How strong is Base Goku?

[Tectorman]

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

What was the issue with them still having the regular SSJ forms before? As of the BoG movie and later RoF, the understanding was that they had become comparatively useless next to the SbG and SSbG (and later SSGSS), not non-existent. Their use of those lesser forms anyway just established that Goku and Vegeta could and would still fight using their lesser forms.

The "issue" with them having the regular Ssj forms as that people were saying it was proof that they could turn on and off god ki in general, and thus they should have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. What I'm saying is that, if Ssj Blue is an actual new Ssj form and not simply Super Saiyan with god ki (as most seem to say), then that'd explain how they have the ability to transform to their regular Ssj forms as well as Blue, but not have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. That it's literally only Ssj Blue that gives them access to god ki.

Well, of course that's what people would be saying, because that holds with what was established in the movies and the earlier arcs of the series. Nothing got changed; Goku did indeed fight Beerus in his lesser forms as well as he had with SSG. God Ki (or at least its power if not its nature) outside of the god forms.

It's just like how Frieza's 1.3 million line general gets dismissed because there's too much else in the series that that line doesn't hold with.

Or how the idea of SSJ being 50x Base survived even the Kiri measurements shown on-screen (Yakon and therefore approximately Goku being 800, SSJ Goku being 3000). One of the better explanations I've seen for that says that the Kiri scale is nonlinear. And whoever came up with that explanation did so so as to not violate the previously established paradigm of "SSJ>Kaiokenx10". If Goku really were going from 800 to 3000 with SSJ, then he'd be much better off using Kaiokenx10 (8000). So instead, the Kiri scale isn't linear, so as to not throw out what had previously been established.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Goku and Vegeta don't fight much in their base forms and didn't the power get absorbed into their bodies? The series already shows they can use god ki as often as an on and off switch since they are seen multiple times in regular ssj then going ssb. Why wouldn't they be able to use it in base form? IMO their training with Whis hasn't really shown its accomplishments since almost every major opponent they faced was stronger than them. So that gives reason why they should be able to use god ki in base form.And how about that time Goku fought Beerus in base form in Super.Do you really think training alone keeps him on par with Beerus?

The only time he fought against Beerus, Beerus was forcibly restraining himself to keep from tearing the suit apart he was in, thus not putting anywhere near as much power into the fight as he could.

As for the use of both Ssj and Ssj Blue, refer to what I said below.

In Battle of Gods, Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form (Vegeta did the same between BoG & FnF). Whether he had godly ki or not wasn't made clear, but what was made clear that he was almost as strong as SSG in his base form, and transforming further into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God was useless. By the time of Resurrection "F", Goku's regular Super Saiyan had evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, which was an upgraded version of his regular Super Saiyan and not a form beyond Super Saiyan.

The thing is though, the way it's worded in Super leaves it open that it is a form beyond Super Saiyan, not an upgraded form of the regular Ssj form. When he describes it to Freeza, he says it's a form that is " a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan." While a lot take it as him saying that it's the Saiyan that has the power of Ssj God, it could be taken as him saying that it's the Super Saiyan with the power of Ssj God, and thus he's saying it's a Super Saiyan form with the power of Ssj God. This would therefore support why Vegeta refers to it multiple times as the "latest form" as if it's something brand new and not just the same old Ssj form with a different ki type being used.

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

I don't think i understand what you are saying. Goku says Ssb is Ssj with god ki.

Going by the theory that Goku has a normal ki and a god ki state, normal ki base shouldn't be too far beyond pre-BoG base Goku while god ki base is likely at Buuhan to Super Vegito levels.

This is basically what i'm trying to say. For Goku and Vegeta to accomplish the feats they did in base form they have to be using god ki in their base at some points in the series.

[ChiefWamsutta]

What was the issue with them still having the regular SSJ forms before? As of the BoG movie and later RoF, the understanding was that they had become comparatively useless next to the SbG and SSbG (and later SSGSS), not non-existent. Their use of those lesser forms anyway just established that Goku and Vegeta could and would still fight using their lesser forms.

The "issue" with them having the regular Ssj forms as that people were saying it was proof that they could turn on and off god ki in general, and thus they should have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. What I'm saying is that, if Ssj Blue is an actual new Ssj form and not simply Super Saiyan with god ki (as most seem to say), then that'd explain how they have the ability to transform to their regular Ssj forms as well as Blue, but not have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. That it's literally only Ssj Blue that gives them access to god ki.

Goku's Base form absorbed the power of his SSJG form in early DBS.
SSJB is the only form that uses God Ki.
The other forms are far more powerful than they used to be. Base Goku would crap on anyone from DBZ.

However, none of Goku's forms are powerful enough to be greater than SSGod, except for SSBlue. Base/SS1/SS2/SS3 are all above SS3 Gotenks but below SSGod.

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

I don't think i understand what you are saying. Goku says Ssb is Ssj with god ki.

Darkprince410 is saying that ***ORIGINALLY IN THE ROF MOVIE ERA*** SSBlue was treated as Super Saiyan 1 with God Ki; however, more recently it has been treated like a Super Saiyan 4 instead (BASE/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSB).

Think about it ... it is very odd that we have never seen Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan Blue 3. If Goku could easily channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 1 form, then why couldn't he do it with SS2 and SS3? Instead of using a life-risking attack like Kaioken x10, why didn't he channel god ki into his Super Saiyan 3 form? That is an 8x boost and much safer than almost dying fighting Hit. If Goku and Vegeta were in such a bind against Goku Black, why not just transform into Super Saiyan Blue 2? That would give them the edge when they needed it. He would have two more transformations in his bag of tricks to use, but Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 with god ki is never discussed. Additionally, this "Saiyan Beyond God" can't exist for the sole reason that Base + God Ki was never mentioned in the show.

If Goku can use: SS1 + God Ki, then why doesn't he use Base + God Ki, SS2 + God Ki, or SS3 + God Ki? And, no, there is no place where Goku uses Base + God Ki in the show, as no Z Fighter comments on something like that. I have checked DBSuper with reputable subtitles many times for a Base + God Ki. It just is not there, and, sadly, this forces us into a bind.

We can alleviate this issue by looking at Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue differently. We need to treat them as Super Saiyan 3.5 and Super Saiyan 4. We have the usual Base, SS1, SS2, and SS3. SSGod was a hurdle form used to access SSBlue, which is why I say it's SS3.5. SSBlue can be seen as the new DBGT SS4, in a sense, as that is what they use as their strongest transformation and not a hypothetical SSB2/SSB3.

Going by the theory that Goku has a normal ki and a god ki state, normal ki base shouldn't be too far beyond pre-BoG base Goku while god ki base is likely at Buuhan to Super Vegito levels.

This is basically what i'm trying to say. For Goku and Vegeta to accomplish the feats they did in base form they have to be using god ki in their base at some points in the series.

But the thing is ... based on how Goku got Saiyan Beyond God from SSGod absorption, then Vegeta should not have a Saiyan Beyond God form. He ONLY trained with Whis, and achieved SSBlue. He did not access the power of SSGod.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The thing is though, the way it's worded in Super leaves it open that it is a form beyond Super Saiyan, not an upgraded form of the regular Ssj form. When he describes it to Freeza, he says it's a form that is " a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan." While a lot take it as him saying that it's the Saiyan that has the power of Ssj God, it could be taken as him saying that it's the Super Saiyan with the power of Ssj God, and thus he's saying it's a Super Saiyan form with the power of Ssj God. This would therefore support why Vegeta refers to it multiple times as the "latest form" as if it's something brand new and not just the same old Ssj form with a different ki type being used.

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

Of course it isn't just regular Super Saiyan. Like Goku said, it is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. In his base form, Goku is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, ever since Battle of Gods. This is what his Super Saiyan form looks like after training, while back in BoG, his Super Saiyan form was still gold with no power boost. Vegeta even calls it the "legendary Super Saiyan" form. It is true that the Super anime changed Vegeta's line though, and he calls it a form beyond Super Saiyan in the same scene, but this is a change made by Toei with the return of regular Super Saiyan in their mind. By the time Toriyama was writting FnF, Goku's & Vegeta's only forms were base (with SSG power) & Super Saiyan (Blue). It didn't even have a new name in-universe, the only name we had was "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" which was only used in merchandise & video-games.

And also, you didn't answer my questions:

So, why would Vegeta use his most powerful form (which has many drawbacks on top of that) against base Goku in a sparring match? If Black is slowly drawing out the power Goku had before they switched bodies, how does Black being vastly stronger than Goku was make sense? Why did Black's SS become SSR?

[GigaDrill]

Going by the theory that Goku has a normal ki and a god ki state, normal ki base shouldn't be too far beyond pre-BoG base Goku while god ki base is likely at Buuhan to Super Vegito levels.

This is basically what i'm trying to say. For Goku and Vegeta to accomplish the feats they did in base form they have to be using god ki in their base at some points in the series.

But the thing is ... based on how Goku got Saiyan Beyond God from SSGod absorption, then Vegeta should not have a Saiyan Beyond God form. He ONLY trained with Whis, and achieved SSBlue. He did not access the power of SSGod.

Vegeta was still a participant in the ritual; maybe that could have somehow unlocked a way for him to obtain god ki
It might just be a plot hole, but that would be far too lazy of a conclusion to make immediately

[ChiefWamsutta]

This is basically what i'm trying to say. For Goku and Vegeta to accomplish the feats they did in base form they have to be using god ki in their base at some points in the series.

But the thing is ... based on how Goku got Saiyan Beyond God from SSGod absorption, then Vegeta should not have a Saiyan Beyond God form. He ONLY trained with Whis, and achieved SSBlue. He did not access the power of SSGod.

Vegeta was still a participant in the ritual; maybe that could have somehow unlocked a way for him to obtain god ki
It might just be a plot hole, but that would be far too lazy of a conclusion to make immediately

It makes more sense to me to treat SSBlue as a new form entirely that Goku and Vegeta achieved during the time in Whis' Staff versus just accessing god ki in SS1. Recently, SSBlue has been treated as such. I made a post above about this.

[Darkprince410]

I don't think i understand what you are saying. Goku says Ssb is Ssj with god ki.

What I'm saying is that he didn't say it was literally Ssj with the power of Ssj God, but an Ssj form with the power of Ssj God. On more than one occasion, the term "Super Saiyan" has been used as a catch-all to describe all the transformations, such as Whis calling Goku's Ssj2 form (when first sparring with Zamasu) as Super Saiyan. It'd be like calling a Volkswagon Beetle and a Chevy Camaro a "car". As such, what I'm saying is that Goku wasn't saying that it is literally the first Ssj form combined with Ssj God, but rather that it is a new Ssj form that it giving them the power of Ssj God.

This is basically what i'm trying to say. For Goku and Vegeta to accomplish the feats they did in base form they have to be using god ki in their base at some points in the series.

Except there are no feats they've accomplished that would require them to be using god ki. If you bump up where fighters like Cabba and Frost are strength wise, then there's no feats that transpire that would require the use of godly ki in the base form. If Goku and Vegeta simply got considerably more powerful in general (and not having anything to do with god ki in their base forms) then it'd allow for everything we saw in Super to transpire just fine.

Of course it isn't just regular Super Saiyan. Like Goku said, it is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. In his base form, Goku is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, ever since Battle of Gods. This is what his Super Saiyan form looks like after training, while back in BoG, his Super Saiyan form was still gold with no power boost. Vegeta even calls it the "legendary Super Saiyan" form. It is true that the Super anime changed Vegeta's line though, and he calls it a form beyond Super Saiyan in the same scene, but this is a change made by Toei with the return of regular Super Saiyan in their mind. By the time Toriyama was writting FnF, Goku's & Vegeta's only forms were base (with SSG power) & Super Saiyan (Blue). It didn't even have a new name in-universe, the only name we had was "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" which was only used in merchandise & video-games.

What I'm saying though is that it isn't the Ssj form of a Saiyan with the power of Ssj God (or in simpler terms, Ssj + Ssj God), but that it it is an Ssj form with the power of Ssj god itself. The Saiyan himself doesn't have the power of Ssj God, but in transforming to that particular form he does, an evolutionary advancement along the Ssj line that gives them access to god ki, rather than them always having access to god ki and that being the Ssj form they'd take when expressing god ki.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Saiyan himself doesn't have the power of Ssj God, but in transforming to that particular form he does, an evolutionary advancement along the Ssj line that gives them access to god ki, rather than them always having access to god ki and that being the Ssj form they'd take when expressing god ki.

But we know he has the power of Super Saiyan God before the transformation.

[ZombieVito]

Normal base: On par with Piccolo.
Saiyan beyond God: A few tiers below Blue.

[ChiefWamsutta]

The Saiyan himself doesn't have the power of Ssj God, but in transforming to that particular form he does, an evolutionary advancement along the Ssj line that gives them access to god ki, rather than them always having access to god ki and that being the Ssj form they'd take when expressing god ki.

But we know he has the power of Super Saiyan God before the transformation.

That has changed. The belief that he is at SSG level in Base really only applies to past episodes. That isn't the case anymore.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Saiyan himself doesn't have the power of Ssj God, but in transforming to that particular form he does, an evolutionary advancement along the Ssj line that gives them access to god ki, rather than them always having access to god ki and that being the Ssj form they'd take when expressing god ki.

But we know he has the power of Super Saiyan God before the transformation.

That has changed. The belief that he is at SSG level in Base really only applies to past episodes. That isn't the case anymore.

That's my point. Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG in their base forms & they've now stopped using it (it was only used in the Copy-Vegeta arc so far after FnF), while Black was still using it. This is what has changed since FnF.

[ChiefWamsutta]

But we know he has the power of Super Saiyan God before the transformation.

That has changed. The belief that he is at SSG level in Base really only applies to past episodes. That isn't the case anymore.

That's my point. Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG in their base forms & they've now stopped using it (it was only used in the Copy-Vegeta arc so far after FnF), while Black was still using it. This is what has changed since FnF.

I personally disagree with the whole Godly Bases that were used. We just never even got an explanation why they stopped using it.

[ZombieVito]

But we know he has the power of Super Saiyan God before the transformation.

That has changed. The belief that he is at SSG level in Base really only applies to past episodes. That isn't the case anymore.

That's my point. Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG in their base forms & they've now stopped using it (it was only used in the Copy-Vegeta arc so far after FnF), while Black was still using it. This is what has changed since FnF.

Black being a Saiyan beyond God explains nicely how he managed to even hit SSB Vegeta in episode 57.

[ChiefWamsutta]

That has changed. The belief that he is at SSG level in Base really only applies to past episodes. That isn't the case anymore.

That's my point. Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG in their base forms & they've now stopped using it (it was only used in the Copy-Vegeta arc so far after FnF), while Black was still using it. This is what has changed since FnF.

Black being a Saiyan beyond God explains nicely how he managed to even hit SSB Vegeta in episode 57.

But where would Vegeta and Goku's Saiyan Beyond God bases even go? They stopped using them.

[ZombieVito]

That's my point. Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG in their base forms & they've now stopped using it (it was only used in the Copy-Vegeta arc so far after FnF), while Black was still using it. This is what has changed since FnF.

Black being a Saiyan beyond God explains nicely how he managed to even hit SSB Vegeta in episode 57.

But where would Vegeta and Goku's Saiyan Beyond God bases even go? They stopped using them.

You answered your own question.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Black being a Saiyan beyond God explains nicely how he managed to even hit SSB Vegeta in episode 57.

But where would Vegeta and Goku's Saiyan Beyond God bases even go? They stopped using them.

You answered your own question.

Whis, a proponent of the truth, has never stated anything about Saiyan Beyond God being a form they use, and one could easily argue that Base Black was strong from the obvious zenkais he was getting.

I'd make a bet that we will soon see Goku using Super Saiyan God again. If that happens, the Saiyan Beyond God idea can't work out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Whis, a proponent of the truth, has never stated anything about Saiyan Beyond God being a form they use, and one could easily argue that Base Black was strong from the obvious zenkais he was getting.

In the manga, it was explained that Black was drawing out the power Goku had before the body switch through the near-death power-ups, because when they switched bodies Black didn't have access to Goku's true power and couldn't even turn into a Super Saiyan (like Ginyu back on Freeza arc). After he fully drew out Goku's dormant powers, his Super Saiyan form changed into Super Saiyan Rosé (his version of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which is pink instead of blue because of his godly soul), just like Goku's Super Saiyan form changed into Super Saiyan Blue after he absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God & trained to surpass it.

I'd make a bet that we will soon see Goku using Super Saiyan God again. If that happens, the Saiyan Beyond God idea can't work out.

You mean in the anime? Why would they use Super Saiyan God again, Super Saiyan Blue has no drawbacks there. And even if this would happen... so what? Goku & Vegeta still use Super Saiyan God in the manga, but that doesn't mean they can use its power in their base forms alternatively. Black is apparently doing it in the manga, while they don't.

[ryan s]

Saiyan beyond God isn't a thing, black could be sensed while fighting SSJ2 Goku by everyone and SSJ2 Goku would be 2x stronger than SSG

[Tectorman]

That has changed. The belief that he is at SSG level in Base really only applies to past episodes. That isn't the case anymore.

That's my point. Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG in their base forms & they've now stopped using it (it was only used in the Copy-Vegeta arc so far after FnF), while Black was still using it. This is what has changed since FnF.

I personally disagree with the whole Godly Bases that were used. We just never even got an explanation why they stopped using it.

I reiterate my observation that RoF establishes that fighting suppressed imposes some manner of energy drain. So when Goku needs to fight at the power of his normal SSJ, he has two options: SbG suppressed to the level of his SSJ (which imposes the afore-mentioned energy drain), or SSJ (which doesn't). If he needs to fight at the level of a SSJ3, he has the same options: SbG suppressed to SSJ3 levels (still the energy drain established by RoF), or SSJ3 (which has its own energy drain).

Now, it's never established how much of an energy drain fighting suppressed is (beyond the fact that doing it for a while against dozens of weaker opponents made the Z Fighters want Senzu beans), or even how it compares to the energy drains of SSJ2 and SSJ3. On the other hand, one can easily take Goku and Vegeta's preferance of using the lesser forms over using suppressed SbG AS the statement of how the two compare. I.e.:

Goku can achieve the same levels of power two ways.

SbG suppressed to Saiyan levels>SbG suppressed to SSJ>SbG suppressed to SSJ2>SbG suppressed to SSJ3>SbG unsuppressed>SSB

OR

Saiyan unsuppressed (no God Ki)>SSJ unsuppressed (no God Ki)>SSJ2 unsuppressed (no God Ki)>SSJ3 unsuppressed (no God Ki)> SbG unsuppressed> SSB unsuppressed

Through both methods, he arrives at the same levels of power. But the latter method has less energy drain (apparently, due to the fact that he uses it instead).

[Tectorman]

Saiyan beyond God isn't a thing, black could be sensed while fighting SSJ2 Goku by everyone and SSJ2 Goku would be 2x stronger than SSG

The last part of Goku's fight with Beerus (where he was fighting as a "Super Saiyan Beyond God", but still at SSJG levels of power, and where his power COULD be sensed) shows, at least to me, that there's a difference between God Ki power and God Ki nature. Nothing but SSB has both; it has all the power and its energy cannot be sensed by non-deities. "SSbG" (while it was being used, and by inference, SbG) still has God Ki power but not God Ki nature, so the fact that their power can still be sensed in apparent Base is a non-issue.

As for the forms stacking, I took it as a matter of conflicting masteries. Goku can start with SSJ and, having mastered it, unlock the higher forms. Or he can start by using God Ki and apply, at most, SSJ on top. It becomes a matter of juggling too many things at once. Goku has somewhat mastered both paths by themselves, but his ability to combine the two is more limited. Or at least, so far; later, we may see a "SSB2".