Why I believe Raditz's level is 1200 instead of 1500

[LightBing]

[spoiler]I had already written and posted my response before I reflected on it and went back and edited my clarification, which is why I didn't hold onto it as a draft.

My point about not being able to read the books is a valid one, I think. Unlike the manga which has an official release in most logical regions, and you can read them in their entirety (front to back, all sidebars, all notes, all illustrations, etc. in context with each other), the same can't be said for these guide books. I mince no words when I talk about how pedantic strength debate / power level folks tend to be, yet the... it's not really "irony"... of the situation is that they're doing so with information they can't examine in its entirety when it comes to guide book material. That it's second-hand information isn't necessarily the problem or worst offense; it's the contextual understanding (or lack there-of). To most folks, these guide book statements are one-off sentences they're pulling from a purposefully-awkward-and-literal translation Jake did so people would stop hounding him about it. No real knowledge of what else is in the book, why it's written that way, how it's written, for what reason with regard to what section it's in, who the actual people and companies are that produced the books, etc. This is a gross over-generalization, because of course some people do actually own the books and at least try to track down the page and section its in for a little more context... but it's not many, and it's not the same as just reading the manga.

Again, I'm not saying "don't question" and "don't ask" and "don't disagree". I'm saying: be realistic about it. I think we're all saying that, but I'm trying to say it a little more forcefully because I've been watching this community drown itself in strength debate pedantry and negativity. I don't think it's in a healthy place right now. I'm in the business of expanding fandom, while (from my perspective) strength debate people seem to be in the business of pushing people away. (Then again, people probably think the same about me.)

I'm still genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I asked (and highlighted in bold). I never seem to actually get answers back on that stuff any time I ask, any way I ask. Everything is just dismissed outright because someone's already made up their mind. No-one's interested in an actual thought exercise that doesn't already line up with what they hold to be true. I don't agree with everything Kaboom says and thinks, but at least he gives other people the time of day and hears them out. Sometimes. Most of the time. I think. I hope.

I truly do want to hear your thoughts on what I asked. I want to get a better understanding of the "how" and "why" strength debate people think what they think and hold the beliefs they hold with regard to this supplemental material.[/spoiler]

I think the language problem is at his core the same be it for the manga, anime, guides, pamphlet's, everything really. Like you said access to certain material is much more difficult. Still if people truly want to have a conversation, the details will have to come forth. Be it bringing up the panel where a quote was said, or the section of the guide where a number was provided.
So really if there's a problem it's people. If people don't want to hear the whole story then maybe they are not worth the time.

I understand where you're coming from regarding the "strength debate people". However it's not just them, there's frustrating individuals in every place of the fandom. Be it "my favorite character is better than yours" people or "the anime is better than the manga" people, etc. The last example is in full force currently in Super's manga thread.
This to say that generalizing is negative, it's all about the individuals.
I can sympathize that you probably moderated countless discussions and understandably your tolerance is much lower for these type of debates.

Regarding the questions in bold:

• I don't care if the guides are made by one person or a group, I don't even care the company who's behind them. All that matters is the content and if the author(s) defended their idea. I hold the guides to the same standard as myself and a fellow Kanzenshuu member posting in the power level thread.
• I hold Mr.Toriyama to a higher standard than everyone else regarding Dragon Ball. That said, the manga was made in a context and if he made a guide twenty years later, he probably wouldn't remember his own logic from before. Honestly it's tricky and I wouldn't gobble up everything, yet he still has the right to retcon his creation.
  It would be an open discussion.

If I have any qualm about supplemental material is that, in general, people hold it to a higher standard. This makes difficult to scrutinize it.
I believe the guides are many times misleading and therefore untrustworthy, generally speaking. I rather people first think for themselves and then look for validation. No need for dogmas.

Not to say there's right's and wrongs regarding this debate. Yet Mr.Toriyama applied logic to this. He didn't pull this out of his ass, like people like to say as they do an hand-wave motion. He's didn't do this with a calculator and there's no denying some inconsistencies; arguing he put no thought into this is close to insulting.
We can determine a range of his arguably flexible logic. Thinking about it is fun, otherwise what's the point. Unfortunately lately it's less fun when people masquerade discussions that really are monologues.

I might have gone on a tangent. My apologies.

[dragonball0900]

Well, this shows that according to Vegeta, a battle power of 1,330 is slightly above a BP of 1,000. Couldn't Nappa consider the same?

In the series they used to round up the numbers. If we go by how many numbers are between 1,000 and 1,330 in comparison to let's say 20,000 and 26,000, there are obviously not many in the former than just a few hundreds. That's what Vegeta meant when he said "a power slightly above 1,000". However, if we go by how many times stronger is 1,330 than 1,000 in a battle, a multiplication instead of an addition, then a difference between 1,000 and 1,330 in comparison to a difference between 20,000 and 26,000 are practically the same.

I'm pretty sure Nappa thought the same too. But later with the Saibaman fight, both Nappa and Vegeta were implying that a level that can defeat a 1,200 power is a level that can defeat Raditz too, and that Raditz and the Saibaman were on the same level, something that the 1,500 number fails to prove.

I don't think it can be simply look upon as "an addition". I am sure nobody with a BP of 700 would define someone who did a transformation in which the power jumped from 300 to ~650 as a "slight power up", despite the "jumping" being only of a few hundreds. Raditz also considered Goku and Piccolo going from ~300 to ~400 as something useless and that they could add hundreds degrees that would change nothing. So I think it's just a case of "Vegeta is so far above that power that it makes no difference"...it'd, imo, change his perception torwards powers that don't even affect him.

That's what I was trying to say. Vegeta was so far above the others, that no matter how much two powers that are less than 10% of his power are, it's just useless for him. About my meaning to "addition", I was referring to the numbers themselves, not the power. As you said, the power boost is huge for someone who is around that level, like your example with the 700 against someone who jumped from 300 to 650. That is indeed a giant boost, but for Vegeta it would be trash. That's why I think they just felt the need to round up the numbers. With the 1,200 and 1,500, Vegeta did say they were comparing the Saibaman to Raditz' level, indicating that if someone defeats the Saibaman, they would defeat Raditz too, and we know that a x1,25 difference is enough to defeat an opponent, then Raditz being anywhere between 1,200 and 1,300 is fine.

[ahill1]

That's what I was trying to say. Vegeta was so far above the others, that no matter how much two powers that are less than 10% of his power are, it's just useless for him. About my meaning to "addition", I was referring to the numbers themselves, not the power. As you said, the power boost is huge for someone who is around that level, like your example with the 700 against someone who jumped from 300 to 650. That is indeed a giant boost, but for Vegeta it would be trash. That's why I think they just felt the need to round up the numbers. With the 1,200 and 1,500, Vegeta did say they were comparing the Saibaman to Raditz' level, indicating that if someone defeats the Saibaman, they would defeat Raditz too, and we know that a x1,25 difference is enough to defeat an opponent, then Raditz being anywhere between 1,200 and 1,300 is fine

But Nappa is also far above 1,500. Don't you think he could consider 1,200 as rivaling 1,500, considering Vegeta don't see much difference between 1,000 and 1,300? Maybe Nappa never saw Raditz fighting a Saibaimen and was only going off by both battle powers, in which we would also be back to "how Nappa see someone of '1500' compared to someone of 1200".

Like I said, I have Raditz lower than what the Daizenshuu has, but I think Vegeta's line is interesting and could open some new thoughts.

[dragonball0900]

That's what I was trying to say. Vegeta was so far above the others, that no matter how much two powers that are less than 10% of his power are, it's just useless for him. About my meaning to "addition", I was referring to the numbers themselves, not the power. As you said, the power boost is huge for someone who is around that level, like your example with the 700 against someone who jumped from 300 to 650. That is indeed a giant boost, but for Vegeta it would be trash. That's why I think they just felt the need to round up the numbers. With the 1,200 and 1,500, Vegeta did say they were comparing the Saibaman to Raditz' level, indicating that if someone defeats the Saibaman, they would defeat Raditz too, and we know that a x1,25 difference is enough to defeat an opponent, then Raditz being anywhere between 1,200 and 1,300 is fine

But Nappa is also far above 1,500. Don't you think he could consider 1,200 as rivaling 1,500, considering Vegeta don't see much difference between 1,000 and 1,300? Maybe Nappa never saw Raditz fighting a Saibaimen and was only going off by both battle powers, in which we would also be back to "how Nappa see someone of '1500' compared to someone of 1200".

Like I said, I have Raditz lower than what the Daizenshuu has, but I think Vegeta's line is interesting and could open some new thoughts.

I have been revisiting Vegeta's quote now and I have to say that just because Vegeta said the power levels were slightly above 1,000 it doesn't mean 1,300 and 1,000 were not that much of a difference. That's just because of the way of how low the numbers were, Vegeta wasn't caring about the power differences at the time. However, with the Saibaman, Vegeta did clarify that the Saibaman were around the same level as Raditz, and Nappa was also agreeing with Vegeta about the Saibaman being on the same level. It also doesn't make sense that Raditz is 1,500 because of how Gohan damaged him a lot with just a power level of 1,307. And the story did tell us about how Raditz was on the same level as a Saibman. A 1,307 battle level managing to damage someone with a 1,500 power level can't really work that much.

[VegettoEX]

Just wanted to say thanks for the follow-ups to my questions. I got some good insight there, and I want you to know I appreciate it!

I still fundamentally disagree on placing the official works on the same level as any given internet forum poster. This ties back to my points from before about respect and lack of understanding on who actually made these books. I say this as (1) a random internet forum poster myself, and (2) someone who didn't actually write those books and has no vested interest in their success or relevance.

Again, I think it's fine and worthwhile to question things and think about mistakes that have been made. Hell, we did precisely this on our latest podcast episode, looking at Viz's translation of Dragon Ball Super manga volume 1 (specifically its interview), discussing mistakes and lack of contextual awareness in the official product. To me, that's a little different than looking for "mistakes" in things like battle powers and scaling estimates: one is actual words from actual human beings about real life, while the other is fictional analysis/extrapolation.

[coola]

Sorry, i should be more specific, i also dont think it is exact 1200, but way below 1500, beside what Nappa said about similar power level between Radditz and Saibaman, Gohan attack wouldnt weaken Radditz that much if he was close to 1500, surprise attack or not. At least thats what i think

[dragonball0900]

Sorry, i should be more specific, i also dont think it is exact 1200, but way below 1500, beside what Nappa said about similar power level between Radditz and Saibaman, Gohan attack wouldnt weaken Radditz that much if he was close to 1500, surprise attack or not. At least thats what i think

Agreed. This is exactly the same opinion I have based on the statements on the series. Raditz might not be 1,200, it could be a little more, but he's certainly way below 1,500.

[Kaboom]

I just want to reiterate the important message that sentiments of "I don't think this fits" or "that's not the way I see it" do not equate to the tidbit in question actually being wrong.

If Toriyama wrote Nappa's line as, "but the Saibaimen have powers of 1,200 each! Even Raditz at 1,350 wasn't much stronger than that," but the guidebooks listed Raditz at 1,500... then the guidebooks would be wrong. Because that would be an actual, factual contradiction with the original source, which logically would take priority unless there was some blatant word-of-god going on.

But that's not the case. Where does the manga say that a 1,500 power can't be hurt by a 1,300 power or killed by a focused 1,300 attack? Where does the manga say that "rivaling" constitutes no more than an X% power gap? Where does the manga say that Raditz's power level can't be 1,500 because of any of the above or any other reason?

It doesn't. Fans say those things, through fan-theories that are at the very best based on stuff from the manga. Which is the part that puzzles me. Fan-theories are well and good when they're applied to fans' personal power level lists or fanfiction or what have you. But that's a very far cry from fan-theories somehow invalidating official material, or even material straight from the author himself.

Let me apply the concept to something other than power level numbers. I personally subscribe to an old theory that Super Saiyan 3 is an unnatural form which requires special circumstances to attain, like Goku training while dead and Gotenks being a Fusion. That's based on observable trends in the original manga, and to this day even stuff like Super hasn't outright contradicted it. All in all it's a very solid theory.

But what if something suddenly did contradict it? What if a guidebook article or a Q&A with Toriyama happened to expand upon SS3 and firmly stated, "you don't really need anything special to gain SS3, just a lot of training and meditation." What happens then? Do I get to claim, "that's bullcrap, Toriyama/<guidebook> is wrong, because that doesn't fit with my fine-crafted theory which comes straight from the manga itself," as if that's my call? No, of course not. That'd be totally bonkers.

I hope I'm getting the underlying point across here.

[ShadowBardock89]

"that's bullcrap, Toriyama/<guidebook> is wrong, because that doesn't fit with my fine-crafted theory which comes straight from the manga itself!"

My opinion on this entire thread.
I'm sticking with guidebooks for the numbers unless Toriyama comes out with something that retcons them.
Given his track record in recent years, either he does or doesn't come out with new source material.

[Big Green The Yoshi]

Raditz was stated to be stronger than the Saibamen. I have Raditz at 1,350.

[Commodore Krevin]

I just want to reiterate the important message that sentiments of "I don't think this fits" or "that's not the way I see it" do not equate to the tidbit in question actually being wrong.

If Toriyama wrote Nappa's line as, "but the Saibaimen have powers of 1,200 each! Even Raditz at 1,350 wasn't much stronger than that," but the guidebooks listed Raditz at 1,500... then the guidebooks would be wrong. Because that would be an actual, factual contradiction with the original source, which logically would take priority unless there was some blatant word-of-god going on.

But that's not the case. Where does the manga say that a 1,500 power can't be hurt by a 1,300 power or killed by a focused 1,300 attack? Where does the manga say that "rivaling" constitutes no more than an X% power gap? Where does the manga say that Raditz's power level can't be 1,500 because of any of the above or any other reason?

It doesn't. Fans say those things, through fan-theories that are at the very best based on stuff from the manga. Which is the part that puzzles me. Fan-theories are well and good when they're applied to fans' personal power level lists or fanfiction or what have you. But that's a very far cry from fan-theories somehow invalidating official material, or even material straight from the author himself.

Let me apply the concept to something other than power level numbers. I personally subscribe to an old theory that Super Saiyan 3 is an unnatural form which requires special circumstances to attain, like Goku training while dead and Gotenks being a Fusion. That's based on observable trends in the original manga, and to this day even stuff like Super hasn't outright contradicted it. All in all it's a very solid theory.

But what if something suddenly did contradict it? What if a guidebook article or a Q&A with Toriyama happened to expand upon SS3 and firmly stated, "you don't really need anything special to gain SS3, just a lot of training and meditation." What happens then? Do I get to claim, "that's bullcrap, Toriyama/<guidebook> is wrong, because that doesn't fit with my fine-crafted theory which comes straight from the manga itself," as if that's my call? No, of course not. That'd be totally bonkers.

I hope I'm getting the underlying point across here.

I suppose my issue is nothing from watching the anime itself compels you to assume Raditz is 1500. I don't believe that is a controversial statement but if you disagree I'd welcome to hear your input on the matter.

Further starting from the stance Raditz is 1500 and demanding evidence to the contrary instead of evidence to support the guide's assertion strikes me as backwards bending a higher canon source to a secondary one.

Again I'm happy to hear counter-arguments and alternative viewpoints.

In regards to your SS3 I feel your argument is inapt. How SS3 operates is comparatively far murkier than power levels. There's a lot more wiggle room to say any Saiyan could achieve it if they so desired, which admittedly is my personal interpretation, than reinterpreting adhoc Raditz's line saying he's vulnerable to a power level of 1330 to make it consistent with what some guide says.

-Respectfully, Sonofccn

[LightBing]

[spoiler]I just want to reiterate the important message that sentiments of "I don't think this fits" or "that's not the way I see it" do not equate to the tidbit in question actually being wrong.

If Toriyama wrote Nappa's line as, "but the Saibaimen have powers of 1,200 each! Even Raditz at 1,350 wasn't much stronger than that," but the guidebooks listed Raditz at 1,500... then the guidebooks would be wrong. Because that would be an actual, factual contradiction with the original source, which logically would take priority unless there was some blatant word-of-god going on.

But that's not the case. Where does the manga say that a 1,500 power can't be hurt by a 1,300 power or killed by a focused 1,300 attack? Where does the manga say that "rivaling" constitutes no more than an X% power gap? Where does the manga say that Raditz's power level can't be 1,500 because of any of the above or any other reason?

It doesn't. Fans say those things, through fan-theories that are at the very best based on stuff from the manga. Which is the part that puzzles me. Fan-theories are well and good when they're applied to fans' personal power level lists or fanfiction or what have you. But that's a very far cry from fan-theories somehow invalidating official material, or even material straight from the author himself.

Let me apply the concept to something other than power level numbers. I personally subscribe to an old theory that Super Saiyan 3 is an unnatural form which requires special circumstances to attain, like Goku training while dead and Gotenks being a Fusion. That's based on observable trends in the original manga, and to this day even stuff like Super hasn't outright contradicted it. All in all it's a very solid theory.

But what if something suddenly did contradict it? What if a guidebook article or a Q&A with Toriyama happened to expand upon SS3 and firmly stated, "you don't really need anything special to gain SS3, just a lot of training and meditation." What happens then? Do I get to claim, "that's bullcrap, Toriyama/<guidebook> is wrong, because that doesn't fit with my fine-crafted theory which comes straight from the manga itself," as if that's my call? No, of course not. That'd be totally bonkers.

I hope I'm getting the underlying point across here.[/spoiler]

I would like that you turned your post upside-down. Replace "fans" with guides, trade the places of 1500 power to 1300 power, etc... This exercise is just for perspective.

Now I'm going to quote Kanzenshuu itself, regarding the Danzenshuu, the most prominent guides: "It should be noted that although Akira Toriyama is listed as the author for all of the Daizenshuu, he actually had very little involvement with the production of their content, if any at all. Toriyama makes it quite clear in most of his Daizenshuu introductions that “they” (Shueisha) are responsible for putting these together, and he is often graciously humble in thanking them for all their hard work in sorting through his exhaustive series."

Tell me what's the difference, between me a random person analysing the manga and a Shuiesha employer(s)? Maybe at some points Mr.Toriyama gave them insight and there's other factors. Of course it isn't as simple at this; my point still stands.

Now if as a fan, it's a theory that's not directly proven in the manga. As a guide, it's also a theory that's not directly proven in the manga. It doesn't matter that it's official, it's still an interpretation and as such, if we want to have an adult conversation, needs to have it's points justified as all theories need to.
That's the foundation of this thread, the OP disagreed with the guide and provided points to refute it. You followed suit and refuted the points of the OP and provided further context and information.

I completely understand VegettoEX post, I outdated the guides superficially and wasn't specific. Your post I don't.

Holding it to different standards like you did in your post is damaging to a discussion.

[LuckyCat]

Both the guidebooks and fan theories can be considered secondary sources to the manga. It's just that one is a more persuasive secondary source. All Kaboom is saying is Shueisha's official guidebook naturally sounds more persuasive than, let's say, LuckyCat's power level theorem.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Kaboom's point is not about putting official statements and fan theories in different standards. He is focusing on individuals who have their own theories in higher regard in relation to official statements, which contradicts the idea that they should be even.

[Kaboom]

I think Kaboom's point is not about putting official statements and fan theories in different standards. He is focusing on individuals who have their own theories in higher regard in relation to official statements, which contradicts the idea that they should be even.

Exactly.

There's nothing wrong with "I don't agree with this official number, therefore I don't use it in my <insert fan-project here>."

But there's a lot wrong with "I don't agree with this official number, therefore it's factually wrong and so is anything else that uses it."

[LightBing]

I think Kaboom's point is not about putting official statements and fan theories in different standards. He is focusing on individuals who have their own theories in higher regard in relation to official statements, which contradicts the idea that they should be even.

Exactly.

There's nothing wrong with "I don't agree with this official number, therefore I don't use it in my <insert fan-project here>."

But there's a lot wrong with "I don't agree with this official number, therefore it's factually wrong and so is anything else that uses it."

That's not how I interpreted your post, at all. My bad I guess.

Anyway how does one perceive the difference? I went through the thread and saw nothing that would make me think that. The only exception are those more critical of the guidebooks(like myself), but these people justified their view that they just wanted backed arguments regardless of the source.

[buutenks]

IIRC, kid Gohan when he headbutted Raditz had a power level of 1370 and Raditz was severly injured. So i doubt he has a PL of 1500. He's proly more along the lines of 1,250-1,300 or so.

[ShadowBardock89]

IIRC, kid Gohan when he headbutted Raditz had a power level of 1370 and Raditz was severly injured. So i doubt he has a PL of 1500. He's proly more along the lines of 1,250-1,300 or so.

He caught Raditz off guard, much like Piccolo blasting Nappa in the back or Sorbet shooting Goku. Piccolo at his weakened state hurt Nappa, but didn't kill him and Sorbet was MUCH weaker than Goku, but managed blast a hole in him. Raditz was not prepared for a 4-year old toddler bursting through his ship and charging at him. He probably was still in shock over what was unfolding right before him. Otherwise, don't you think he would have dodged Gohan like Piccolo's first Makankōsappō? He fully believe the guide is right that Raditz's level was 1500, but Gohan's actions caught him off guard and Raditz could not react in time to prepare for Cohan's charge.

[dragonball0900]

IIRC, kid Gohan when he headbutted Raditz had a power level of 1370 and Raditz was severly injured. So i doubt he has a PL of 1500. He's proly more along the lines of 1,250-1,300 or so.

He caught Raditz off guard, much like Piccolo blasting Nappa in the back or Sorbet shooting Goku. Piccolo at his weakened state hurt Nappa, but didn't kill him and Sorbet was MUCH weaker than Goku, but managed blast a hole in him. Raditz was not prepared for a 4-year old toddler bursting through his ship and charging at him. He probably was still in shock over what was unfolding right before him. Otherwise, don't you think he would have dodged Gohan like Piccolo's first Makankōsappō? He fully believe the guide is right that Raditz's level was 1500, but Gohan's actions caught him off guard and Raditz could not react in time to prepare for Cohan's charge.

The thing is, Raditz was severly injured. He couldn't even get free from a much weaker Goku. If Raditz was 1,500 then that attack from Gohan would damage him, sure, but it wouldn't leave him to the point where he's not able to get free from Goku, or being able to walk slowly suffering in pain. As I said, a difference between 1,200/1,300 with 1,500, is the same as the difference between 24,000/26,000 with 30,000, the manga indirectly states that 1,500 and 1,200 can't be around the same level, and Nappa and Vegeta were comparing the Saibaman with Raditz' power, and if someone defeats a Saibaman, that someone is able to defeat Raditz. If Yamcha has a battle power of 1,480 and manages to defeat the Saibaman, then the 1,500 reading is contradictory for me.

[ShadowBardock89]

IIRC, kid Gohan when he headbutted Raditz had a power level of 1370 and Raditz was severly injured. So i doubt he has a PL of 1500. He's proly more along the lines of 1,250-1,300 or so.

He caught Raditz off guard, much like Piccolo blasting Nappa in the back or Sorbet shooting Goku. Piccolo at his weakened state hurt Nappa, but didn't kill him and Sorbet was MUCH weaker than Goku, but managed blast a hole in him. Raditz was not prepared for a 4-year old toddler bursting through his ship and charging at him. He probably was still in shock over what was unfolding right before him. Otherwise, don't you think he would have dodged Gohan like Piccolo's first Makankōsappō? He fully believe the guide is right that Raditz's level was 1500, but Gohan's actions caught him off guard and Raditz could not react in time to prepare for Cohan's charge.

The thing is, Raditz was severly injured. He couldn't even get free from a much weaker Goku. If Raditz was 1,500 then that attack from Gohan would damage him, sure, but it wouldn't leave him to the point where he's not able to get free from Goku, or being able to walk slowly suffering in pain. As I said, a difference between 1,200/1,300 with 1,500, is the same as the difference between 24,000/26,000 with 30,000, the manga indirectly states that 1,500 and 1,200 can't be around the same level, and Nappa and Vegeta were comparing the Saibaman with Raditz' power, and if someone defeats a Saibaman, that someone is able to defeat Raditz. If Yamcha has a battle power of 1,480 and manages to defeat the Saibaman, then the 1,500 reading is contradictory for me.

This was the moment I was talking about with Piccolo blasting Nappa
And of course, this gem:


I just realized this thread devolved similar to this one:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=23379