How strong is Base Goku?

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:06 pm

There's no filler in Super.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ryan s » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:53 pm

Like he said above and this two Base theory is silly and does not even need to exist, the logic is also inconsistent with it.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:31 pm

emperior wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
emperior wrote:I have a theory which I already posted in the Super power levels thread: Goku and Vegeta lose their SSG powered base once they turn SSB for the first time, and their bases revert to what they were once (but more powerful because they trained with Whis)
This doesn't work because of this:

[spoiler]Image

And later on this:

Image[/spoiler]
Considering that fight was from a filler arc not written by Toriyama, I'm not going to consider it.
It's not a filler arc. Goku referenced fighting Copy-Vegeta in the Future Trunks arc. You can't just ignore a key fight because it doesn't fit your model.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:22 pm

ryan s wrote:in the anime Goku's increases are stated to be the same from SSJ2 to 3
But not when he is using the power of Super Saiyan God. Why didn't Goku go Super Saiyan 2 & 3 against Beerus? Because it wouldn't make a difference.
emperior wrote:I have a theory which I already posted in the Super power levels thread: Goku and Vegeta lose their SSG powered base once they turn SSB for the first time, and their bases revert to what they were once (but more powerful because they trained with Whis)
Goku still had the power of Super Saiyan God in FnF, or he wouldn't be able to fight Final Form Freeza. The FnF manga, which was overseen & approved by Toriyama like the Super manga, also made it clear that Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ryan s » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:29 pm

Because it's a plot hole like many other things in Super, and he doesn't use the power of SSG as he can be sensed and he would turn SSB which debunks this whole thing

"This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."! which is what you exactly are stating yet he never mutated into this form

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:04 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
Tectorman wrote:
ryan s wrote:I am sorry but this is getting ridiculous, the theory is getting more stupid and unrealistic as more evidence debunks it, it can't be held Goku was a SSJ with regular ki when fighting Beerus and was at the level of SSG
Oh, I'll agree that there are parts where a two-base theorist may have to come up with increasing complicated explanations to keep everything on track. But like I said in the other thread, not subscribing to the two-base theory is also debunked by the twin examples of the Hit fight and the Zamasu fight. IMO, a complicated (even an over-complicated) theory that works is preferable to throwing one's hands in the air.
I'm curious as to what you mean by this.
Sure.

During Goku's fight with Hit, Hit improves his Time Skip, but otherwise stays the same. Same strength, same speed, same durability, same power. He starts the fight with his best techniques hampered by the tournament rules and that hindrance remains in effect all the way through. He even acts like he's powering up at one point, just to turn around and confirm that, no, he's not powering up at all.

So when Goku fights him in Base (or something that looks like Base), his performance is a fixed value. Later, when Goku fights as a SSB, Hit (who has not powered up or done anything to suggest now being in possession of increased durability) withstands Goku about the same as he did. Ergo, Goku Base is approximate to earlier Hit; earlier Hit is identical to later Hit; and later Hit is approximate to SSB Goku. Which cannot mean anything but "Base is approximate to SSB". I mean, under other circumstances it might be more ambiguous, but the series took the time to explicitly confirm that Hit wasn't powering up.

During Goku's first bout with Zamasu, SSJ2 is verbally stated to be several dozens of times stronger than Base. In this same story arc, SSJ3 is still way above SSJ2 and SSB is way above SSJ3. Ergo, Base is way below SSB.

Base is close to SSB. Base is way below SSB. Both of these are true, and they look pretty darn mutually exclusive to me. So, IMO, there are only three ways that makes sense.

1) One Base, One SSB "Because reasons"
[spoiler]Goku only has one Base, and when he fought Hit, he powered up to SSB (normally way above Base), immediately suppressed it down to barely above Base, and then risked a 90% chance of death to boost his massively suppressed SSB with Kaioken. Because reasons, I guess. And of course, he used everything full power during the Zamasu arc.

Base > heavily suppressed SSB > still suppressed SSB but with KKx10 > SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 > SSB[/spoiler]

2) One Base, Two SSBs
[spoiler]Goku only has one Base, but he has two SSBs. The one he used against Hit was barely stronger than Base, and the one seen in the Zamasu arc is the one that's way above Base. Still would have been better off with regular SSJ. And again, he stopped holding back and fought for real in the Zamasu arc.

Base > SSB > SSB KKx10 > SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 > SSB[/spoiler]

3) The Two-Base Theory
[spoiler]Goku fought Hit with SbG, then with SSB, and since they're close, it's logical for Hit to display similar performances against both forms. Goku met Zamasu in Base and powered up to SSJ2, way above Base but way below SSB.

Base > SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 > SbG > SSB > SSBKKx10[/spoiler]

Options 1 and 2 strike me as, frankly, ridiculous. Goku naturally has a weaksauce SSB (or he deliberately suppressed it down to that pitiable level) and he used it during one of the series' more pivotal battles? That's what passes for coherent? I say "No, sir".

That is what I meant.
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:05 am

ryan s wrote:Because it's a plot hole like many other things in Super, and he doesn't use the power of SSG as he can be sensed and he would turn SSB which debunks this whole thing

"This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan."! which is what you exactly are stating yet he never mutated into this form
Again, at the end of his fight with Beerus, he kept all (not just most, like in the movie, but all of it) of SSJG's power. As a SSJ. And his power could be sensed. He, indeed, was a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan, and that did not stop being the case just because the others could sense his power. Therefore, being as powerful as a SSJG does not auto-equate to not being sensed. That is from the series itself, so it can hardly be debunked, now can it?
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:59 am

Tectorman wrote: [spoiler]During Goku's fight with Hit, Hit improves his Time Skip, but otherwise stays the same. Same strength, same speed, same durability, same power. He starts the fight with his best techniques hampered by the tournament rules and that hindrance remains in effect all the way through. He even acts like he's powering up at one point, just to turn around and confirm that, no, he's not powering up at all.

So when Goku fights him in Base (or something that looks like Base), his performance is a fixed value. Later, when Goku fights as a SSB, Hit (who has not powered up or done anything to suggest now being in possession of increased durability) withstands Goku about the same as he did. Ergo, Goku Base is approximate to earlier Hit; earlier Hit is identical to later Hit; and later Hit is approximate to SSB Goku. Which cannot mean anything but "Base is approximate to SSB". I mean, under other circumstances it might be more ambiguous, but the series took the time to explicitly confirm that Hit wasn't powering up.

During Goku's first bout with Zamasu, SSJ2 is verbally stated to be several dozens of times stronger than Base. In this same story arc, SSJ3 is still way above SSJ2 and SSB is way above SSJ3. Ergo, Base is way below SSB.

Base is close to SSB. Base is way below SSB. Both of these are true, and they look pretty darn mutually exclusive to me. So, IMO, there are only three ways that makes sense.

1) One Base, One SSB "Because reasons"
Goku only has one Base, and when he fought Hit, he powered up to SSB (normally way above Base), immediately suppressed it down to barely above Base, and then risked a 90% chance of death to boost his massively suppressed SSB with Kaioken. Because reasons, I guess. And of course, he used everything full power during the Zamasu arc.

Base > heavily suppressed SSB > still suppressed SSB but with KKx10 > SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 > SSB

2) One Base, Two SSBs
Goku only has one Base, but he has two SSBs. The one he used against Hit was barely stronger than Base, and the one seen in the Zamasu arc is the one that's way above Base. Still would have been better off with regular SSJ. And again, he stopped holding back and fought for real in the Zamasu arc.

Base > SSB > SSB KKx10 > SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 > SSB

3) The Two-Base Theory
Goku fought Hit with SbG, then with SSB, and since they're close, it's logical for Hit to display similar performances against both forms. Goku met Zamasu in Base and powered up to SSJ2, way above Base but way below SSB.

Base > SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 > SbG > SSB > SSBKKx10

Options 1 and 2 strike me as, frankly, ridiculous. Goku naturally has a weaksauce SSB (or he deliberately suppressed it down to that pitiable level) and he used it during one of the series' more pivotal battles? That's what passes for coherent? I say "No, sir".

That is what I meant.[/spoiler]

This is a pretty strong argument for Saiyan Beyond God. It's one that I hadn't heard written out as clearly as you did. Lord, I hope there is an official confirmation at some point in DBSuper's run. All they have to do is mention Saiyan Beyond God and there could be an answer one way. Alternatively, if they mention how strong Goku's one Base form is, then we could have an answer too.

I found these images and wonder if they support one theory or the other:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by emperior » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:37 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
emperior wrote:I have a theory which I already posted in the Super power levels thread: Goku and Vegeta lose their SSG powered base once they turn SSB for the first time, and their bases revert to what they were once (but more powerful because they trained with Whis)
Goku still had the power of Super Saiyan God in FnF, or he wouldn't be able to fight Final Form Freeza. The FnF manga, which was overseen & approved by Toriyama like the Super manga, also made it clear that Goku had the power of Super Saiyan God.
My theory says that Goku loses his SSG base after he fights Freezer
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ryan s » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:45 am

you have clearly missed the whole point of that scene and are using it as evidence when it goes against the two base theory, he kept all the power but it converted into his own ki (became your own) really not that hard to understand because if it was a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan he could not be sensed and would be a ssb and SSG power can't be sensed by non gods (as established). really this is just absurd right now

you're blatantly contradicting the series
SSB= is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan
saiyan beyond god= a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan

really this is just stupid

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:25 pm

Goku and Vegeta are god-level in base in the Potaufeu arc only because it was written by Toei staff, and by that point they might not yet have received Toriyama's word on the retcon, especially since the Universe 6 Tournament may not have sent a strong enough signal that the retcon was already being effected.

But then came the Future Trunks arc again, and we saw things consistent with the showings from the U6 arc.

There is literally no way base Future Trunks can be SSj God level, neither can Cabba, who'd never even been a regular Super Saiyan. It's been stated explicitly that SSjG is a realm of power not even Goku thought he could ever achieve through training, and impossible to compare with any lesser form, even SSj3. And now you're suggesting that Cabba has all that power in his regular form, without ever being even a regular Super Saiyan? Yeah, no.

There are no "two bases" existing at the same time, so any theory trying to reconcile them is doomed to fail, this much I realize. Initially there was only the god-empowered base, with the only way to go above that being SSj Blue. But Toriyama backed out of it for some reason, possibly thinking that completely rendering the gold-haired Super Saiyan obsolete for Goku would be a bad move. So he simply went back on the new godly base > SSj Blue dynamic, just like he went back on the 6 to 10 power relationship.

In all showings except RoF and Potaufeu, Goku and Vegeta's bases have clearly been reverted to a realm pre-SSj God. The anime's only fault is that it hasn't brought in a replacement for the SSj God-tier power level, with the typical progression being base > SSj > SSj Blue. In Toyotaro's manga this problem has been solved by bringing back the original SSj God form, which clearly indicates that the base powers of Goku and Vegeta are not godly (unless you actually believe SSj God actually multiplies a godly base unto itself, in which case you're wrong).

There are no in-universe ways to explain it, it's just bad writing. But we have to acknowledge it. Hell, even Toyotaro himself acknowledged it, but found a clever way around.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:14 am

Saturnine wrote:Goku and Vegeta are god-level in base in the Potaufeu arc only because it was written by Toei staff, and by that point they might not yet have received Toriyama's word on the retcon, especially since the Universe 6 Tournament may not have sent a strong enough signal that the retcon was already being effected.

But then came the Future Trunks arc again, and we saw things consistent with the showings from the U6 arc.

There is literally no way base Future Trunks can be SSj God level, neither can Cabba, who'd never even been a regular Super Saiyan. It's been stated explicitly that SSjG is a realm of power not even Goku thought he could ever achieve through training, and impossible to compare with any lesser form, even SSj3. And now you're suggesting that Cabba has all that power in his regular form, without ever being even a regular Super Saiyan? Yeah, no.

There are no "two bases" existing at the same time, so any theory trying to reconcile them is doomed to fail, this much I realize. Initially there was only the god-empowered base, with the only way to go above that being SSj Blue. But Toriyama backed out of it for some reason, possibly thinking that completely rendering the gold-haired Super Saiyan obsolete for Goku would be a bad move. So he simply went back on the new godly base > SSj Blue dynamic, just like he went back on the 6 to 10 power relationship.

In all showings except RoF and Potaufeu, Goku and Vegeta's bases have clearly been reverted to a realm pre-SSj God. The anime's only fault is that it hasn't brought in a replacement for the SSj God-tier power level, with the typical progression being base > SSj > SSj Blue. In Toyotaro's manga this problem has been solved by bringing back the original SSj God form, which clearly indicates that the base powers of Goku and Vegeta are not godly (unless you actually believe SSj God actually multiplies a godly base unto itself, in which case you're wrong).

There are no in-universe ways to explain it, it's just bad writing. But we have to acknowledge it. Hell, even Toyotaro himself acknowledged it, but found a clever way around.
Okay, you're not including the U6 Hit fight as one of the instances where the series still suggests that Goku still has God-tier power in a Base-looking form, and I was considering that fight as one of the points in favor of the two-base theory (again, Hit's approximate performances against both Base and SSB when the series went out of its way to confirm that he remained the same throughout). I took that and concluded "Base is close to SSB". You're looking at that and concluding something different. How so?

As for Cabba, first of all, who says he is God-tier? Vegeta could've been using Base in that fight. Second of all, if Cabba needed to be God-tier, that would actually be easy. The SSJG ritual is rare and unknown in U7 (only been used twice ever) because back when the Saiyans were plentiful, they were mostly evil and could not use it. In U6, however, the Saiyans are both plentiful and good-hearted. Who's to say that in U6, the SSJG ritual (though it wouldn't necessarily be known by that name) isn't as common as dirt and more regularly results in Saiyan warriors retaining it or at least some of it the way Goku did? After all, we know SSJ isn't necessary for the SSJG ritual.

Same thing for Future Trunks. Why does he need to be God-tier in Base?
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:15 am

ryan s wrote:you have clearly missed the whole point of that scene and are using it as evidence when it goes against the two base theory, he kept all the power but it converted into his own ki (became your own) really not that hard to understand because if it was a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan he could not be sensed and would be a ssb and SSG power can't be sensed by non gods (as established). really this is just absurd right now

you're blatantly contradicting the series
SSB= is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan
saiyan beyond god= a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan

really this is just stupid
I am saying that Saiyan beyond God is Goku with his own ki, including the fact that it can be sensed by non-Gods, that is still as powerful as he was when he was a Super Saiyan God. That is factually what happened in the series. Goku stopped being a Super Saiyan God. He fought Beerus at the same level as before (this was explicitly stated). His power could be sensed (this was explicitly stated).

It is only when you define in your own head that "power of a SSJG" means ALL the qualities of the SSJG, including the fact that it cannot be sensed by non-Gods. I do not so define that term in that fashion, and so I have no issues. The series, likewise, does not define that term in that manner, so I'm contradicting exactly zilch.

I'll agree that things are getting absurd, but I fail to see how that's even peripherally occurring on my end. So explain to me which precise point you're disputing.

Is it that Goku stopped being a SSJG and kept fighting as a SSJ? Is it that Goku kept all the power when he did so? Is it that his power could then be sensed by non-Gods? Which do you disagree with?
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ryan s » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:44 am

oh ok that clears things up , this theory has changed since i last heard it i must admit. i thought you were saying something else my bad.

it's just about Goku's multipliers as Goku compared zamasu to initial Beerus so in my mind SSJ2 and 3 can be stacked onto his power

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Saturnine » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:52 pm

SSj Blue should indeed be close to Saiyan Beyond God. As long as you consider say, a 5-10x increase "close".

For lack of a better source, I'll go with Toyotaro's manga on this one. He has SSj God stronger than 10% of SSj Blue, so it could reasonably be anywhere from 11 to 20%. Godly base should therefore also be around that level.

But I agree - I did overlook Goku's warmup against Hit. He definitely put on a much better showing than a non-godly base level would suggest. Still, the white aura was missing, but I guess that can be excused.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:53 pm

Saturnine wrote:SSj Blue should indeed be close to Saiyan Beyond God. As long as you consider say, a 5-10x increase "close".

For lack of a better source, I'll go with Toyotaro's manga on this one. He has SSj God stronger than 10% of SSj Blue, so it could reasonably be anywhere from 11 to 20%. Godly base should therefore also be around that level.

But I agree - I did overlook Goku's warmup against Hit. He definitely put on a much better showing than a non-godly base level would suggest. Still, the white aura was missing, but I guess that can be excused.
I say it's a x2 boost. That's the only way to make sense of Black even landing a kick on SSB Vegeta.

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by ryan s » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 pm

Saturnine wrote:SSj Blue should indeed be close to Saiyan Beyond God. As long as you consider say, a 5-10x increase "close".

For lack of a better source, I'll go with Toyotaro's manga on this one. He has SSj God stronger than 10% of SSj Blue, so it could reasonably be anywhere from 11 to 20%. Godly base should therefore also be around that level.

But I agree - I did overlook Goku's warmup against Hit. He definitely put on a much better showing than a non-godly base level would suggest. Still, the white aura was missing, but I guess that can be excused.
this theory doesn't exist, Goku can still go SSJ2 and SSJ3 and SSB, there is no godly base just a power up version

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by cheddarsword » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:49 pm

please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again... because i think we can all agree that there are better characters in the DB universe than goku for that.

but from what i can gather, the biggest source of contention comes from weather or not you can consider Super Saiyan God as a new base form with Super Saiyan Blue being an extension of that.

if you ask me, it would have made sense for that to indeed be the case, but no, toriyama had to go and complicate things...

of course, i guess he had to do something to limit goku from just jumping straight to super saiyan god super saiyan 3...

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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by Tectorman » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:39 pm

cheddarsword wrote:please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again... because i think we can all agree that there are better characters in the DB universe than goku for that.
Don't see how it would be. It was always an attempt to make everything below Goku's best form make sense. Using the two-base or not, Goku's maximum stays unaffected.
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Re: How strong is Base Goku?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:13 am

cheddarsword wrote:please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again
It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.
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