What is the "two base theory"?

[AvatarReiko]

I've seen it mentioned in several threads in relation to Godku but can someone explain what the argument is?

[Saturnine]

That Goku doesn't have the level of strength of Super Saiyan God in base in all instances.

This is suggested by a few things, such as him using the regular SSj forms, where only SSj Blue should be possible from then on, and him or Vegeta fighting equally in base with other base Saiyans, who definitely couldn't be in the god realm of power, such as Cabba or Future Trunks.

It's generally accepted that Goku and Vegeta had their god power in base in the RoF arc, as well as the Potaufeu arc, where base Copy Vegeta could easily defeat SSj3 Gotenks.

[TheMikado]

I've seen it mentioned in several threads in relation to Godku but can someone explain what the argument is?

Hi, I was one for the first believers and developers of the two base theory since the Champa arc.

The two base theory essentially says that God ki can be turned on and off independently of SSJ.

What this means is that whenever you see God using yellow SSJ it means he has not activated God ki and if he were to revert to base he would be around as strong as his base level was in the Buu saga.

When he goes blue he has activated both God ki and SSJ.

This is where it gets tricky and why it exists in the first place:

1st Super Saiyan God implies it is a SSJ form. However I believe it is a miss namer similar to how SSJ4 is not the next stage of SSJ3 but a different evolutionary path altogether.

When Goku because a SS God he was not using SSJ but had God ki. It was implied at the end of BoG and in RoF that Goku and now somehow Vegeta had base forms far exceeding SSJ3. They even labeled the for "Saiyan beyond God" in some Video games. This implies their base levels had grown at least 400-500x what it was since the beginning of Super/BoG and is later confirmed in the Copy Vegeta arc.

This is what presented the problem, if Vegeta and Goku got at the very least 400-500x stronger than then where say Gohans base was, then stack SSJ with it 50x multiplier or SSJ3 with its 400x multiplier on top of that, or Go SSB with whatever multiplier that is beyonf SSJ3 maybe another x1000 and then KK x 10 on top of that. A Goku going SSB xKk x10 should be several million times stronger than a base Gohan without Whis training. Yet we see Goku and Gohan fairly evenly even though logically Gokubshould be 500x stronger.

Anyway it was developed because there were times when the characters were shown either stronger or weaker than they should be particularly in base. In the anime there is no specific visual queue, in the manga they have SSG. Which is a non SSJ God ki based form.

The power level structure in the manga is base Goku - SSJ forms - God form - SSB form and people think that logically for things to make sense the anime should also keep the same power structure but for some variety of reasons it doesn't.

[Tectorman]

TheMikado essentially has it. As of the movies, Goku and Vegeta were understood to have grown far stronger in their normal Saiyan forms than anything they had previously. The previous SSJ transformations were a thing of the past, and all that was left was the SSG-strong Base, maybe the slightly-stronger God-remnant SSJ that Goku had used at the very end of his fight with Beerus, and finally SSB.

The anime comes out and follows the movies more or less. He still keeps all of SSG's strength as a SSJ (and even stops the most powerful universe-busting orb of energy as a Saiyan at the very end). The RoF arc plays out more or less the same with only Base (or something that looks like Base) and SSB being seen.

Then the anime continued the story past the RoF arc and reintroduced the lesser forms. That raised eyebrows, since they were previously understood to be relics, possibly still existing but assuredly useless at this point.

Those later arcs continued to use the lesser forms as though SbG had never been a thing. Not "it was a thing but for this reason they stopped using it", but "it is not now snd never was a thing and everything you thought you were watching was a lie".

The two-base theory is a theoretical model that instead holds that everything that was a thing then still is a thing now, and if SbG is not used now, it's for a reason other than it suddenly winking out without an explanation.

I.e., a lack of an explanation goes only so far. Chalking something no longer being used lies within those bounds. Saying it was never a thing at all lies outside.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Base Goku never has God ki, stop spreading this everyone and do your homework. In the anime, everyone could sense SS Goku's ki even though he had the power of Super Saiyan God. In both the manga & anime, Trunks could sense base Black's ki, who apparently also had the power of Super Saiyan God.

The two base theory is about Goku (and Vegeta) having two base forms, a regular base, and a base with the power of Super Saiyan God, but without god ki.

God ki isn't some special power that makes everyone super-strong, get this idea out of your heads. The Kaios & the Kaioshins have god ki. Fucking Dende has god ki. It simply can't be sensed by mortals (unless if they are strong enough), that's all there is to it. Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan aren't so powerful because they have god ki, they are so powerful because... they just are, like all the other Super Saiyan transformations. They just have god ki on top of that.

Anyway, the idea is that Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG that they had in their base form at some point before the tournament against U6. This explains why their base form went back to regular levels & the golden Super Saiyan forms returned, but it also explains why their base forms are so powerful at some points in the story, while in other points they aren't. In the anime, they still use their base with SSG power form whenever it's necessary, while in the manga it appears they have abandoned it since they've learned how to transform into Super Saiyan Gods (something they can't do in the anime).

[ekrolo2]

Base Goku never has God ki, stop spreading this everyone and do your homework. In the anime, everyone could sense SS Goku's ki even though he had the power of Super Saiyan God. In both the manga & anime, Trunks could sense base Black's ki, who apparently also had the power of Super Saiyan God.

The two base theory is about Goku (and Vegeta) having two base forms, a regular base, and a base with the power of Super Saiyan God, but without god ki.

God ki isn't some special power that makes everyone super-strong, get this idea out of your heads. The Kaios & the Kaioshins have god ki. Fucking Dende has god ki. It simply can't be sensed by mortals (unless if they are strong enough), that's all there is to it. Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan aren't so powerful because they have god ki, they are so powerful because... they just are, like all the other Super Saiyan transformations. They just have god ki on top of that.

Anyway, the idea is that Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG that they had in their base form at some point before the tournament against U6. This explains why their base form went back to regular levels & the golden Super Saiyan forms returned, but it also explains why their base forms are so powerful at some points in the story, while in other points they aren't. In the anime, they still use their base with SSG power form whenever it's necessary, while in the manga it appears they have abandoned it since they've learned how to transform into Super Saiyan Gods (something they can't do in the anime).

I'll believe Goku's Base is at all what it was in the BoG & F arcs when it does something impressive that's comperable to his fight against pre-Golden Freeza. Seems to me they just retconned away Goku's SSG boost and have him around Fat Boo's level from training so hard, not anything else.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'll believe Goku's Base is at all what it was in the BoG & F arcs when it does something impressive that's comperable to his fight against pre-Golden Freeza. Seems to me they just retconned away Goku's SSG boost and have him around Fat Boo's level from training so hard, not anything else.

But base Goku, Vegeta, Copy-Vegeta, and Goku Black have all displayed power far greater than Fat Boo's. And it isn't a retcon, Black proved that.

[ekrolo2]

I'll believe Goku's Base is at all what it was in the BoG & F arcs when it does something impressive that's comperable to his fight against pre-Golden Freeza. Seems to me they just retconned away Goku's SSG boost and have him around Fat Boo's level from training so hard, not anything else.

But base Goku, Vegeta, Copy-Vegeta, and Goku Black have all displayed power far greater than Fat Boo's. And it isn't a retcon, Black proved that.

And in the recent episodes, Goku needs SS to take on Bergamo when the three brothers don't seem much stronger than one another IE stronger than Fat Boo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And in the recent episodes, Goku needs SS to take on Bergamo when the three brothers don't seem much stronger than one another IE stronger than Fat Boo.

Basil was shit compared to Boo, and only came a little close to him after eating that drug. We also don't know exactly how the three brothers compare to each other.

[Tectorman]

Base Goku never has God ki, stop spreading this everyone and do your homework. In the anime, everyone could sense SS Goku's ki even though he had the power of Super Saiyan God. In both the manga & anime, Trunks could sense base Black's ki, who apparently also had the power of Super Saiyan God.

The two base theory is about Goku (and Vegeta) having two base forms, a regular base, and a base with the power of Super Saiyan God, but without god ki.

God ki isn't some special power that makes everyone super-strong, get this idea out of your heads. The Kaios & the Kaioshins have god ki. Fucking Dende has god ki. It simply can't be sensed by mortals (unless if they are strong enough), that's all there is to it. Super Saiyan God & Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan aren't so powerful because they have god ki, they are so powerful because... they just are, like all the other Super Saiyan transformations. They just have god ki on top of that.

Anyway, the idea is that Goku & Vegeta learned how to control the power of SSG that they had in their base form at some point before the tournament against U6. This explains why their base form went back to regular levels & the golden Super Saiyan forms returned, but it also explains why their base forms are so powerful at some points in the story, while in other points they aren't. In the anime, they still use their base with SSG power form whenever it's necessary, while in the manga it appears they have abandoned it since they've learned how to transform into Super Saiyan Gods (something they can't do in the anime).

Two things:

One) You're entirely correct about there being a difference between the power of SSG and the "can't be sensed by not-gods" quality of SSG. I usually try to specify it as God Ki Power versus God Ki Nature, or godly ki or god-ish ki or god-remnant ki. But I don't think anyone on this thread meant to be specifically saying SbGs couldn't be sensed. It was probably just an unfortunate misuse of shorthand.

Two) Dende does not have God Ki. Ditto King Kai (though I don't remember if anyone mortal ever sensed the Supreme Kai's or the Elder Kai's energy). They have the status of being in the celestial order which affords them the ability to perceive gods when their power otherwise wouldn't be enough. But Goku could teleport to King Kai's planet (which would only be possible if he could sense King Kai). And when Super Buu had killed everyone on the Lookout and Dende was also presumed dead, Gohan was able to tell he wasn't by sensing that he was still alive.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

One) You're entirely correct about there being a difference between the power of SSG and the "can't be sensed by not-gods" quality of SSG. I usually try to specify it as God Ki Power versus God Ki Nature, or godly ki or god-ish ki or god-remnant ki. But I don't think anyone on this thread meant to be specifically saying SbGs couldn't be sensed. It was probably just an unfortunate misuse of shorthand.

It's a really bad misuse because it is total misinformation. Saying that SbG Goku has God ki automatically means his ki can't be sensed by mortals, which is 100% false.

Two) Dende does not have God Ki. Ditto King Kai (though I don't remember if anyone mortal ever sensed the Supreme Kai's or the Elder Kai's energy). They have the status of being in the celestial order which affords them the ability to perceive gods when their power otherwise wouldn't be enough. But Goku could teleport to King Kai's planet (which would only be possible if he could sense King Kai). And when Super Buu had killed everyone on the Lookout and Dende was also presumed dead, Gohan was able to tell he wasn't by sensing that he was still alive.

The Super anime established that if a mortal is at a level close to a god, he can sense his ki, which is why SbG Goku & Vegeta can sense Beerus' & Whis' ki even though they aren't gods. Goku & Gohan were much stronger than Kaio & Dende respectively, which is why they could sense their ki.

[Black Hawk]

Two) Dende does not have God Ki. Ditto King Kai (though I don't remember if anyone mortal ever sensed the Supreme Kai's or the Elder Kai's energy). They have the status of being in the celestial order which affords them the ability to perceive gods when their power otherwise wouldn't be enough. But Goku could teleport to King Kai's planet (which would only be possible if he could sense King Kai).

I was always under the impression that, whenever teleporting to Kaiō's planet, Gokū either does so by sensing Bubbles' energy and locking on to it, or by locking on to Kaiō's deity energy due to having so greatly surpassed Kaiō that he can sense Kaiō's energy despite Kaiō's status as a deity. After all, when Gokū first reached Kaiō's planet, he mistook Bubbles for him, indicating that, at the time, he could not sense Kaiō's energy.