Goku's Morality

[Yasai9001]

I have a reason personally as to why Goku is so forgiving in Dragon Ball Z. A recent discussion sparked my interest quite a bit and I just wanted to spit a few thoughts coming from my perspective. We all remember how in Dragon Ball Goku didn't hesitate to kill people such as Tambourine and even had Tao get a grenade to the face. Nor did he hold back against Piccolo and killed him. If Kid Goku was like this ever in Dragon Ball Z, he wouldn't have been so reluctant to kill those such as Freeza, Raditz, Vegeta and Cell.

But the reason of why he changed has to come in when he trained with Kami. The first time he left under Kami's wing and fought Piccolo, he seemed rather far too nice than usual. And against Raditz he genuinely believed that his brother was being honest when he apologized for being so mean to him and his son. So basically I am saying that I believe if Kami had not influenced Goku so much, he'd be the same goofy character, but with the same killer instinct. What do you all think?

[TheZFighter]

I'm not so sure personally due to the lack of actual evidence.

The examples you listed in Dragon Ball, Tambourine, Tao and Piccolo 1.0, all had something in common. They killed friends/ allies of Goku's (Krillin, Bora, Master Roshi, Chiaotzu).

Are there any other examples of pre-Kami training Goku killing people that were not part of a revenge mission?

[dbgtFO]

Are there any other examples of pre-Kami training Goku killing people that were not part of a revenge mission?

Killed Pterodactyl(it held Bulma captive).
Killed Bear Thief(it threatened the lives of Goku and co.).
Killed Red Ribbon Army grunts mostly in self-defence and after some threatened Bulma(except that one guy who was defending the Head Quarters).
Killed Black, who surprise, surprise tried to kill Goku with his mecha, after Goku told him to give up.

So Goku ends up killing quite a bunch of people, but it's always in self-defence, except for that one RRA guy, who we don't get to see, if he attacked Goku first before getting killed.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It would a bit surprising if it was God's influence that pushed Goku into not killing anymore. He admits to barely being involved in Goku's training, and that he came down to participate in the tournament as Shen because he knew Goku didn't have it in him to kill Piccolo after Mr. Popo ran his mouth about their life connection, despite God WANTING Goku to off him.

So honestly, if you want to say Goku learned to be less of a killer while training up at God's Temple, I would push that it was Mr. Popo who influenced him.

[nickzambuto]

Goku's character evolution is extremely subtle and natural. He matures naturally as he learns more about the world, there's no single instance that resulted in Goku swearing off killing, he simply grew to understand mercy and the value of life, compared to when he was a little boy and didn't seem to even understand the concept (when his grandpa died, Goku thought he just turned into the four star ball)

Personally when watching the series in order, Goku's change doesn't seem unnatural to me at all.

[B]

I feel as if the premise behind the original question is flawed. All the examples given for Goku's "killer instinct" are special circumstances. Tambourine is a dick who murdered Goku's best friend; Tao was a cockroach who kept coming back and in that moment where Goku kicks the grenade back, I doubt he was consciously thinking "time for him to die"(plus... this doesn't kill him anyway). Very rarely is Goku going for a kill when he happens to kill somebody. All the examples where he lets someone live also have their reasons(Raditz tricks him; Planet Namek is about to explode; Vegeta is left in a state where physically can't retaliate; the entire Cell debacle is Goku, misguidedly, looking towards a future without him).

I think that all these instances paint Goku's morality as straightforward as they can; he's a guy that enjoys the sporting aspect of fighting and he occasionally gets entangled in matters that end up helping people in the long run, but that's not his concern at the moment. Tambourine and Freeza are the only two instances where you could say he's out for blood, but again, it's for selfish reasons; they disrespected Kuririn.

This topic of conversation is always a peculiar one because Goku, and the Dragon World he lives in, is structured in such a greater black-and-white matter than the real world. Goku doesn't necessarily value human life... but he also doesn't not value it. He works with what his opponents give him. if they're just stubborn like Freeza, he finishes them off. If they can take a hint like Vegeta, that will do. If Vegeta had some surge of power as opposed crawling to his pod, I don't think Goku would've had a problem with Kuririn cutting him down with the sword. Maybe a little disappointed he couldn't fight that strong guy again, but he'd get over it and look for a new opponent.

[SaintEvolution]

Goku really likes to fight cause of his Saiyan blood, and his personality can be selfish many times because of that. But his heart is good and he doesn't like to see weak people being crushed.

However, alongside with the series, as the Dragon Balls ressurrected most of the cast many and many times, I think that not only Goku, but a big part of the cast lost some careful for life and stuff, since it's possible to fix and revive everything and everyone.

[LightBing]

The way I see it Kami's selfish personality influenced Goku to be even more selfish.
Remember this is the guy who unleashed Piccolo Daimao on Earth, because he wanted to be Kami and he only took responsibility hundreds of years later. Even then he looked for an out in the form of the Mafuba, instead of asking someone to put a bullet in his head and own it.

Goku saw himself with a huge gap towards his only rival Tenshinhan, Kami was getting older and wasn't fit as rival for Goku. Goku fearing to be alone on Earth without anyone to challenge him decided to spare Piccolo. He repeated this process like we know quite a few times.

When Goku was younger he was more immature but more importantly the World was there for the taking. Until he met Daimao and Kami, he hadn't reached Earth's ceiling, interesting and challenging opponents were always around the corner. When he saw it's end, selfishness was the choice.

[Cipher]

Goku has a few transition points as far as his morality is concerned.

The first, and perhaps most obvious, is that he becomes more merciful and respectful of life after his training with God and Popo (whether it's related to their influence or not). There's a stark divide between Goku's willingness to kill outmatched opponents before and afterward. Consider the difference between his approach to Red Ribbon grunts and the Ginyu Special Force, for example.

The other is the general trajectory toward being more and more selfish and reckless as the level of his power increases. While young Goku generally doesn't think twice about taking lives in the name of anything vaguely resembling self-defense, he seems to be more altruistic and sensitive to repercussions than his older self. Less merciful on a smaller scale, more conscientious on a larger one. As it becomes clear he's the strongest person on Earth, and soon after, the known universe, he begins making increasingly reckless decisions in the name of seeking challenge (letting Piccolo escape, letting Vegeta escape, letting Freeza escape, choosing not to pre-empt the Androids, and finally both being complicit in Boo's revival and gambling on the younger generation's ability to stop him). Repercussions affecting innocents and loved ones become a thought to be pushed aside until there's immediate, tangible danger. This second stage provides the character flaw that will see Goku all the way through to his ending with Oob in the manga, which can hopefully provide a healthier outlet. It's made most obvious as a flaw during his conversations with Kuririn (asking him to spare Vegeta) and Kaio (demanding to be left to fight Freeza on Namek).

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I figured when he killed in DB, it was always more in self defense, it wasn't until Piccolo showed up that he showed some intenet on killing an enemy. Then after his training with Kami, I think he has mercy if the villian is willing to take it. However even he does limits like Frieza pushing him until he (Unsuccesfully) killed him.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

If Kid Goku was like this ever in Dragon Ball Z, he wouldn't have been so reluctant to kill those such as Freeza, Raditz, Vegeta and Cell.

There is a context to all of those instances though. He spared Raditz because he gave up and I don't think Goku kills his opponents after they submit (or pretend to). He was also there because he was more concerned about getting Gohan back, not to challenge Raditz. Goku has only killed more so in Dragonball out of rage, and did so more over overpowering his opponents decisively, rather than actually killing them to kill them. Most of his satisfaction comes from the quality of a fight he gets, more so after he accepted Saiyan Warrior pride.

Him not killing Freeza is also because he fought to beat his ego, or "dethrone" him in a way as opposed to wanting to kill him for revenge. When he did that, and as Freeza got weaker Goku lost interest, as the fight was in his favor by Freeza's weakness and he didn't like that. That ties back to him letting go of enemies he defeats rather than him wanting to vengefully kill them beyond it. That too came after accepted his Pride and was more concerned about challenging Freeza's own ego as he got throughout the battle. People give Goku flack for not killing Freeza for sole revenge, when that was never his actual goal. With Vegeta he spared him, because Vegeta inspired him by the fact that he never fought anyone as strong as himself before and the fact that he was the same race as him. I assume it was like fighting himself on the outside and he liked it. Vegeta also technically didn't kill anyone of his friends. Nappa did, so he didn't have any vitriol for Vegeta directly.

With Cell it was more of the same thing. It wasn't good vs. evil there. It was Goku challenging who Cell was. The "perfect" warrior, as he boasted and Goku wanted to test himself against that notion Cell had. Thats why he was so calm against him and friendly enough to give Cell the Senzu. Like Vegeta, Cell didn't technically kill any of his friends personally so he didn't take the fight as personally. Cell also agreed not to kill anyone in exchange for that promised challenge from Goku's reputation. The Cell games was all sport. It just got out of control near the end where Cell just wanted to kill them all.

With Kid Goku, he was just less disciplined and still getting the feel of that pressure of the threats he now got used to by Z.

[Yasai9001]

If Kid Goku was like this ever in Dragon Ball Z, he wouldn't have been so reluctant to kill those such as Freeza, Raditz, Vegeta and Cell.

There is a context to all of those instances though. He spared Raditz because he gave up and I don't think Goku kills his opponents after they submit (or pretend to). He was also there because he was more concerned about getting Gohan back, not to challenge Raditz. Goku has only killed more so in Dragonball out of rage, and did so more over overpowering his opponents decisively, rather than actually killing them to kill them. Most of his satisfaction comes from the quality of a fight he gets, more so after he accepted Saiyan Warrior pride.

Him not killing Freeza is also because he fought to beat his ego, or "dethrone" him in a way as opposed to wanting to kill him for revenge. When he did that, and as Freeza got weaker Goku lost interest, as the fight was in his favor by Freeza's weakness and he didn't like that. That ties back to him letting go of enemies he defeats rather than him wanting to vengefully kill them beyond it. That too came after accepted his Pride and was more concerned about challenging Freeza's own ego as he got throughout the battle. People give Goku flack for not killing Freeza for sole revenge, when that was never his actual goal. With Vegeta he spared him, because Vegeta inspired him by the fact that he never fought anyone as strong as himself before and the fact that he was the same race as him. I assume it was like fighting himself on the outside and he liked it. Vegeta also technically didn't kill anyone of his friends. Nappa did, so he didn't have any vitriol for Vegeta directly.

With Cell it was more of the same thing. It wasn't good vs. evil there. It was Goku challenging who Cell was. The "perfect" warrior, as he boasted and Goku wanted to test himself against that notion Cell had. Thats why he was so calm against him and friendly enough to give Cell the Senzu. Like Vegeta, Cell didn't technically kill any of his friends personally so he didn't take the fight as personally. Cell also agreed not to kill anyone in exchange for that promised challenge from Goku's reputation. The Cell games was all sport. It just got out of control near the end where Cell just wanted to kill them all.

With Kid Goku, he was just less disciplined and still getting the feel of that pressure of the threats he now got used to by Z.

I'd say you probably give the best explantion. Thanks for your opinion on the matter

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

If Kid Goku was like this ever in Dragon Ball Z, he wouldn't have been so reluctant to kill those such as Freeza, Raditz, Vegeta and Cell.

There is a context to all of those instances though. He spared Raditz because he gave up and I don't think Goku kills his opponents after they submit (or pretend to). He was also there because he was more concerned about getting Gohan back, not to challenge Raditz. Goku has only killed more so in Dragonball out of rage, and did so more over overpowering his opponents decisively, rather than actually killing them to kill them. Most of his satisfaction comes from the quality of a fight he gets, more so after he accepted Saiyan Warrior pride.

Him not killing Freeza is also because he fought to beat his ego, or "dethrone" him in a way as opposed to wanting to kill him for revenge. When he did that, and as Freeza got weaker Goku lost interest, as the fight was in his favor by Freeza's weakness and he didn't like that. That ties back to him letting go of enemies he defeats rather than him wanting to vengefully kill them beyond it. That too came after accepted his Pride and was more concerned about challenging Freeza's own ego as he got throughout the battle. People give Goku flack for not killing Freeza for sole revenge, when that was never his actual goal. With Vegeta he spared him, because Vegeta inspired him by the fact that he never fought anyone as strong as himself before and the fact that he was the same race as him. I assume it was like fighting himself on the outside and he liked it. Vegeta also technically didn't kill anyone of his friends. Nappa did, so he didn't have any vitriol for Vegeta directly.

With Cell it was more of the same thing. It wasn't good vs. evil there. It was Goku challenging who Cell was. The "perfect" warrior, as he boasted and Goku wanted to test himself against that notion Cell had. Thats why he was so calm against him and friendly enough to give Cell the Senzu. Like Vegeta, Cell didn't technically kill any of his friends personally so he didn't take the fight as personally. Cell also agreed not to kill anyone in exchange for that promised challenge from Goku's reputation. The Cell games was all sport. It just got out of control near the end where Cell just wanted to kill them all.

With Kid Goku, he was just less disciplined and still getting the feel of that pressure of the threats he now got used to by Z.

I'd say you probably give the best explantion. Thanks for your opinion on the matter

No problem. Thats just how I see it as of Kai (rather than the old dub that makes it more so solely out of Goku being the "good guy" and people often over-reference those changes; even though I like them to their own contexts). The only line that somewhat wrenches itself into my interpretation of Goku's morality is just when he said he wanted Freeza to "suffer" for killing Krillin. I don't remember if he said that in the Japanese version, but at best I can handwave that as just talking out of blind rage, and not an actual declaration.