How strong is Base Goku?

[The gr]

As strong as the plot demands

This is kind of a meaningless statement, especially in the In-Universe Discussion section. Anything can be lazily chalked-up to "plot", but that offers no food for thought and diminishes any kind of discussion.

Your right, then I said, if we're using the Anime rof, Base goku≥super Saiyan absorbed god essence≥ssg, but later on, it looks dbs later on contradict goku and Vegeta base form

If were using the manga,is say around 100,000,000 because This continuity goku never absorbed the god essence to his base form, and it explains how goku and vegeta can use ssg at their will

[ckal9]

From U6 onwards he is stronger than 100% Freezer was back on Namek but during RoF base Goku is above SSJ3 Gotenks, possibly even above Mystic Gohan.
Basically the theory is that Goku and Vegeta, in order to use their old SSJ forms again (possibly for training purposes because the Super Saiyan forms tire their bodies) trained in the RoSaT to only use their SSG power when transforming in SSB. It's possible that they also did it to get a stronger SSB form as a result. This is something the show left unexplained unless we want to believe Piccolo got extremely strong out of nowhere, that Cabba is stronger than Mystic Gohan was (highly unprobable considering Vegeta's earlier comments about Gohan having the most potential out of him and Goku) and Future Trunks also got that powerful in such a short time (he definitely got more powerful because of his fights with Black though). Also Goku had high expectations out of Buu, but it might be more because of his near-immortality than his power even though in a tournament like that power prevails because there were out of rings and killing wasn't allowed. We could also assume Final Form Freezer was holding back a lot when he was confronting Goku, but everything that happens in-universe confirms us Freezer wasn't holding back.
So, unless Goku can stack a 50x SSJ multiplier, a 100x SSJ2 multiplier and a 400x SSJ3 multiplier on top of his already Mystic Gohan-tier base, we must assume his base was nerfed after RoF. But that's still a debated topic and until the anime shows us exactly how strong Goku his in his base, we won't really know whether the two-base theory is true or not. The Tournament of Power will hopefully shed some light over this whole thing.

For a while now it has seemed to me that Goku and Vegeta have reverted back to their original base after the copy-Vegeta filler. It was not explained, but to me, it makes sense based on everything we have seen since.

(Post copy-Vegeta arc) I personally think that Goku and Vegeta only have 1 base, their normal pre-god ki base. They use their normal ki to achieve the regular super saiyan forms. They have dormant god ki they can activate to achieve SSB.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

From U6 onwards he is stronger than 100% Freezer was back on Namek but during RoF base Goku is above SSJ3 Gotenks, possibly even above Mystic Gohan.
Basically the theory is that Goku and Vegeta, in order to use their old SSJ forms again (possibly for training purposes because the Super Saiyan forms tire their bodies) trained in the RoSaT to only use their SSG power when transforming in SSB. It's possible that they also did it to get a stronger SSB form as a result. This is something the show left unexplained unless we want to believe Piccolo got extremely strong out of nowhere, that Cabba is stronger than Mystic Gohan was (highly unprobable considering Vegeta's earlier comments about Gohan having the most potential out of him and Goku) and Future Trunks also got that powerful in such a short time (he definitely got more powerful because of his fights with Black though). Also Goku had high expectations out of Buu, but it might be more because of his near-immortality than his power even though in a tournament like that power prevails because there were out of rings and killing wasn't allowed. We could also assume Final Form Freezer was holding back a lot when he was confronting Goku, but everything that happens in-universe confirms us Freezer wasn't holding back.
So, unless Goku can stack a 50x SSJ multiplier, a 100x SSJ2 multiplier and a 400x SSJ3 multiplier on top of his already Mystic Gohan-tier base, we must assume his base was nerfed after RoF. But that's still a debated topic and until the anime shows us exactly how strong Goku his in his base, we won't really know whether the two-base theory is true or not. The Tournament of Power will hopefully shed some light over this whole thing.

For a while now it has seemed to me that Goku and Vegeta have reverted back to their original base after the copy-Vegeta filler. It was not explained, but to me, it makes sense based on everything we have seen since.

(Post copy-Vegeta arc) I personally think that Goku and Vegeta only have 1 base, their normal pre-god ki base. They use their normal ki to achieve the regular super saiyan forms. They have dormant god ki they can activate to achieve SSB.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

I feel that it's a bit of a disservice to Goku and Vegeta's continued training to have reverted to a pre-godly base form. I'm all for not putting them at god level beyond using god forms, but one cannot simply ignore all the training and gains they've made.

Even reaching Buu's level in base form is an achievement, as the Saiyans had yet to surpass Freeza beforehand. It makes sense with everything that Goku and Vegeta have gone through up to this point, doesn't downplay how strong they really are, and also keeps god-level on a pedestal.

[ckal9]

From U6 onwards he is stronger than 100% Freezer was back on Namek but during RoF base Goku is above SSJ3 Gotenks, possibly even above Mystic Gohan.
Basically the theory is that Goku and Vegeta, in order to use their old SSJ forms again (possibly for training purposes because the Super Saiyan forms tire their bodies) trained in the RoSaT to only use their SSG power when transforming in SSB. It's possible that they also did it to get a stronger SSB form as a result. This is something the show left unexplained unless we want to believe Piccolo got extremely strong out of nowhere, that Cabba is stronger than Mystic Gohan was (highly unprobable considering Vegeta's earlier comments about Gohan having the most potential out of him and Goku) and Future Trunks also got that powerful in such a short time (he definitely got more powerful because of his fights with Black though). Also Goku had high expectations out of Buu, but it might be more because of his near-immortality than his power even though in a tournament like that power prevails because there were out of rings and killing wasn't allowed. We could also assume Final Form Freezer was holding back a lot when he was confronting Goku, but everything that happens in-universe confirms us Freezer wasn't holding back.
So, unless Goku can stack a 50x SSJ multiplier, a 100x SSJ2 multiplier and a 400x SSJ3 multiplier on top of his already Mystic Gohan-tier base, we must assume his base was nerfed after RoF. But that's still a debated topic and until the anime shows us exactly how strong Goku his in his base, we won't really know whether the two-base theory is true or not. The Tournament of Power will hopefully shed some light over this whole thing.

For a while now it has seemed to me that Goku and Vegeta have reverted back to their original base after the copy-Vegeta filler. It was not explained, but to me, it makes sense based on everything we have seen since.

(Post copy-Vegeta arc) I personally think that Goku and Vegeta only have 1 base, their normal pre-god ki base. They use their normal ki to achieve the regular super saiyan forms. They have dormant god ki they can activate to achieve SSB.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

I feel that it's a bit of a disservice to Goku and Vegeta's continued training to have reverted to a pre-godly base form. I'm all for not putting them at god level beyond using god forms, but one cannot simply ignore all the training and gains they've made.

Even reaching Buu's level in base form is an achievement, as the Saiyans had yet to surpass Freeza beforehand. It makes sense with everything that Goku and Vegeta have gone through up to this point, doesn't downplay how strong they really are, and also keeps god-level on a pedestal.

Right, I hear you, but having their base as non god-ki forms is the only thing that actually makes sense. Sure, their bases could have gotten far stronger, but they should be nowhere near the level of SSJ3 Gotenks at base IMO. Sure maybe SS1 or approaching SS2 level Buu saga at most. Again, this is only what makes sense to me based on their showings from U6 arc til now.

[OLKv3]

In the manga, Goku never absorbs the SSG power into his base. Ok fine. This makes the U6 arc more sensible in a power scaling sense

But in the Black arc, Base Black was as powerful as Base Goku was in the RoF movie and anime. He stomped a SSJ3 tier Trunks like nothing, multiple times. He was clearly god level, or close to it.
Yet...SSJ2 Vegeta was able to fight on par with him. How does this make sense if Goku and Vegeta aren't god level in their base forms?
Why was Black so strong in the first place? The Goku he bodyjacked didn't absorb the SSG power right? And if SSJ2 Vegeta is much stronger than an opponent that shits on a SSJ3 level opponent, why is SSG even needed? why not just go Blue?

The manga isn't much better with the power scaling. It was, until the Future Trunks arc, which just dumps on all kinds of logic

[Black Hawk]

In the manga, Goku never absorbs the SSG power into his base. Ok fine. This makes the U6 arc more sensible in a power scaling sense

But in the Black arc, Base Black was as powerful as Base Goku was in the RoF movie and anime. He stomped a SSJ3 tier Trunks like nothing, multiple times. He was clearly god level, or close to it.
Yet...SSJ2 Vegeta was able to fight on par with him. How does this make sense if Goku and Vegeta aren't god level in their base forms?
Why was Black so strong in the first place? The Goku he bodyjacked didn't absorb the SSG power right? And if SSJ2 Vegeta is much stronger than an opponent that shits on a SSJ3 level opponent, why is SSG even needed? why not just go Blue?

The manga isn't much better with the power scaling. It was, until the Future Trunks arc, which just dumps on all kinds of logic

It's speculated that Vegeta retained the "ORE NO BURUMA!!" boost/power-up thing, essentially giving him a SSJ2 form vastly above SSJ2 and SSJ3, hence the Turtle Hermit's statement that Vegeta has at last surpassed Gokū. That's the only way I can think of to rationalize Vegeta demolishing someone who can toy with a SSJ3-tier opponent.

As for Gokū not absorbing Red's power in his base in the manga, I personally believe that he did, as the battle with revived Freeza still had to take place afterword, and it would have to be completely rewritten in order to be consistent with the tournament between Universes Six and Seven if Gokū didn't absorb Red's power. I believe that, following the defeat of Golden Freeza, Gokū and Vegeta continuing to train together in the Blue form allowed them to reach some sort of ability to resume their previous base and Super Saiyajin forms, along with Red, as Red has been shown, post-Beerus, to have no drawbacks, so it may as well be the same as having their Red-powered bases, except now they can also utilize lower levels of power comparable to the Universe Six fighters so as to not one-shot everyone up until Hit's full power and make for a very boring story arc.

[Lord Beerus]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

It's instances like this in conjunction with other showings against strong opponents that makes me believe that the intention is that Goku and Vegeta are super-strong, just not up to god-level in non-god forms, in BOTH mediums.

Honestly, I'd place SS3 Goku from BoG as the "minimum" for how strong Goku and Vegeta are in base in both the manga and anime. Maybe a tad bit lower in the manga, but not hugely so.

[Tectorman]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

It's instances like this in conjunction with other showings against strong opponents that makes me believe that the intention is that Goku and Vegeta are super-strong, just not up to god-level in non-god forms, in BOTH mediums.

Honestly, I'd place SS3 Goku from BoG as the "minimum" for how strong Goku and Vegeta are in base in both the manga and anime. Maybe a tad bit lower in the manga, but not hugely so.

I don't think he's saying that they aren't super-strong, just that that scene shows very little difference between Base and SSB. As in, the scene is very reminiscent of another fight between Goku and Vegeta. Back in the Saiyan Saga, there's one point where Goku has already found out his Kaioken x2 isn't enough, and Vegeta goes on the offensive with a couple of energy blasts that he characterizes as "easy to dodge". Easy to dodge or not, Goku doesn't dodge the second one. And the gap between their powers was actually small (only 18,000 vs 16,000).

Also, we know from Goten's fight with Trunks in the Tournament in the Buu Saga that merely going up to SSJ when your opponent isn't expecting it is an increase in power more than sufficient to catch your opponent off-guard. And yet, Vegeta needed to go past SSJ-level, past SSJ2-level, past SSJ3 AND SSG up to SSB just to catch Goku off-guard?

On the other hand, if there's a SbG form above SSJ3 and below but still close to SSB and they were both SbG, then suddenly using SSB makes more sense, what with SSB being the only form left above where they were.

We see the same thing with Vegetto versus Merged Zamasu. Goku and Vegeta are both wore out and fuse into a weakened Base (-looking) Vegetto. Said weakened Vegetto then blasts off Zamasu's arm, then takes a senzu bean and goes to SSB.

Okay, why? If SbG is not a thing, then there is a significant gap between Base and SSJ, a significant gap between SSJ and SSJ2, SSJ2 and SSJ3, SSJ3 and SSG, and SSG and SSB. If Vegetto, while weakened, can blast off Zamasu's arm, then what does he need with a stamina-draining form like SSB when mere SSJ all by itself should be more than enough to deadlock Zamasu no matter what Zamasu tries for the hour it would take for Zamasu's fusion to come undone?

On the other hand, if Vegetto were already a SbG with only SSB left to go above that, then using SSB makes more sense.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It just seems so arbitrary. Like, how can we trust either medium if they can't even make the simple distinction? What is the point of the concept of SbG existing beyond Heroes if neither the anime nor manga draw any attention, narratively speaking, to this?

It just seems like SbG is a concept of convenience used to explain instances where the powerscaling doesn't seem to make sense. Yeah, those instances don't make sense at first glance, but isn't it more likely that the creators simply didn't bother going to great lengths to meticulously create scenarios where our heroes would have to carefully explain why they're going from one form to another instead of some other form to some other other form?

Has it ever occurred to people that the forms are used just because? Like, literally no reason beyond "I think I'll become stronger, I'll just use this form", and then BOOM, transform into a stronger form? It's Doylist reasoning, but Watsonian reasoning like SbG comes with its own sets of problems, like the fact that it doesn't fit the current narrative in any tangible ways.

[Tectorman]

Okay, never mind everything else for the moment. Why would I be applying out-of-universe reasoning to a question on this thread in this sub-forum? It's the "In-Universe Discussion" sub-forum, where topics are discussed from an in-universe perspective. I am posting here, participating in this discussion. Does that not inform you as to the relevance of out-of-universe reasoning?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, never mind everything else for the moment. Why would I be applying out-of-universe reasoning to a question on this thread in this sub-forum? It's the "In-Universe Discussion" sub-forum, where topics are discussed from an in-universe perspective. I am posting here, participating in this discussion. Does that not inform you as to the relevance of out-of-universe reasoning?

You're right, I forgot about that.

However, it's importance to the actual topic cannot be understated, for it explains where in-universe cannot. And really, isn't that the best way to argue? Use everything and anything? Are there any rules for not being able to use out-of-universe logic and evidence in this forum thread? If so, I'll drop it.

If not, my point stands.

[TheMikado]

It just seems so arbitrary. Like, how can we trust either medium if they can't even make the simple distinction? What is the point of the concept of SbG existing beyond Heroes if neither the anime nor manga draw any attention, narratively speaking, to this?

It just seems like SbG is a concept of convenience used to explain instances where the powerscaling doesn't seem to make sense. Yeah, those instances don't make sense at first glance, but isn't it more likely that the creators simply didn't bother going to great lengths to meticulously create scenarios where our heroes would have to carefully explain why they're going from one form to another instead of some other form to some other other form?

Has it ever occurred to people that the forms are used just because? Like, literally no reason beyond "I think I'll become stronger, I'll just use this form", and then BOOM, transform into a stronger form? It's Doylist reasoning, but Watsonian reasoning like SbG comes with its own sets of problems, like the fact that it doesn't fit the current narrative in any tangible ways.

The point has always been about progression. Goku uses Kaioken because he needs it to be stronger than Vegeta.
Goku uses SSJ over kaioken because its stronger than kaioken.
Gohan uses SSJ2 over SSJ1 because its stronger than SSJ1.

Etc, etc. Point is stronger forms were used and we had an idea of why they used them. They would pretty much only use the forms needed to defeat the enemy they are facing. Now we so them arbitrarily use it against anyone. So the question becomes are they using it because the NEED to like it was both in the entirety of Z and even up to the Champa arc which Goku transforms to different SSJ levels as needed. OR are they just making up stuff and making a general mess of the narrative. Like I said before, changing the rules in the middle of the game does no one any favors.

[Tectorman]

Okay, never mind everything else for the moment. Why would I be applying out-of-universe reasoning to a question on this thread in this sub-forum? It's the "In-Universe Discussion" sub-forum, where topics are discussed from an in-universe perspective. I am posting here, participating in this discussion. Does that not inform you as to the relevance of out-of-universe reasoning?

You're right, I forgot about that.

However, it's importance to the actual topic cannot be understated, for it explains where in-universe cannot. And really, isn't that the best way to argue? Use everything and anything? Are there any rules for not being able to use out-of-universe logic and evidence in this forum thread? If so, I'll drop it.

If not, my point stands.

Okay, so I remember earlier being advised to look at it on a case-by-case basis and take it all individually. Now, though, it's "everything and anything".



Uh-huh. Why do I get the feeling I need another Two-Base Theory?

No matter. The advice now is to consider anything and everything pertinent to the topic. Good. You will be pleased to know that that's what I had already been doing since the U6 arc.

What do the movies show? A God-tier Base. The anime and the manga? At times, a God-tier Base, barely below his highest form; at others, a Buu-tier Base, significantly below his highest form. The interviews for the movies? A clear intention on Toriyama's part that Goku only bother with Saiyan and SSJ, having retained all the power of SSG in those forms.

You really want to look at all the contributing factors and how they inform an in-universe theory? Okay, this is what that looks like. If we're saying that what was true is still true (and "anything and everything" says that oh, yes, we will be so saying), and if we're saying that what is true now is true alongside what was true ("anything and everything", again, says yes), then they must either be explicitly combined by the story itself or implicitly combined by the viewer's best understanding until such time as an explicit combination becomes available (and only if every effort to that effect proves impossible does the viewer resort to arbitrarily deciding what to ignore).

Since that hasn't proven impossible, "anything and everything" says the best in-universe answer is the two-base theory.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Yeah, I worded "anything and everything" wrongly. Again.

I need to work on that.

I "meant" when it comes to the production of Super itself. As in everything to do with the anime's production. I'll try harder next time.

So far, the creator intent and evidence seems to imply that, whilst strong, there isn't some "second higher level of base power" that can't be explained by the circumstances themselves. The intent/evidence as of BoG and possibly though also possibly not RoF had a god-level regular-forms Goku, but that seems to have quietly faded away in favour of a merely very strong regular-forms Goku to keep the power of SSB on a pedestal and allow for other characters to effectively do battle against their regular forms.

Any fights with opponents like Hit, Krillin, etc., are mostly purely martial arts and skill-based rather than power-based despite the differences in power. Hit was purely stronger at that point, but Goku used skill to counter him until he was sure he could do it consistently so that he could save energy for fighting as a SSB. Krillin was clearly inferior in power, and had to use disorientation and out-of-the-box thinking to try and ring-out Goku, and that was mostly the rules being his greatest advantage.

The above scenarios seem to have been produced to showcase character skill in combat, but have the benefit of taking place using tournament rules that get around the power gaps that exist.

[TheMikado]

but that seems to have quietly faded away in favour of a merely very strong regular-forms Goku to keep the power of SSB on a pedestal and allow for other characters to effectively do battle against their regular forms.

But that's what people have been saying, with one small caveat.
Many people also believe the anime is actually missing a full on form/transformation which sits between SSJ3 and SSB.
Anyway the general theory is that when Toriyama wrote the Champa arc, he did it with the intention of Goku/Vegeta's base where they were around the Buu saga and scaling up from there.
But because the outline was so barebones and Toei was so far into production they tried to quietly adjust midstream and hope no one notices.

Actually many have theorized that the scene in the Opener where Goku appears to get a "new form" is actually the fabled "2nd base/SSG form" making its appearance in the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

but that seems to have quietly faded away in favour of a merely very strong regular-forms Goku to keep the power of SSB on a pedestal and allow for other characters to effectively do battle against their regular forms.

But that's what people have been saying, with one small caveat.
Many people also believe the anime is actually missing a full on form/transformation which sits between SSJ3 and SSB.
Anyway the general theory is that when Toriyama wrote the Champa arc, he did it with the intention of Goku/Vegeta's base where they were around the Buu saga and scaling up from there.
But because the outline was so barebones and Toei was so far into production they tried to quietly adjust midstream and hope no one notices.

Actually many have theorized that the scene in the Opener where Goku appears to get a "new form" is actually the fabled "2nd base/SSG form" making its appearance in the anime.

I'd actually be okay with that last one......... IF they make it clear that it has never been the case beforehand. Just to stick it to Two-Base Theory believers

[Tectorman]

Yeah, I worded "anything and everything" wrongly. Again.

I need to work on that.

I "meant" when it comes to the production of Super itself. As in everything to do with the anime's production. I'll try harder next time.

So far, the creator intent and evidence seems to imply that, whilst strong, there isn't some "second higher level of base power" that can't be explained by the circumstances themselves. The intent/evidence as of BoG and possibly though also possibly not RoF had a god-level regular-forms Goku, but that seems to have quietly faded away in favour of a merely very strong regular-forms Goku to keep the power of SSB on a pedestal and allow for other characters to effectively do battle against their regular forms.

Any fights with opponents like Hit, Krillin, etc., are mostly purely martial arts and skill-based rather than power-based despite the differences in power. Hit was purely stronger at that point, but Goku used skill to counter him until he was sure he could do it consistently so that he could save energy for fighting as a SSB. Krillin was clearly inferior in power, and had to use disorientation and out-of-the-box thinking to try and ring-out Goku, and that was mostly the rules being his greatest advantage.

The above scenarios seem to have been produced to showcase character skill in combat, but have the benefit of taking place using tournament rules that get around the power gaps that exist.

So you acknowledge that God-tier Base was a confirmed thing in BoG? Good, finally, some progress. Then you don't, in fact, dispute the two-base theory. All it says is that, instead of it not being shown in the series due to it not existing (i.e., a quiet retcon), it isn't shown in the series due to an in-universe reason why it was less suitable for whatever scenario you care to name. That's it. The theory exists because its supporters find it justifiable for a story element to no longer see the light of day because of an in-universe reason for other options (the lesser forms) to be exercised instead, even if that reason is not elucidated. Its supporters find it unjustifiable, however, for a story element to spontaneously be considered to not exist or to never have existed without an elucidated reason.

For example, Goku hasn't been explicitly observed to have used the Janken Fist since early Dragonball. You're never going to convince me he doesn't still have it, though you could convince me of any number of reasons why he doesn't still call it out when/if he uses it.

Why? Why is a quiet retcon so unjustifiable? Because that is not how you tell a story. It just isn't. I mean, for crying out loud, even Superboy-Prime had the courtesy to punch reality first before DC did one of their many, many franchise-wide retcons. So no. Under no circumstances is a quiet retcon going to fly. Especially when it's so disputable that it's even happened, what with how little consistency they seem to care for.

For example, the most recent episode where we find out that, despite all his efforts, Gohan had not yet, in fact, topped his old Buu Saga Mystic power. Not too long ago, Goku was sparring evenly with him as a SSJ and testing a much improved Slim Buu in Base. Doesn't a theory that allows for variation fit what we're shown with regards to that lack of consistency better than "No, we can only be seeing one specific thing, even if we have to ignore things to fit that specific agenda"?

but that seems to have quietly faded away in favour of a merely very strong regular-forms Goku to keep the power of SSB on a pedestal and allow for other characters to effectively do battle against their regular forms.

But that's what people have been saying, with one small caveat.
Many people also believe the anime is actually missing a full on form/transformation which sits between SSJ3 and SSB.
Anyway the general theory is that when Toriyama wrote the Champa arc, he did it with the intention of Goku/Vegeta's base where they were around the Buu saga and scaling up from there.
But because the outline was so barebones and Toei was so far into production they tried to quietly adjust midstream and hope no one notices.

Actually many have theorized that the scene in the Opener where Goku appears to get a "new form" is actually the fabled "2nd base/SSG form" making its appearance in the anime.

I'd actually be okay with that last one......... IF they make it clear that it has never been the case beforehand. Just to stick it to Two-Base Theory believers

"Yes, that'll teach people to follow a story and pay attention. Then they'll learn how to truly watch the show, by letting the light and sound wash over them without internalizing any of it."

[Lord Beerus]

This was very recently posted in the Super Power Levels thread:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

[ekrolo2]

This was very recently posted in the Super Power Levels thread:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Can't believe something like this was posted in the forum in the past and ignored. This resolves 95% of the power scaling issues in Super. The two base theory is now a thing. I just wish the anime or the manga could have spared some time to explain this.

This still doesn't solve my problem with the scaling, how characters can jerk themselves off-screen and gain massive strength gains that completely undermine anything Goku & Vegeta do ON-screen.