Does God ki have to be unlocked or can it be gained over time?

[Lord Beerus]

The problem with that is that historically Dragon Ball has also obsoleted useless techniques such as kaioken. If there is truly no tangible benefit and SSB doesn't drain stamina like SSJ then there is no in-universe reason for Goku/Vegeta to not automatically always use SSB. I've stated this in the other thread but the idea that SSB output can be manipulated and how creating lore which isn't actual stated or exist is not a valid argument. There's no need to retread that.

The surpassing the God's angle is fine and I like the trope. The problem is we are at punching incorrectly = universe destruction levels. A power which Golden Frieza and Hit are shown to have even surpassed. Basically what I am getting from this users question is where does God ki come from, how strong is it, and do you actually need it. You can tell the original poster is completely confused because he references both Vegeta and Frieza as thinking they trained to have God ki when only Vegeta did. The poster made the natural assumption that if you get to that level of power you are using God ki, which is incorrect. I don't blame him for assuming that. In this poster's mind they are fighting at the same level, so the assumption is they are using the same type of ki.

To be fair, the only reason that Goku stopped using the Kaioken was because Super Saiyan became a thing. Hell, Goku prior to be becoming a Super Saiyan, had already mastered the Kaioken to the degree where he could use it continuously in a fight without too much strain. And as explained in Episode 39 of Super, the major reason that Goku didn't use the Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan in the past was because the Super Saiyan form is hard on the body all on its own, which made using the two of them together virtually suicidal, hence why Goku abandoned the Kaioken for a long time. But Super Saiyan Blue is a strong and “calm” form with perfect ki control, so using it and the Kaio-Ken together is feasible.

And to be fair, yes, Dragon Ball Super went to universe destructing feats a bit too soon. But realistically it should have reached that stage before even Beerus and Super Saiyan God was thing. Given how much the story escalated in terms of power and "feats" from the initial fight between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and beyond that. I mean, Cell threatened to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by just screaming for crying out loud.

I agree and this is my single greatest issue with Super in terms of how it drives the plot.

When last leave our fighters the greatest threat they have every seen is Majin Buu, an entity that took several years to destroy a few hundred planets. Prior to that it was Cell who was only capable of solar system level destruction. Even in GT, the greatest and most powerful enemy they faced was only capable of Galaxy level destruction.

This is when we are introduced to Beerus and SSG, where just the shockwave from their punches is casually destroying planets across the universe and threatens, through punching incorrectly, the entire universe. This first introductory arc ends with learning that Goku, as a SSJ, not even SSJ2/3 is around that same level of power.

Jumping to the Frieza arc we find that Goku and somehow Vegeta through specialized trained have surpassed the level of universe punching strength. However we also learn that Frieza trains for 4 months and reaches a level which surpasses SSG and universe punching strength. We accept this because we are told Frieza is a mutant who never trains.

Then we are in the Champa arc and see Goku go SSJ, which in the first arc was said to be around SSG level with the capacity to punch the universe out of existence. Vegeta, as a SSJ should also be around this level. So when we see fighters who have them go SSJ because their base isn't enough we have to assume they should be capable of at least punching a small planet out of existence or about 1/50 the strength of SSG. Then we see Hit go up against SSB, a form which has surpassed SSG levels of punching out the universe. But Hit is still hanging in there, then Goku turns it up and notch and stacks KK on top of SSB. At this point in our minds speaking too loudly could destroy the universe. But then Goku cranks it up to 11, (well actually 10), with KK x SSB x 10. You would think just the beating of his heart or passing gas would be enough to destroy a planet.

Then we see Base Goku take on Beerus, and SSJ3 Gotenks take on Base Vegeta level who completely tanks everything.

Then Trunks appears. A guy who had training with the Z sword and supreme kai and he is only able to barely defeat Dabura. However sometime after is shown to be sparring fairly evenly with SSJ Goku. The same Goku who was capable of punching the universe out of existence a few arcs ago but only after obtaining the specialest of special ki, God ki.

I'm actually getting tired so I won't go into the whole Zamasu/Black or any of the other filler like SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan.

The point I'm making is that from the beginning arc a standard was set.
Base Goku = greater than SSJ3 Gotenks.
SSJ Goku = SSG levels.

When we see anyone doing anything at or exceeding either of those two levels based on what was presented and reinforced we start asking the question are they God tier, how did they get that strong? It's not an unreasonable question to ask. Are the power of base and SSJ inappropriately exaggerated or are characters really getting to that level?

You make some good points.

I think Super is just caught in a tricky situation because of how historically bad the power creep was in the original story from the Saiyan arc and beyond. At this stage, Super can't really dial it down at any stage when it comes to characters growing in strength or "feats". Especially since Super is set right after an arc when we saw the main character new tear the world apart by blowing up and we saw the central antagonist tear through dimensions and rips apart the fabric of real by accident through just yelling,

If a story like Dragon Ball is to have any kind of tension or to properly emphasis the presence and power of any new characters, especially if it's the central antagonist, the power scaling by default has to inflate. Whether it happens artificially or naturally, isn't really a major issue. But it has to happen. It all made all the more apparent with how the main villain of Saiyan arc has a BP of 18,000 and the very next arc the central antagonist has BP of 530,000... IN JUST HIS FIRST FORM. That's fucking crazy when you think about. Especially with what we see what Vegeta was capable of in the Saiyan arc.

It's really case of how you take the approach to characters getting stronger or being that strong by default that really affects your perspective of the story and how well you think the narrative in being handled in relation to the characters being relevant in the story through just their raw power. Some people may be fine with it and others may not be and will want more detail to swallow the pill better. Even if you give a good explanation for a character being as strong as they are, some people may still not accept how certain characters get as strong as they do.

[TheMikado]

To be fair, the only reason that Goku stopped using the Kaioken was because Super Saiyan became a thing. Hell, Goku prior to be becoming a Super Saiyan, had already mastered the Kaioken to the degree where he could use it continuously in a fight without too much strain. And as explained in Episode 39 of Super, the major reason that Goku didn't use the Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan in the past was because the Super Saiyan form is hard on the body all on its own, which made using the two of them together virtually suicidal, hence why Goku abandoned the Kaioken for a long time. But Super Saiyan Blue is a strong and “calm” form with perfect ki control, so using it and the Kaio-Ken together is feasible.

And to be fair, yes, Dragon Ball Super went to universe destructing feats a bit too soon. But realistically it should have reached that stage before even Beerus and Super Saiyan God was thing. Given how much the story escalated in terms of power and "feats" from the initial fight between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan arc and beyond that. I mean, Cell threatened to destroy the solar system with a single Kamehameha, and then after that we got Super Boo accidentally tearing a hole through dimensions and ripping apart reality by just screaming for crying out loud.

I agree and this is my single greatest issue with Super in terms of how it drives the plot.

When last leave our fighters the greatest threat they have every seen is Majin Buu, an entity that took several years to destroy a few hundred planets. Prior to that it was Cell who was only capable of solar system level destruction. Even in GT, the greatest and most powerful enemy they faced was only capable of Galaxy level destruction.

This is when we are introduced to Beerus and SSG, where just the shockwave from their punches is casually destroying planets across the universe and threatens, through punching incorrectly, the entire universe. This first introductory arc ends with learning that Goku, as a SSJ, not even SSJ2/3 is around that same level of power.

Jumping to the Frieza arc we find that Goku and somehow Vegeta through specialized trained have surpassed the level of universe punching strength. However we also learn that Frieza trains for 4 months and reaches a level which surpasses SSG and universe punching strength. We accept this because we are told Frieza is a mutant who never trains.

Then we are in the Champa arc and see Goku go SSJ, which in the first arc was said to be around SSG level with the capacity to punch the universe out of existence. Vegeta, as a SSJ should also be around this level. So when we see fighters who have them go SSJ because their base isn't enough we have to assume they should be capable of at least punching a small planet out of existence or about 1/50 the strength of SSG. Then we see Hit go up against SSB, a form which has surpassed SSG levels of punching out the universe. But Hit is still hanging in there, then Goku turns it up and notch and stacks KK on top of SSB. At this point in our minds speaking too loudly could destroy the universe. But then Goku cranks it up to 11, (well actually 10), with KK x SSB x 10. You would think just the beating of his heart or passing gas would be enough to destroy a planet.

Then we see Base Goku take on Beerus, and SSJ3 Gotenks take on Base Vegeta level who completely tanks everything.

Then Trunks appears. A guy who had training with the Z sword and supreme kai and he is only able to barely defeat Dabura. However sometime after is shown to be sparring fairly evenly with SSJ Goku. The same Goku who was capable of punching the universe out of existence a few arcs ago but only after obtaining the specialest of special ki, God ki.

I'm actually getting tired so I won't go into the whole Zamasu/Black or any of the other filler like SSJ Goku vs SSJ Gohan.

The point I'm making is that from the beginning arc a standard was set.
Base Goku = greater than SSJ3 Gotenks.
SSJ Goku = SSG levels.

When we see anyone doing anything at or exceeding either of those two levels based on what was presented and reinforced we start asking the question are they God tier, how did they get that strong? It's not an unreasonable question to ask. Are the power of base and SSJ inappropriately exaggerated or are characters really getting to that level?

You make some good points.

I think Super is just caught in a tricky situation because of how historically bad the power creep was in the original story from the Saiyan arc and beyond. At this stage, Super can't really dial it down at any stage when it comes to characters growing in strength or "feats". Especially since Super is set right after an arc when we saw the main character new tear the world apart by blowing up and we saw the central antagonist tear through dimeions and rips apart the fabric of real by accident through just yelling,

If a story like Dragon Ball is to have any kind of tension or to properly emphasis the presence and power of any new characters, especially if it's the central antagonist, the power scaling by default has to inflate. Whether it happens artificially or naturally, isn't really a major issue. But it has to happen. It all made all the more apparent with how the main villain of Saiyan arc has a BP of 18,000 and the very very next central antagonist has BP of 530,000... IN JUST HIS FIRST FORM. That's fucking crazy when you think about. Especially with what we see what Vegeta was capable of in the Saiyan arc.

It's really case of how you take the approach to characters getting stronger or being that strong by default that really affects your perspective of the story and how well you think the narrative in being handled in relation to the characters being relevant in the story through just their raw power. Some people may be fine with it and others may not be and will want more detail to swallow the pill better. Even if you give a good explanation for a character being as strong as they are, some people may still not accept how certain characters get as strong as they do.

Well you see this is where it becomes really interesting. The creator of One Punch Man recently talked about his love and inspiration from Dragon Ball. As most are aware One Punch Man takes a very critical approach to common shonen tropes which include being overpowered and reaching those levels of power through "training".

The "Z" portion of Dragonball certainly upped the ante, however it even appears to have made strides to self regulate. Even during the android saga the power inflation from SSJ1 to SSJ2 is much smaller. And the buu saga used other temporary plot devices such as fusion to prevent permanent exponential power inflation.

As stated the problem with Super is where it starts in terms of power levels. The levels were already grossly over inflated to unbelievable levels, inflating it to the level of universe level flattening punches as the starting point of power was its greatest detriment. It literally gives the narrative no where to go except up and in order to expand the cast and threats you need to make this uber level less special and thus more unbelievable that others are able to achieve it. One Punch Man addresses this with its protagonist, his entire premise is that he is so powerful he is literally looking for a challenge but continually disappointed because no one is as strong as him. There's some good analysis of One Punch Man vs Dragon Ball but this is training aspect is an important one.

"One Punch Man” creates humor from its character interactions and doesn’t rely too heavily on the spoof factor, but those who watch anime or superhero shows often can appreciate the level of satire.

In the fight sequence in which Saitama fights Asura Rhino, Saitama explains his workout routine that made him so strong – the same routine that caused him to go bald: 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats and a 10-K run.

Anyone who as seen at least one episode of a fighting anime knows the lengths in which characters go to train for their next fight can border on obsessive and deadly. Compared to Saitama’s basic workout, its like the manga creators are poking fun at every training montage ever made.

As expected, the other characters present in the scene don’t believe it.

Making the characters self-aware of how preposterous Saitama’s workout is and how powerful the protagonist is gets to the root of what the show is all about.

While other anime shows put the viewer in a position to want to know how powerful the next enemy will be, there is only so far it can go until that gets ridiculous.

For example, after attaining the powerups “Super Saiyan 1, 2, 3 and 4,” Goku and Vegeta in “Dragon Ball Z” have attained the power level of “God,” seemingly forcing the writers into a hole – where do you go from “Super Saiyan God?”

This categorizes the exact issue we have in Super. We are not at this uber "God" level with Goku just in SSJ form. But when anyone exceeds this level of strength we are often met with a simple "I've been training". The same response the characters in the fictional universe of One Punch Man is the same response fans are having to DBS power inflation. The difference is Dragon Ball Super seems to be playing it entirely with a straight face as if the audience isn't intelligent to notice its preposterous. The other theory I have is that Toriyama is secretly a fan of One Punch Man, is aware of the troupe and is secretly trolling all of us.

In either case the narrative and threat level have taken a bizarre turn. We have uber powerful God characters, Multiple means of time travel and manipulation, three different sets of Dragon Balls, and the Omni King who can literally will aware any threat at all. What could the arc following this possible have which would be a creditable threat to a man who is buddies with the guy who controls all existence?

Anyway. Some great articles on analyzing both the power creep and troupes, as well as what One Punch Man says about the Shonen genre in general.

http://www.ubspectrum.com/article/2015/ ... oofs-anime
https://moviepilot.com/p/one-punch-man- ... me/4077579

[VegettoEX]

I feel like this is veering into general strength debate/analysis again, rather than addressing the specific question from the title and first post. Please try to keep things on-topic and concise! Thanks!

[ckal9]

I think it can be gained over time based on one os Whis' statements early on in the DBS series (around ep 11 or 13 or so IIRC). He stated that once you get to a certain level, you can sense god ki. The level would be a high power level through training. I think that's how you can get god ki. It's like Goku achieved it through cheating, looking at it in that regard.

[cheddarsword]

I think it can be gained over time based on one os Whis' statements early on in the DBS series (around ep 11 or 13 or so IIRC). He stated that once you get to a certain level, you can sense god ki. The level would be a high power level through training. I think that's how you can get god ki. It's like Goku achieved it through cheating, looking at it in that regard.

Sensing it isn't the same as having it. Dende can sense all energy (since he's able to locate 17) because he has God status, though not necessarily God Ki.

17 did achieve a power rivaling a god but he doesn't have God Ki. Actually, I question weather or not it's even Ki with 17 and 18 as it can only be sensed by people with a godly position. Not even Goku can in Blue form. So God Ki isn't the only factor there.

I think Godly Position also plays a factor in ones abilities. As such, Beerus DOES have a special ability unique to his position. Destruction. Anyone can blow up a planet at this point. But only a God of Destruction or Zeno has the ability to just outright Destroy "anything".

And as for power, it is inherently stronger than normal Ki but normal Ki can indeed be raised above it, with SS1 Goku (Buu Saga) being stronger than Kaioshin (at least, that's how I perceived it).

Also, his name is Majin Buu... Aren't Majin's demon gods in Japanese mythology?