How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by dbgtFO » Mon May 08, 2017 3:48 pm

dragon boss z wrote:He is supposed to be be weaker than Namek Frieza, the end.
I can roll with that :D

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon May 08, 2017 3:58 pm

Like it or not, Tagoma was extraordinarily strong by the old standards, on a level beyond Piccolo. He could range from Cell to lower forms of Majin Buu.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by dragon boss z » Mon May 08, 2017 11:50 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Like it or not, Tagoma was extraordinarily strong by the old standards, on a level beyond Piccolo. He could range from Cell to lower forms of Majin Buu.
Gohan was weak as hell during that arc and they forgot how strong Piccolo was.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue May 09, 2017 6:59 am

dragon boss z wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Like it or not, Tagoma was extraordinarily strong by the old standards, on a level beyond Piccolo. He could range from Cell to lower forms of Majin Buu.
Gohan was weak as hell during that arc and they forgot how strong Piccolo was.
Also doesn't change that Freeza got strong as hell and Death Beamed SS Gohan, comparable if not above Piccolo in base form.

Without clear inferences about Piccolo being weaker, we can't infer that Gohan was as weak as his Buu Saga self or that Piccolo was any less than he was in the original series, merely below his Ultimate self. Hell, the fact that he did comparable damage to Ginyu-Tagoma, whom had brought out that body's full power, as a SS as SS Gotenks did with a nutshot headbutt, is already proof of how strong he was.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Israelite Wolfman » Tue May 09, 2017 11:15 am

I'll try to make some sense into the Resurrection 'F' power scaling, as I see it: Let's say that Mystic Gohan who fought Super Buu is the 100%, then BoG Gohan should be 90% and RoF Gohan should be in the region of 30% of his prime as he's still stronger than Piccolo but STILL far away from his prime.

Now for the actual rankings of the characters in RoF:

Gohan = X
Shisami = 0.25X
Piccolo = 0.3X
Gotenks (base) = 0.4X
SSJ Gotenks = 20X
Tagoma = 3X
Ginyu in Tagoma's body = 3.5X
SSJ Gohan = 50X
First Form Frieza = 75X

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by dragon boss z » Tue May 09, 2017 11:59 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Like it or not, Tagoma was extraordinarily strong by the old standards, on a level beyond Piccolo. He could range from Cell to lower forms of Majin Buu.
Gohan was weak as hell during that arc and they forgot how strong Piccolo was.
Also doesn't change that Freeza got strong as hell and Death Beamed SS Gohan, comparable if not above Piccolo in base form.

Without clear inferences about Piccolo being weaker, we can't infer that Gohan was as weak as his Buu Saga self or that Piccolo was any less than he was in the original series, merely below his Ultimate self. Hell, the fact that he did comparable damage to Ginyu-Tagoma, whom had brought out that body's full power, as a SS as SS Gotenks did with a nutshot headbutt, is already proof of how strong he was.
Considering Piccolo beat ssj2 Gohan recently and almost beat final for Frost, it seems pretty clear he was nerfed in RoF. The same attack that took skinny Roshi out (without killing him) also took out Piccolo.
And in the RoF movie Gohan implied he wasn't even much stronger than Namek Goku. Which makes sense because neither of them could go ssj easily.
It's dumb but it seems like everyone was nerfed to make Frieza and his soldiers seem more threatening. Which is another reason why 18 and Buu probably weren't used. They are too strong and would bring down the already low tension.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sat May 13, 2017 1:11 am

Going by Crunchyroll's subs, Gohan says "He's probably as strong as me when I was at my best." I think it's pretty clear he's not at that level even with Ginyu's power boost or else Gohan never would have been able to beat him. Let alone taking him down in two hits. Is there some way Gohan could have misjudged his strength? The other characters can sense his ki too, but nobody else draws that comparison.

It's just a badly written line and best ignored, I think. The rest of the episode checks out okay without it: Tagoma is stronger than Piccolo and base Gohan, but he's not as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan who is still able to utilize some of his potential despite being out of shape.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by ryan s » Sat May 13, 2017 9:54 pm

Israelite Wolfman wrote:
ryan s wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:
Actually, no.
Super sayan gohan who is way weaker than Mystic gohan two-shotted Ginyu-Tagoma while holding back.

On topic, around even with super perfect cell, below CG Gohan and significantly below any version of Majin buu
great refutation, really compelling clearly was well thought out and had substance ........ sarcasm
Considering DBS Episode 88 where Piccolo actually had to put him on the right mental track for going SSJ then SSJ 2 then Ultimate Form, there is no doubt Gohan never tapped BACK into his Mystic form/power again after the Kid Buu Saga, so Tagoma is CONFIRMED TO BE BENEATH Mystic Gohan.

I believe Gohan's decrease in power had began around the time of Battle of Gods, then he COLLAPSED in Resurrection 'F' to the lower single digit billions (still above Piccolo for some reason), to get stronger by DBS Episode 30 when he trains with Piccolo (who now is also in the tier he could faze Tagoma) yet not enough as Piccolo can give him a run for his money, then quit training after the Champa Arc and collapsed again when Future Trunks meets him (stating: "Gohan have lost that enormous power he had when he bested Cell" = lower than SSJ2 Kid Gohan at his base), then he resumes training with Piccolo after seeing how strong were Goku Black and Zamasu - maybe hitting his Fusion Saga Prime when Future Trunks and Future Mai sets off (DBS Episode 67); but then dropping back in strength to the regions where Watagash possessing Barry Kahn could force him into going SSJ (even if suppressing himself once going there), at the Zeno Exhibition Match with Lavenda I'd say he is in the realms of Mystic level but probably still far from his prime when he fought Super Buu as he wasn't able to take down Piccolo who presumably never surpassed Mystic Gohan of that time.
he was talking about his buu saga mystic state as Gohan thought that was his current best

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:51 am

In the latest episode of DBS Goku's punch didn't even phase the metal lizard guy from U9 because of his steel skin. However the trio de danger were portrayed as the strongest fighters in U9 but base Goku was able to hurt them with punches. This may mean that Tagoma tanking Piccolo's punch may be more because of his steel like skin from being beaten up everyday opposed to his ki power. This was even said in the episode. So this means Tagoma doesn't have to be much stronger, if at all, than Piccolo.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:10 am

so, in fnf piccolo says that tagoma is strong as gohan in his prime, so tagoma is strong as buu's saga mystic gohan

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by LowRyder2005 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:19 am

p-hyvo wrote:so, in fnf piccolo says that tagoma is strong as gohan in his prime, so tagoma is strong as buu's saga mystic gohan
This is a rumor that keeps re-surfacing routinely, which is however 90% incorrect. It's very clear from the original dialogue that Gohan thinks that, when fully rested, he and Tagoma would be comparable.

Super has also clarified the issue further: Tagoma isn't near Ultimate Gohan, given that Gohan himself is not as strong as his old "Ultimate" form up until episode 95 and beyond. His base form and Super Saiyan form are just that; there's no leeway for "weakened Ultimate Gohan" or "Super Saiyan Ultimate" theories, if they ever made sense to begin with.

Therefore: Tagoma is in-between a fresh base Gohan from ROF and the same fresh Super Saiyan Gohan. Given how much, much stronger the stamina-deprived Gohan was in Super Saiyan form - easily two-shotting the somewhat stronger Tagoma-Ginyu - Tagoma is on the very, very lower end of the spectrum, comparable to Gohan's base form but leaps and bounds below Super Saiyan Gohan (who's again, many, many, many times weaker than Ultimate self, not even mentioning out of shape).

That being said, it needs to be added that Super adds the headscratcher of the weighted Piccolo being swatted away, but it can still be more easily justified in hindsight.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:49 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:
p-hyvo wrote:so, in fnf piccolo says that tagoma is strong as gohan in his prime, so tagoma is strong as buu's saga mystic gohan
This is a rumor that keeps re-surfacing routinely, which is however 90% incorrect. It's very clear from the original dialogue that Gohan thinks that, when fully rested, he and Tagoma would be comparable.

Super has also clarified the issue further: Tagoma isn't near Ultimate Gohan, given that Gohan himself is not as strong as his old "Ultimate" form up until episode 95 and beyond. His base form and Super Saiyan form are just that; there's no leeway for "weakened Ultimate Gohan" or "Super Saiyan Ultimate" theories, if they ever made sense to begin with.

Therefore: Tagoma is in-between a fresh base Gohan from ROF and the same fresh Super Saiyan Gohan. Given how much, much stronger the stamina-deprived Gohan was in Super Saiyan form - easily two-shotting the somewhat stronger Tagoma-Ginyu - Tagoma is on the very, very lower end of the spectrum, comparable to Gohan's base form but leaps and bounds below Super Saiyan Gohan (who's again, many, many, many times weaker than Ultimate self, not even mentioning out of shape).

That being said, it needs to be added that Super adds the headscratcher of the weighted Piccolo being swatted away, but it can still be more easily justified in hindsight.
My justification is that Piccolo did too much babysitting and got soft,lol. I mean after a month of not training with Whis Goku got hurt by a bullet, whelp, that's Super for you.

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Re: How strong exactly was Tagoma in Dragon Ball Super

Post by Israelite Wolfman » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:55 am

ryan s wrote:
Israelite Wolfman wrote:
ryan s wrote:great refutation, really compelling clearly was well thought out and had substance ........ sarcasm
Considering DBS Episode 88 where Piccolo actually had to put him on the right mental track for going SSJ then SSJ 2 then Ultimate Form, there is no doubt Gohan never tapped BACK into his Mystic form/power again after the Kid Buu Saga, so Tagoma is CONFIRMED TO BE BENEATH Mystic Gohan.

I believe Gohan's decrease in power had began around the time of Battle of Gods, then he COLLAPSED in Resurrection 'F' to the lower single digit billions (still above Piccolo for some reason), to get stronger by DBS Episode 30 when he trains with Piccolo (who now is also in the tier he could faze Tagoma) yet not enough as Piccolo can give him a run for his money, then quit training after the Champa Arc and collapsed again when Future Trunks meets him (stating: "Gohan have lost that enormous power he had when he bested Cell" = lower than SSJ2 Kid Gohan at his base), then he resumes training with Piccolo after seeing how strong were Goku Black and Zamasu - maybe hitting his Fusion Saga Prime when Future Trunks and Future Mai sets off (DBS Episode 67); but then dropping back in strength to the regions where Watagash possessing Barry Kahn could force him into going SSJ (even if suppressing himself once going there), at the Zeno Exhibition Match with Lavenda I'd say he is in the realms of Mystic level but probably still far from his prime when he fought Super Buu as he wasn't able to take down Piccolo who presumably never surpassed Mystic Gohan of that time.
he was talking about his buu saga mystic state as Gohan thought that was his current best
No way, jose, there is no implication Tagoma equals Mystic Gohan, all Gohan said after being pierced in the chest with a dirty ki blast (while he was busy with Shisami) by "the new & evil Tagoma" was: "I think he MAY BE as strong as me in my best" (Source: [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]), but his much weaker than Ultimate Form Super Saiyan back in RoF was more than enough to handle Ginyu whose battle exprience was enough to take Tagoma's powers beyond their natural limits (Jaco noted he was "drawing more power out of Tagoma's body than Tagoma did").

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