How strong is Base Goku?

[Gog]

Stronger than Raditz, weaker than Whis.

[Shlugo]

I'm not saying that the two of them weren't possibly stronger than the likes of the stronger Buu arc characters, I'm simply saying that I wouldn't say that Goku was near Beerus's level of power due to that fight, because we know Beerus was holding back. Additionally, we know that, through the interview between Toriyama and Toyotaro, Goku and Vegeta hadn't surpassed Beerus and Whis by at least the Future Trunks arc of Super, meaning that if Ssj Blue Goku hadn't surpassed Beerus, than his base form was miles from Beerus.

Well yeah, obviously base Goku is nowhere near Beerus full power. But anyone who can make Beerus excited for a fight should be well beyond Buu arc levels of power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In the BoG/FnF movies, he is about as strong as Super Saiyan God.

In the Super anime, he is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and 50 times weaker than Super Saiyan God.

In the Super manga, he is still below Namek arc Freeza, though Goku Black's power seems to match more with BoG/FnF Goku's rather than Super manga Goku's so... maybe he had the power of God before and lost it for some reason, but he'll learn how to control in in a future arc, meaning we'll see him the infamous "two base theory" at some point?

[Perfectionist-Cell]

It's pretty obvious Goku is using god ki in his base at some points in the series and some points he isn't. I'm aware that this is filler but when copy Vegeta was fighting (Ssj3 Gotenks) and one shot's him he was using God ki. When he was fighting Tarble he wasn't using god ki. It's same when Goku is fighting Gohan in base form and when he is fighting Frieza in base form.

[SaiyanGod117]

In the movies he's SSG level, in Super I don't know.

[pacz360]

It's pretty obvious Goku is using god ki in his base at some points in the series and some points he isn't. I'm aware that this is filler but when copy Vegeta was fighting (Ssj3 Gotenks) and one shot's him he was using God ki. When he was fighting Tarble he wasn't using god ki. It's same when Goku is fighting Gohan in base form and when he is fighting Frieza in base form.

It's canon in the anime goku reference it in the black arc
and no copy vegeta just stomp no powering up

[Darkprince410]

It's pretty obvious Goku is using god ki in his base at some points in the series and some points he isn't. I'm aware that this is filler but when copy Vegeta was fighting (Ssj3 Gotenks) and one shot's him he was using God ki. When he was fighting Tarble he wasn't using god ki. It's same when Goku is fighting Gohan in base form and when he is fighting Frieza in base form.

It's not obvious at all, because there's no evidence that they could tap into godly ki at any point other than while Ssj Blue. After all, despite all the times where Gohan and the others were spectating Goku and Vegeta fight, there was no suggestion that they they couldn't be sensed while in their base forms or that their base forms were performing better than their ki levels would indicate.

[dario03]

Stronger than SS4 Goku but weaker than base GT Goku.

[AvatarReiko]

It's pretty obvious Goku is using god ki in his base at some points in the series and some points he isn't. I'm aware that this is filler but when copy Vegeta was fighting (Ssj3 Gotenks) and one shot's him he was using God ki. When he was fighting Tarble he wasn't using god ki. It's same when Goku is fighting Gohan in base form and when he is fighting Frieza in base form.

It's not obvious at all, because there's no evidence that they could tap into godly ki at any point other than while Ssj Blue. After all, despite all the times where Gohan and the others were spectating Goku and Vegeta fight, there was no suggestion that they they couldn't be sensed while in their base forms or that their base forms were performing better than their ki levels would indicate.

Didn't Goku in the BOG movie say that he absorbed some of SSJ gods power, which was how he could fight Beers in base?

[Darkprince410]

Didn't Goku in the BOG movie say that he absorbed some of SSJ gods power, which was how he could fight Beers in base?

He merged with the power of Ssj God, yes, but again, there's no evidence that doing so actually gave him actual access to god ki in any form other than Ssj Blue. After all, we get no comments of characters like Gohan being unable to sense Goku or Vegeta in base form during the scenes that people suggest they'd be using god ki (such as the battle with Freeza) and, in fact, it's made clear that they could sense them up until they transformed to Ssj Blue. Additionally, there's nothing said or suggested to indicate that they were using part normal/part god ki, like Gohan or the others saying things like Goku doing a lot better against Freeza than it feels like he should or something to that effect.

Essentially, the whole "two base" system comes down to one thing, that there seems to be this stigma against the U6 individuals being powerful, that fans don't like the idea of individuals like Frost or Cabba being in the same tier as high-end Buu arc characters (if not higher), when there's no valid reason for them not to be able to be that strong. It's a different universe, with the events that transpired in those universes being significantly different than they are in U7. So, coming up with this unsupported theory that Goku and Vegeta could switch on and off having god ki in their base forms, when there's nothing valid supporting it, just makes no sense.

[Tectorman]

Essentially, the whole "two base" system comes down to one thing, that there seems to be this stigma against the U6 individuals being powerful, that fans don't like the idea of individuals like Frost or Cabba being in the same tier as high-end Buu arc characters (if not higher), when there's no valid reason for them not to be able to be that strong. It's a different universe, with the events that transpired in those universes being significantly different than they are in U7. So, coming up with this unsupported theory that Goku and Vegeta could switch on and off having god ki in their base forms, when there's nothing valid supporting it, just makes no sense.

I'm not going to speak for other "two-base" proponents, but for myself, it was never remotely about wanting to keep the U6 fighters down. It was about the movie establishing that Goku kept the God power in Base, the RoF movie not upsetting that paradigm (well, beyond changing the "Super Saiyan Beyond God" to SSGSS), the series up to those two points also adhering (or at least, not upsetting) that paradigm, and then trying to explain in-universe what's going on to keep to the new events (that just so happen to occur while the U6 fighters appear on-screen) while also holding to the previous paradigm.

And just as much as you may have to ignore things to hold to the "two-base" theory, you also have to ignore things if you don't hold to a "two-base" theory.

People keep saying that it's about a stigma against the U6 fighters and I'm continually bewildered as to how that could be the case.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

It's pretty obvious Goku is using god ki in his base at some points in the series and some points he isn't. I'm aware that this is filler but when copy Vegeta was fighting (Ssj3 Gotenks) and one shot's him he was using God ki. When he was fighting Tarble he wasn't using god ki. It's same when Goku is fighting Gohan in base form and when he is fighting Frieza in base form.

It's canon in the anime goku reference it in the black arc
and no copy vegeta just stomp no powering up

He has to power up to give indication he is using God ki?

[Perfectionist-Cell]

It's pretty obvious Goku is using god ki in his base at some points in the series and some points he isn't. I'm aware that this is filler but when copy Vegeta was fighting (Ssj3 Gotenks) and one shot's him he was using God ki. When he was fighting Tarble he wasn't using god ki. It's same when Goku is fighting Gohan in base form and when he is fighting Frieza in base form.

It's not obvious at all, because there's no evidence that they could tap into godly ki at any point other than while Ssj Blue. After all, despite all the times where Gohan and the others were spectating Goku and Vegeta fight, there was no suggestion that they they couldn't be sensed while in their base forms or that their base forms were performing better than their ki levels would indicate.

Goku and Vegeta don't fight much in their base forms and didn't the power get absorbed into their bodies? The series already shows they can use god ki as often as an on and off switch since they are seen multiple times in regular ssj then going ssb. Why wouldn't they be able to use it in base form? IMO their training with Whis hasn't really shown its accomplishments since almost every major opponent they faced was stronger than them. So that gives reason why they should be able to use god ki in base form.And how about that time Goku fought Beerus in base form in Super.Do you really think training alone keeps him on par with Beerus?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Essentially, the whole "two base" system comes down to one thing, that there seems to be this stigma against the U6 individuals being powerful, that fans don't like the idea of individuals like Frost or Cabba being in the same tier as high-end Buu arc characters (if not higher), when there's no valid reason for them not to be able to be that strong.

No, these aren't the main factors for the "two base" theory, these are additional points.

In Battle of Gods, Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form (Vegeta did the same between BoG & FnF). Whether he had godly ki or not wasn't made clear, but what was made clear that he was almost as strong as SSG in his base form, and transforming further into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God was useless. By the time of Resurrection "F", Goku's regular Super Saiyan had evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, which was an upgraded version of his regular Super Saiyan and not a form beyond Super Saiyan.

Then Super begun. In the manga, Goku & Vegeta were still solely using Super Saiyan Blue, until they trained inside the Room of Spirit and Time. Before RoSaT, Goku & Vegeta appeared to be Saiyans with the power of God. However, after they got out of the RoSaT, they appear to be back to their regular levels, and not only they can use their regular gold transformations once again, but they can use SSG as well. Then Black appears, and he appears to be a Saiyan with the power of SSG, although weakened because he has stolen Goku's body. Eventually he regains all of Goku's power, and his regular Super Saiyan form becomes Super Saiyan Rosé (his version of Super Saiyan Blue, altered because he has a god's soul).

So, why would Vegeta use his most powerful form (which has many drawbacks on top of that) against base Goku in a sparring match? If Black is slowly drawing out the power Goku had before they switched bodies, how does Black being vastly stronger than Goku was make sense? Why did Black's SS become SSR?

At least as far as the manga is concerned, Goku & Vegeta appear to have learned to control the power of SSG inside the RoSaT, which means they can now freely turn into Super Saiyan Gods and also turn on & off its power in their base forms. They chose to abandon their base with SSG power and just use SSG instead when necessary, which doesn't have any drawbacks after all, probably to control their power better & not walk around with the power of SSG all the time. Black was probably stuck in that state on the other hand.

In the anime, battle powers are a bit messy, but the same thing seems to be going on, except they don't use SSG, SSB doesn't have drawbacks from start, and Vegeta trained to obtain the power of SSG instead of becoming one & absorbing its power.

[Darkprince410]

Goku and Vegeta don't fight much in their base forms and didn't the power get absorbed into their bodies? The series already shows they can use god ki as often as an on and off switch since they are seen multiple times in regular ssj then going ssb. Why wouldn't they be able to use it in base form? IMO their training with Whis hasn't really shown its accomplishments since almost every major opponent they faced was stronger than them. So that gives reason why they should be able to use god ki in base form.And how about that time Goku fought Beerus in base form in Super.Do you really think training alone keeps him on par with Beerus?

The only time he fought against Beerus, Beerus was forcibly restraining himself to keep from tearing the suit apart he was in, thus not putting anywhere near as much power into the fight as he could.

As for the use of both Ssj and Ssj Blue, refer to what I said below.

In Battle of Gods, Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form (Vegeta did the same between BoG & FnF). Whether he had godly ki or not wasn't made clear, but what was made clear that he was almost as strong as SSG in his base form, and transforming further into a Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan God was useless. By the time of Resurrection "F", Goku's regular Super Saiyan had evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, which was an upgraded version of his regular Super Saiyan and not a form beyond Super Saiyan.

The thing is though, the way it's worded in Super leaves it open that it is a form beyond Super Saiyan, not an upgraded form of the regular Ssj form. When he describes it to Freeza, he says it's a form that is " a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan." While a lot take it as him saying that it's the Saiyan that has the power of Ssj God, it could be taken as him saying that it's the Super Saiyan with the power of Ssj God, and thus he's saying it's a Super Saiyan form with the power of Ssj God. This would therefore support why Vegeta refers to it multiple times as the "latest form" as if it's something brand new and not just the same old Ssj form with a different ki type being used.

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

[Tectorman]

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

What was the issue with them still having the regular SSJ forms before? As of the BoG movie and later RoF, the understanding was that they had become comparatively useless next to the SbG and SSbG (and later SSGSS), not non-existent. Their use of those lesser forms anyway just established that Goku and Vegeta could and would still fight using their lesser forms.

As for the question of "why?", that was already covered in RoF. The Z Fighters fought Frieza's army suppressed and were eventually fatigued enough to need Senzu beans. Now true, maybe they were only minorly diminshed and were just using the beans to top themselves off as a precaution, but it was still established that fighting suppressed does impose an unknown but nontrivial energy drain. Just like the lesser forms other than FPSSJ. So Goku and Vegeta still using their lesser forms rather than fighting as SbGs is simply a matter of "six of one, half a dozen of the other"; i.e., they'd be facing an energy drain no matter what they did.

[Darkprince410]

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

What was the issue with them still having the regular SSJ forms before? As of the BoG movie and later RoF, the understanding was that they had become comparatively useless next to the SbG and SSbG (and later SSGSS), not non-existent. Their use of those lesser forms anyway just established that Goku and Vegeta could and would still fight using their lesser forms.

The "issue" with them having the regular Ssj forms as that people were saying it was proof that they could turn on and off god ki in general, and thus they should have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. What I'm saying is that, if Ssj Blue is an actual new Ssj form and not simply Super Saiyan with god ki (as most seem to say), then that'd explain how they have the ability to transform to their regular Ssj forms as well as Blue, but not have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. That it's literally only Ssj Blue that gives them access to god ki.

[ChiefWamsutta]

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

What was the issue with them still having the regular SSJ forms before? As of the BoG movie and later RoF, the understanding was that they had become comparatively useless next to the SbG and SSbG (and later SSGSS), not non-existent. Their use of those lesser forms anyway just established that Goku and Vegeta could and would still fight using their lesser forms.

The "issue" with them having the regular Ssj forms as that people were saying it was proof that they could turn on and off god ki in general, and thus they should have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. What I'm saying is that, if Ssj Blue is an actual new Ssj form and not simply Super Saiyan with god ki (as most seem to say), then that'd explain how they have the ability to transform to their regular Ssj forms as well as Blue, but not have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. That it's literally only Ssj Blue that gives them access to god ki.

Originally, I believe that SSBlue was meant to be Super Saiyan with a god ki twist, but now it seems to be different. We almost have to start looking at SSGod and SSBlue as though they are a SS4 and SS5.

This whole god ki thing has made everything TOO complicated, and it forces us to look into things in very weird ways.

There is a clip just before Base Goku fights Final Form Frieza where Frieza asks Goku if he will use Super Saiyan. Goku then says he has no need to do that in this fight. This implies that Goku can, in fact, use Super Saiyan and SSBlue.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball- ... oku-723921 From 21:00 to 21:24

[Juub]

This keeps Goku and Vegeta being at godly levels of power in their base form as well as explains how they can still use the regular Ssj forms as well as Ssj Blue. It's a new Ssj form that just takes on the appearance of the regular Ssj form (only with blue hair) and gives them access to god ki, and isn't actually Ssj with god ki.

What was the issue with them still having the regular SSJ forms before? As of the BoG movie and later RoF, the understanding was that they had become comparatively useless next to the SbG and SSbG (and later SSGSS), not non-existent. Their use of those lesser forms anyway just established that Goku and Vegeta could and would still fight using their lesser forms.

The "issue" with them having the regular Ssj forms as that people were saying it was proof that they could turn on and off god ki in general, and thus they should have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. What I'm saying is that, if Ssj Blue is an actual new Ssj form and not simply Super Saiyan with god ki (as most seem to say), then that'd explain how they have the ability to transform to their regular Ssj forms as well as Blue, but not have the capacity to use god ki in their base forms. That it's literally only Ssj Blue that gives them access to god ki.

Goku's Base form absorbed the power of his SSJG form in early DBS.
SSJB is the only form that uses God Ki.
The other forms are far more powerful than they used to be. Base Goku would crap on anyone from DBZ.

[GigaDrill]

Going by the theory that Goku has a normal ki and a god ki state, normal ki base shouldn't be too far beyond pre-BoG base Goku while god ki base is likely at Buuhan to Super Vegito levels.