Is the power level linear or not ?

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Borros
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Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by Borros » Sun May 14, 2017 9:35 am

I to create this topic to continue the conversation which we have to begin.
Speedster wrote:No. We can calculate exponential functions of quantities with units of measure as long as they these are multiplied or divided by a constant which also has units resulting to the cancelation of the units within the exponential. For example in the Arrhenius equation the variable in the exponent is the energy over the temperature (E/T), measured in J/K, but it is divided by the Boltzmann constant, k, (which has units J/K) so the units cancel out.
Yes but in your message you spoke only of crossing the unity by an exponential function or a logarithm without divided the variable by a reference value to cancel the unit in the exponential. Especially that in your reasoning, we ignore what is the base of the exponential which you use.

But if you divide the exhibitor by a reference value then your exponential has no more unity and the result becomes also absurd. What that means a strength or a speed which has no unity ? It doesn't mean anything. Thus you are obliged to multiply the exponential by another value so as to obtain a unity for the speed and the strength. And that begins to make many unknowns for a manga that aims to be so simple as Dragon Ball.

Moreover, if I do not make a mistake, when an individual dies in Dragon Ball, his strength of fight is supposed to be in zero units (he died, thus he has more energy, he cannot move any more, he does not have strength anymore).
But if we follow this reasoning, then it mean that a dead man (in zero unit) thus possesses a strength and a speed ? Because the exponential of zero is always equal to 1 (e^0 = 1). It would be a little bit strange.

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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun May 14, 2017 4:12 pm

Trying to analyze power levels to a level of complexity beyond 'the guy with the higher PL is stronger' will result in nothing but a headache. Trust me, I've tried.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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GigaDrill
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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by GigaDrill » Sun May 14, 2017 10:45 pm

Trying to create a function for power levels would likely require something that has both exponential and logarithmic rates of increase across different intervals; it's certainly not worth the effort and would only apply to what has already been shown with no bearing whatsoever on the future whims of Toei and Toriyama.

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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by cheddarsword » Mon May 15, 2017 1:09 am

Vegeta wrote:Power levels are bullshit!
Power levels are meaningless. Examples.

Kid Goku took bullets to the head from Bulma's pistol and merely complained that they hurt, whereas Adult Farmer Goku was grazed by a bullet and bled from it.

Goku has, throughout his life, TANKED multiple beam type attacks, yet in his SSB form, he is pierced by a laser gun.

Freeza mentions how he'll be able to reach a power level of over 1,000,000 within 4 months of training, yet back when he fought on Namek, he was in the hundreds of millions at least.

Any attempt to understand power levels would be similar to running in circles. So for your own sake, save the math for trying to figure out who took out how many fighters in the up coming DBZ take on Super Smash Bros. that everyone's calling the Tournament of Power.

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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by Gog » Mon May 15, 2017 1:48 am

cheddarsword wrote:
Vegeta wrote:Power levels are bullshit!
Power levels are meaningless. Examples.
They really arent, power levels have always been the main driving force in a fight come Saiyan Arc. Even though later on we never actually know what the power level is of characters like Cell, Buu, etc. We do know that there are hidden numbers going unseen behind the background.

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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by Speedster » Mon May 15, 2017 2:50 am

Dear Borros,

It would help if you didn't keep misinterpreting what I say. It would also help if you paid more attention to your physics and maths classes as you seem to lack basic knowledge.

(1) I spoke of an exponential function in the way anyone who has studied science is speaking – i.e. a function involving an exponential. That, of course, extents beyond the basic exp(x). For example y=A*exp(b*x)+c is an exponential function. If you didn't know this then perhaps your knowledge on the matter is "google level" where you just googled "What is exponential function?" and got back e^x. Also bear in mind that if x has units that are cancelled out by b, the constant A will introduce the units back of whatever you are calculating. Also remember that y and x don't need to have the same units.

(2) What I use as the independent variable, x, is not the strength or the speed or whatever, but the battle power level. In other words the strength or speed, y, is an exponential function (or at least some other non-linear function with constantly positive gradient) of the power level, x. Not the other way around. Also for all intents and purposes battle power levels can be unitless to begin with and even if they weren’t see point (1) above. If you still don't get it you may consult the following Youtube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSo-ecn8238

(3) The overall relationship governing the actual strength (y) and power levels (x) may well be piece-wise as well, i.e. have different functions within different domains (probably 100fold ones for simplicity). For example:
y=f1(x) for 5 ≤x<500
y=f2(x) for 500 ≤x<50K
y=f3(x) for 50K ≤x<5M
and so on

The above will allow for a highly exponential function within the first range where you can go from human level (PL=5) to moon busting level (PL=500) (an increase in destructive capacity by a 100 septillion times) but for a less exponential one for the next 100fold increase in power level (where you only get a mere 1000x increase in destructive capacity - moon level to Earth level).

Best regards,
Speedster

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Borros
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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by Borros » Mon May 15, 2017 12:25 pm

It would help if you didn't keep misinterpreting what I say. It would also help if you paid more attention to your physics and maths classes as you seem to lack basic knowledge.
Do not worry about my Physics and Mathematics classes.
(1) I spoke of an exponential function in the way anyone who has studied science is speaking – i.e. a function involving an exponential. That, of course, extents beyond the basic exp(x). For example y=A*exp(b*x)+c is an exponential function.
There, it is clearer, you nuance your words.

When we speak about the exponential function, the one who occurs us naturally it is f(x) = e^x.
How wanted you that I guess that you speak about a function which involving an exponential ? Sorry if I badly interpreted your words, but your message was ambiguous.
If you didn't know this then perhaps your knowledge on the matter is "google level" where you just googled "What is exponential function?" and got back e^x.
The "google level" is not very appropriate, sorry.
Also bear in mind that if x has units that are cancelled out by b, the constant A will introduce the units back of whatever you are calculating.
Yes I know. For example, if the variable x expresses himself in second (dimension of time: T), then the dimension of variable b will be 1/T that is there T^(-1).
Also remember that y and x don't need to have the same units.
Yes.
(2) What I use as the independent variable, x, is not the strength or the speed or whatever, but the battle power level. In other words the strength or speed, y, is an exponential function (or at least some other non-linear function with constantly positive gradient) of the power level, x. Not the other way around. Also for all intents and purposes battle power levels can be unitless to begin with and even if they weren’t see point (1) above. If you still don't get it you may consult the following Youtube video:
You said that the power level measured by scooter can be without units ??

I saw the video, the reasoning is good but I doubt hardly that Akira Toriyama is to break with any function mathematics to say that the relation between power of fight and physical abilities is not linear.

When we were reflected, the story indicated that Kaioken multiplies the strength of fight by two and Kaio explained that the same Kaioken could allow Goku to double his power. Thus according to the manga, have twice more units involve to be twice as powerful (if I do not a mistake).
(3) The overall relationship governing the actual strength (y) and power levels (x) may well be piece-wise as well, i.e. have different functions within different domains (probably 100fold ones for simplicity). For example:
y=f1(x) for 5 ≤x<500
y=f2(x) for 500 ≤x<50K
y=f3(x) for 50K ≤x<5M
and so on

The above will allow for a highly exponential function within the first range where you can go from human level (PL=5) to moon busting level (PL=500) (an increase in destructive capacity by a 100 septillion times) but for a less exponential one for the next 100fold increase in power level (where you only get a mere 1000x increase in destructive capacity - moon level to Earth level).
The problem it is because in the manga there is a lot of incoherence of genre. You know, as I told it to you, I do not think that Toriyama is to complicate the life to calculate the necessary heat or kinetic energy to destroy the moon with Kamehameha or of a simple punch.

It in had to make that for the feeling, Dragon Ball is a manga which aims at a readership of young teenager which are not all capable of understanding the physical and mathematical notions which you use.

I do not say that your way of arguing is false, quite the opposite, she is logical, you have a good scientific approach, but I think that we cannot unfortunately apply the laws of physics to calculate the power of the heroes. Because Dragon Ball is a manga of science fiction, that is not the reality. It is incomparable.

I think that I am going to stop here, because like that was said higher, this kind of discussion is a waste of time. I do not say that against you Speedster, I say simply that we complicate things for not much.

Peace be upon you. :wink:

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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by Desassina » Mon May 15, 2017 1:40 pm

Multipliers and power levels are only good for when you design a Dragon Ball RPG. Otherwise, you'll be participating in pedantic arguments, where everyone's headcanon is the absolute truth. Even when designing a game, you should not strain yourself with the most complicated calculations, but keep them intuitive for playing and debugging.

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Re: Is the power level linear or not ?

Post by Tsufuru » Fri May 19, 2017 12:46 pm

LMAO these big esseys about power levels hahahaha.
"a function involving an exponential" holy shit, the reason power levels fail is Akira Toriyama cant do shit with numbers.
this guy made krillin after 3 years of training weaker going by numbers.
and idk if it was toyo's or toriyamas idea but one of them made ssj manga vegeta post whis training unable to lift 1000 tons, but it looks more like a Toriyama thing.
you really think he is able to keep power levels consistent? there is nothing complicated about them , they are simply wrong.

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