's all that matters.

And it doesn't even work since Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest in the universe in the Daizenshuu, the strongest Boo in the Dragon Book, the strongest by Toriyama and the strongest by Kibitokai in the manga. I don't know how much more obvious it can be. The conclusions that people draw supposedly "proving" Super Boo>Pure Boo are irrelevant since they're wrong. It's as simple as that.

Pure Boo>Super Boo>Fat Boo. None of those absorbed forms of Boo are different Boos. They're just Super Boo. South Kai Boo is stated to be stronger than Pure Boo, yet he's irrelevant to the statement since South Kai Boo is just Pure Boo

Kibitoshin, never said Pure Boo was the strongest Boo. The manga never had anything showing Pure Boo was the strongest. Goku was scared to fight Evil Boo, Gotenks Boo, and Gohan Boo alone, and prefered to use the Potara to merge with Vegeta or Gohan in order to fight them, which was supposed to be permanent, but he was relieved when Boo transformed into Pure Boo.

And let's not forget about Fat Boo. Fat Boo was stronger than all SS2s, but weaker than SS3 Goku. However, SS Gotenks was stronger than Fat Boo as well, and SS3 Gotenks is x8 stronger than SS Gotenks. And you are saying that SS3 Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, but that's impossible. Goku was supressed against Fat Boo, and lied about being weaker than him, but according to you, SS3 Goku had supressed his power over x8... which means that SS3 Goku (suppressed) is weaker than SS2 Goku. Which is impossible, because everyone felt a power far greater than SS2 when he fought Fat Boo.

So, the anime & guidebooks that state Pure Boo is the strongest Boo create a huge plot-hole, which is why I ignore these contradicting statements.

No, it's not stated that Black kept getting zenkais because he had Goku's body from a year in the future. That doesn't even make sense. Neither Goku or Vegeta can get zenkais anymore.

Yes, it is. Goku had stopped getting near-death power-ups because he had trained to his limits. But after Black stole his body, he couldn't use the full extent of the body's power (like Ginyu), so in order to restore the body back to its original power, he used the near-death power-ups. The reason SSR Black is stronger than SSB Goku is because his body is from a year in the future.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku had stopped getting near-death power-ups because he had trained to his limits. But after Black stole his body, he couldn't use the full extent of the body's power (like Ginyu), so in order to restore the body back to its original power, he used the near-death power-ups. The reason SSR Black is stronger than SSB Goku is because his body is from a year in the future.

I missed that. So, by this logic Toyotaro's version of Base Goku in the future would be stronger than his current SS3?

[buutenks]

Anime: Id say around Buuhan/Buutenks atm based on showings, could be allot higher.
Manga:Havent read the last few chapters, so based on how far I've read, a bit stronger than buu saga base Goku i guess.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

All we know is that base Goku & Oob are equals. Other than that, we have no idea about how strong they are. Oob is not stated to be as strong as Pure Boo.

We know that Oob is as strong as Pure Boo since they're the same person. Pure Boo isn't weaker than Pure Boo.

The promotional material are for the Tournament of Power, not for the Exhibition Match. If Gohan was Ultimate, he wouldn't turn Super Saiyan.

According to who?
"The strong Gohan of old that once surpassed his father has returned!"

Present tense and the Gohan at the exhibition match being exactly the same as the one in the promo art confirms it anyway.

Kibitoshin, never said Pure Boo was the strongest Boo. The manga never had anything showing Pure Boo was the strongest. Goku was scared to fight Evil Boo, Gotenks Boo, and Gohan Boo alone, and prefered to use the Potara to merge with Vegeta or Gohan in order to fight them, which was supposed to be permanent, but he was relieved when Boo transformed into Pure Boo.

And let's not forget about Fat Boo. Fat Boo was stronger than all SS2s, but weaker than SS3 Goku. However, SS Gotenks was stronger than Fat Boo as well, and SS3 Gotenks is x8 stronger than SS Gotenks. And you are saying that SS3 Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, but that's impossible. Goku was supressed against Fat Boo, and lied about being weaker than him, but according to you, SS3 Goku had supressed his power over x8... which means that SS3 Goku (suppressed) is weaker than SS2 Goku. Which is impossible, because everyone felt a power far greater than SS2 when he fought Fat Boo.

So, the anime & guidebooks that state Pure Boo is the strongest Boo create a huge plot-hole, which is why I ignore these contradicting statements.

Yes, Kibitokai states that Pure Boo's heart lowers his power and Super Boo still possesses the heart gained by the Grand Kai.

SSJ Gotenks isn't stronger than Fat Boo. He was stated to be weaker than Vegeta prior to the Rosat. He's only labeled as "Majin Boo level" as an SSJ3, just like Goku.

The story and the guidebooks explaining the story aren't wrong, so the only thing wrong here is your interpretation. Every event you brought up is either inconclusive or simply being warped by your own interpretation.

The Daizenshuu labels Pure Boo as the strongest in the universe. Toriyama stated that Boo was the strongest in his final form(Pure Boo), the Dragon Book states that Pure Boo is the strongest Boo and Kibitokai states that the heart he gained by lowering his power is back to it's original state.

Yes, it is. Goku had stopped getting near-death power-ups because he had trained to his limits. But after Black stole his body, he couldn't use the full extent of the body's power (like Ginyu), so in order to restore the body back to its original power, he used the near-death power-ups. The reason SSR Black is stronger than SSB Goku is because his body is from a year in the future.

No it's not. The reason that Black keeps getting zenkais is never stated. He kept getting them even after mastering Goku's power. All you did was explain how he regained Goku's original power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku had stopped getting near-death power-ups because he had trained to his limits. But after Black stole his body, he couldn't use the full extent of the body's power (like Ginyu), so in order to restore the body back to its original power, he used the near-death power-ups. The reason SSR Black is stronger than SSB Goku is because his body is from a year in the future.

I missed that. So, by this logic Toyotaro's version of Base Goku in the future would be stronger than his current SS3?

Yes, but his SSGSS form didn't get the same amount of gains for some reason. Which is why there is a plot-hole, and why I believe Toriyama wrote the story drafts with Goku & Vegeta as Saiyans with SSG power, and without SS/2/3/God, only SSB.

We know that Oob is as strong as Pure Boo since they're the same person. Pure Boo isn't weaker than Pure Boo.

They are not exactly the same person, or Oob wouldn't be an Earthling. Oob is the reincarnation of Pure Boo, and he has inherited his power, but he can't access it yet because he has never trained before.

According to who?
"The strong Gohan of old that once surpassed his father has returned!"

Present tense and the Gohan at the exhibition match being exactly the same as the one in the promo art confirms it anyway.

The promotion was for the arc in general, not the specific episode that was airing. If he was Ultimate, he wouldn't turn into a Super Saiyan.

Yes, Kibitokai states that Pure Boo's heart lowers his power and Super Boo still possesses the heart gained by the Grand Kai.

Kibitoshin was talking specifically about Fat Boo. Evil Boo's power was still supressed from Dai Kaioshin, but he was stronger than Pure Boo, and weaker than S. Kaioshin Boo.

SSJ Gotenks isn't stronger than Fat Boo. He was stated to be weaker than Vegeta prior to the Rosat. He's only labeled as "Majin Boo level" as an SSJ3, just like Goku.

Piccolo was confident SS Gotenks could beat Fat Boo, which means he was stronger than supressed SS3 Goku.

Toriyama stated that Boo was the strongest in his final form(Pure Boo)

Could you post the exact statement?

No it's not. The reason that Black keeps getting zenkais is never stated. He kept getting them even after mastering Goku's power. All you did was explain how he regained Goku's original power.

Black explained this in the manga, not me. Check chapter 20.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

They are not exactly the same person, or Oob wouldn't be an Earthling. Oob is the reincarnation of Pure Boo, and he has inherited his power, but he can't access it yet because he has never trained before.

They're the same person. Oob is Pure Boo in human form. All Goku states is that he isn't used to using the power. Nothing indicates that Oob was weaker than Pure Boo.

The promotion was for the arc in general, not the specific episode that was airing. If he was Ultimate, he wouldn't turn into a Super Saiyan.

And? It still states that Ultimate Gohan has returned, not that he's returning this arc. He isn't regaining Ultimate from Piccolo's training. He bringing out more power than he had before. This is ignoring the fact the art for current Gohan and the one in the promo art are exactly the same.

Kibitoshin was talking specifically about Fat Boo. Evil Boo's power was still supressed from Dai Kaioshin, but he was stronger than Pure Boo, and weaker than S. Kaioshin Boo.

No, he's talking about every form of Boo that's not Pure Boo since Kibitokai stated that Pure Boo just now lost all of the heart that was lowering his power when he reverted.
Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest in countless sources. There isn't any need for me to keep listing them at this point. The story's supplementary material stating exactly what I'm saying reaffirms that my interpretation of the story is indeed the correct one.

Piccolo was confident SS Gotenks could beat Fat Boo, which means he was stronger than supressed SS3 Goku.

Wrong conclusion simply on the basis that Pre rosat Gotenks is officially stated to be weaker than Vegeta. I don't even know what you're talking about since SSJ Gotenks isn't stated anywhere to be stronger than Boo.

Could you post the exact statement?

I don't see why it's necessary when countless sources for the story already state what I'm saying verbatim, but ok.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[DBZGTKOSDH]

They're the same person. Oob is Pure Boo in human form. All Goku states is that he isn't used to using the power. Nothing indicates that Oob was weaker than Pure Boo.

Oob's power was slowly coming out during the fight. He may be able to come close to Boo if he gets angry enough, but he didn't display Boo-level power.

And? It still states that Ultimate Gohan has returned, not that he's returning this arc. He isn't regaining Ultimate from Piccolo's training. He bringing out more power than he had before. This is ignoring the fact the art for current Gohan and the one in the promo art are exactly the same.

What do you mean "And"? The whole point of Ultimate is to get rid of the transformations. The fact that he still has to become a Super Saiyan means that he hasn't become Ultimate yet, but he will become after his training with Piccolo.

No, he's talking about every form of Boo that's not Pure Boo since Kibitokai stated that Pure Boo just now lost all of the heart that was lowering his power when he reverted.

He is talking about how Dai Kaioshin made Boo weaker & more controlable, which is Fat Boo. When Fat Boo became Evil Boo, he became more evil than before, and grew more powerful because more of his dormant powers were released because of that, but he couldn't access all of his power yet and become as strong as S. Kaioshin Boo was. He did become even more powerful however after absorbing Gotenks & Gohan.

What you are saying is that Goku wanted to merge permanently with Gohan & Vegeta because... why the hell would he do that if it isn't because he has no other choice?

Pure Boo is stated to be the strongest in countless sources. There isn't any need for me to keep listing them at this point. The story's supplementary material stating exactly what I'm saying reaffirms that my interpretation of the story is indeed the correct one.

But you are using the supplementary material as a basis to ignore what the original manga says. The original manga doesn't show Pure Boo as the strongest, there are more than a couple more forms even stronger than that. I'm not against using supplementary material, but they shouldn't be used as the holy truth. They have been wrong before, and they are wrong again here. The original manga is above everything.

Wrong conclusion simply on the basis that Pre rosat Gotenks is officially stated to be weaker than Vegeta. I don't even know what you're talking about since SSJ Gotenks isn't stated anywhere to be stronger than Boo.

So you are telling me that after Piccolo saw how strong SS2 Vegeta, Fat Boo, and suppressed SS3 Goku are, when he saw SS Gotenks he thought that he was the strongest of them all, but instead he was actually the weakest? How does that make sense? Were Piccolo, Kuririn, and the rest brain-damaged to not tell the difference? Was Goku a complete idiot for believing SS Gotenks would be strong enough?

I don't see why it's necessary when countless sources for the story already state what I'm saying verbatim, but ok.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

This is the interviewer (a random guy) saying Pure Boo is the strongest, not Toriyama...

[Saturnine]

You're a terrible debater, supersaiyangodgogeta. Not only do you take certain statements as absolute law which makes you blind to them obviously being invalidated on screen (through DEEDS and SITUATIONS, not other statements), but you also make far-fetched assumptions like an untrained Uub already possessing the full power of Kid Buu. Ever heard of something called potential? What would the point be of Goku training Uub for literally years if all he could gain from it was to be able to fly and unleash his power at will, as opposed to anger? It's obvious that Uub had to realize his potential yet, and even then he could very likely grow stronger than Kid Buu was given enough time. All he could do was match Goku's base power, which if you believe Beerus's statement about him being able to defeat Freeza could be say, around 400-500 million by the EoZ (and that's generous).

[Hugo Boss]

Goku had stopped getting near-death power-ups because he had trained to his limits. But after Black stole his body, he couldn't use the full extent of the body's power (like Ginyu), so in order to restore the body back to its original power, he used the near-death power-ups. The reason SSR Black is stronger than SSB Goku is because his body is from a year in the future.

I missed that. So, by this logic Toyotaro's version of Base Goku in the future would be stronger than his current SS3?

Yes, but his SSGSS form didn't get the same amount of gains for some reason. Which is why there is a plot-hole, and why I believe Toriyama wrote the story drafts with Goku & Vegeta as Saiyans with SSG power, and without SS/2/3/God, only SSB.

Black didn't know the trick of switching between Super Saiyan God and Blue, so that could be an indication that the version of Blue/Rosé he had was still not quite at 100%, unlike Vegeta.

I don't see why it's necessary when countless sources for the story already state what I'm saying verbatim, but ok.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

This is the interviewer (a random guy) saying Pure Boo is the strongest, not Toriyama...

Technically, you are right. What Toriyama says ahead doesn't conflict directly with his observation. But he also doesn't confirm anything. The interviewer seems to be questioning the reason behind the cutest looking characters usually being the most powerful. He took the liberty to mention a few examples, but the answer he got was simply "I try not to follow the trend that the strongest always get bigger and bigger", which doesn't automatically mean he can't make the strongest taller or more muscular, if he wants so.

[Analytic]

As strong as the plot demands

This is kind of a meaningless statement, especially in the In-Universe Discussion section. Anything can be lazily chalked-up to "plot", but that offers no food for thought and diminishes any kind of discussion.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Black didn't know the trick of switching between Super Saiyan God and Blue, so that could be an indication that the version of Blue/Rosé he had was still not quite at 100%, unlike Vegeta.

SS Black was slightly stronger than SSB Vegeta before the last power-up, so SSR Black should have been hundreds of thousands of times stronger than SSB Vegeta. But we know he isn't, there is a less than x2 difference between them. The difference between SS Black & SSR Black, as well as base Black & SSR Black in the anime, fits with the difference between base/SS/SSG Goku (all 3 forms are more or less equals with SSG power) & SSB Goku from the movies.