I Guess Anyone Can Become Much Stronger Through Training Now?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I don't have a problem with the non-Saiyan characters training to get stronger, I have a problem with Super rushing it into an instant gain just for the sake of the plot. It started with Freeza's 4 months and it got worse with Buu's 2 hour training. "Potential" is often used as this infinite boost that people apply to the characters in order to rationalize this, but I hate it. In that aspect its lazy writing, in a story aspect its Super cutting corners. People like to see the characters struggle to find new heights, not just jog for a few hours and now you're got tier.

With Piccolo, I always had trouble deducing how strong he is supposed to be because he literally never changes visually to show what he gains. I know the humans don't either but they at least got more muscular and Tenshinhan learned stronger attacks from his DB days to his Cell Arc presence. Thats when the training aspect gets abstract and irksome.

[Zephyr]

When Goku first became the Super Saiyan God, these blue waves emanated from his body:


The marketing and advertising for Battle of Gods vaguely referred to "the common sense of Z being violated". What wasn't told to us explicitly was that this was the "Plot Convenience Wave". This wave altered the very fabric of "common sense" that very consistently dictated the laws of Dragon Ball's universe. Now gains and feats have lost all sense of purpose.

Speculation as to why seems to center around Gohan, who had recently been blessed by Kaioshin meddling, taking part in it, simultaneously overcharging the blue waves (giving them their reality-warping nature) and inhibiting his power afterward almost completely (explaining his incredible slump during Resurrection of F).

[buutenks]

Ofc they can, but so far no one apart from Golden Freeza surpassed ssgss by training really hard. So yes, old characters who were very weak in Z(humans)can now possibly surpass Cell and maybe even Buu(tho I doubt it), but they aren't touching ssgss level. Its similar to Z, except for us, the Buu saga was the apex of DB Power for such a long time, its hard to place it in the fodder section.

[BlueBasilisk]

I seriously don't see why Kuririn competing with Base Gohan is a problem, the Earthlings should never be far behind the Base Saiyans to begin with given the fact that the latter can transform anyway.

This is why the massive power creep in Z was a problem, I say good riddance. Let the Earthlings compete with Base Saiyans, as long as they're not stomping Super Saiyans or god level characters there shouldn't be any sort of problem.

I have to agree with this. I feel like the Frieza saga really screwed the pooch when it gave the Saiyans massive free gains through zenkai and the ability to turn into Super Saiyans. It should have been one or the other, not both. I also don't mind that Super is skipping over the actual training and just showing us the results. We saw how many dozens of episodes of training in Dragon Ball and Z? The audience knows what they do, and extended training sequences would just feel like padding for time unless the characters are learning something new, like Goku and Vegeta learning ki control from Whis. I'll gladly take this over the Cell Games or Buu saga where half the cast sits on the sidelines lamenting how useless they are because only Saiyans matter.

[theherodjl]

Ofc they can, but so far no one apart from Golden Freeza surpassed ssgss by training really hard. So yes, old characters who were very weak in Z(humans)can now possibly surpass Cell and maybe even Buu(tho I doubt it), but they aren't touching ssgss level. Its similar to Z, except for us, the Buu saga was the apex of DB Power for such a long time, its hard to place it in the fodder section.

Trunks surpassed SSJB...though his reasoning was even more BS, all you gotta do is be a Saiyan, get really mad unlocking a pseudo-SSJB form, absorb the hope of everyone around you, and then you got a power matching Beerus/SSJB Vegetto-tier.

[Big Green The Yoshi]

Anyone can surpass their limits with enough training. Hell, Base Goku's stronger than Fat Boo at the End Of Z.

[Dbzfan94]

Anyone can surpass their limits with enough training. Hell, Base Goku's stronger than Fat Boo at the End Of Z.

It's funny how people thought Gt was absurd with having GT Goku so much stronger than everyone. It was implied in his fight with Rildo than base Gt Goku stronger than SSJ3 Z Goku. And then we have Super with Base Goku with god ki being Super Vegetto level.

[Dbzfan94]

I don't have a problem with the non-Saiyan characters training to get stronger, I have a problem with Super rushing it into an instant gain just for the sake of the plot. It started with Freeza's 4 months and it got worse with Buu's 2 hour training.

Exactly this. This is my problem too. Imho it hurts Z in some ways because Master Roshi could've easily defeated Buu by Super's logic just by training for a day.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I don't have a problem with the non-Saiyan characters training to get stronger, I have a problem with Super rushing it into an instant gain just for the sake of the plot. It started with Freeza's 4 months and it got worse with Buu's 2 hour training.

Exactly this. This is my problem too. Imho it hurts Z in some ways because Master Roshi could've easily defeated Buu by Super's logic just by training for a day.

What makes it horrible is that it completely deflates the spirit of the original series from the DB tournaments to the Cell saga, where it was characters actually having limits and struggling to overcome a wall and their mortality just to go further than thought possible. Its why the ROST is so significant, because it took SS and shown it required an entirely new plain of mental endurance and metaphysical reflection just to go beyond what was thought to already be limitless. Thats when going SS2 actually mattered, because characters were searching for ways to get better. With Super, they can just be as strong as they need to be on demand, with no real work put into it. Its just all these stupid shortcuts that people still handwave away as "potential" or "they're a prodigy". All the characters can't be prodigies. And having the power within you apparently doesn't make them"geniuses". Goku is a genius because he actually thinks, and understands his body's physics and limits, therefore him building on them (in the Cell Saga) is genius. He wasn't taught it, he learned from cause and effect. In Super, you're considered a "genius" is you just happen to ascend on the fly. Like Caulifla just going SS2 on the spot, while they barely knew what SS1 was. Its ridiculous. Now shes stronger than Cell, but has never fought Freeza. There just isn't any real earned pay off in Super, and I am tired of the "potential" cop-out. That should be a trope in of itself.

I also agree with the other user that said BoG ruined it, because it has no real known attributes at all and with its abstract power, now all the gains from it will be abstract, and so will the measures the other characters have to be written up to, just to keep up. I also really hate the ritual in itself as well. Why is it so easy? And why is a ritual that is so abstract that its exclusive to Saiyans? What about it is really related to them being Saiyans? It was incredibly dumb. Its why SS4 will always be the superior final form for a Saiyan to me. Its just the sum of everything they are and their boost makes sense. SSG is literally nothing but astrological mumbo-jumbo to me.

[Dbzfan94]

What makes it horrible is that it completely deflates the spirit of the original series from the DB tournaments to the Cell saga, where it was characters actually having limits and struggling to overcome a wall and their mortality just to go further than thought possible. Its why the ROST is so significant, because it took SS and shown it required an entirely new plain of mental endurance and metaphysical reflection just to go beyond what was thought to already be limitless. Thats when going SS2 actually mattered, because characters were searching for ways to get better. With Super, they can just be as strong as they need to be on demand, with no real work put into it. Its just all these stupid shortcuts that people still handwave away as "potential" or "they're a prodigy". All the characters can't be prodigies. And having the power within you apparently doesn't make them"geniuses". Goku is a genius because he actually thinks, and understands his body's physics and limits, therefore him building on them (in the Cell Saga) is genius. He wasn't taught it, he learned from cause and effect. In Super, you're considered a "genius" is you just happen to ascend on the fly. Like Caulifla just going SS2 on the spot, while they barely knew what SS1 was. Its ridiculous. Now shes stronger than Cell, but has never fought Freeza. There just isn't any real earned pay off in Super, and I am tired of the "potential" cop-out. That should be a trope in of itself.

I also agree with the other user that said BoG ruined it, because it has no real known attributes at all and with its abstract power, now all the gains from it will be abstract, and so will the measures the other characters have to be written up to, just to keep up. I also really hate the ritual in itself as well. Why is it so easy? And why is a ritual that is so abstract that its exclusive to Saiyans? What about it is really related to them being Saiyans? It was incredibly dumb. Its why SS4 will always be the superior final form for a Saiyan to me. Its just the sum of everything they are and their boost makes sense. SSG is literally nothing but astrological mumbo-jumbo to me.

100% agree. To me, the "potential/prodigy" thing was fine in Z when it was just Gohan (and Goten/Trunks to a lesser degree) but in Super EVERYONE is suddenly this insanely gifted prodigy that just has bottomless inner power and it quickly loses its appeal to the point of becoming really lazy.

Like honestly going by Freeza's new potential, all he had to do 1 or 2 pushups while waiting for the Ginyu Force and he would've stomped SSJ Goku.

Don't get me started on SSJG. I don't hate many thing from Dragon Ball, but I hate the ritual for that form.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

To me, the "potential/prodigy" thing was fine in Z when it was just Gohan (and Goten/Trunks to a lesser degree) but in Super EVERYONE is suddenly this insanely gifted prodigy that just has bottomless inner power and it quickly loses its appeal to the point of becoming really lazy.

I think people just don't understand what "potential" was. It isn't a power in itself. It was just people praising the speculative heights Gohan would be able to go to if he didn't suppress himself so much. His "potential" was just measured by what he allowed himself to do when he had those rage boosts (which also isn't universal, but a trait for him because Gohan couldn't control his ki). People run to Goten and Trunks a lot as well as their way to justify the U6 Saiyans being OP or taking Toriyama's statement out of context where he said they evolved differently. Beyond youtube headcanon videos, he just said they evolved without tails. Not that they're all stronger than U7 Saiyans. I hate when I hear headcanon like this based on just blind hype. It is lazy because DB doesn't feel like a martial arts show anymore.

Like honestly going by Freeza's new potential, all he had to do 1 or 2 pushups while waiting for the Ginyu Force and he would've stomped SSJ Goku.

It kind of makes his need to be immortal laughable now. He was paranoid about someone overthrowing him because he was just so lazy that he didn't want to have to actually do any slight work to effortlessly everyone in the universe. So rather than that, he thought he needed to kill all the Saiyans.

[Puaru]

The only two characters from the original manga that I'm cool with the idea of them being able to approach anything remotely similar to God level powers without actually gaining God ki are Gohan and Freeza. Gohan because the notion that he had a higher potential for power than virtually any other character in the series was always something that was either hinted or explicitly stated (when Gohan goes to fight Majin Boo Goku tells him "Get angry. When you get angry there is nobody in the universe who is stronger than you"). Meanwhile Freeza was always stated as a prodigy and/or freak of nature who was simply born with an unbelievable power that he didn't even need to learn to releaze, his power just came naturally to him. So with that in mind, I don't mind the idea that he could reach unbelievable heights if he actually did start training and consciously aiming for even greater power.

But Future Trunks and 17 gaining the God-tier powers just by either an out-of-nowhere never-explained transformation or regular ass training? Get outta here.