Why I believe Raditz's level is 1200 instead of 1500

[coola]

Daizenshuu state his PL is 1500, but, in both manga and anime, Nappa clearly say "Saibaman PL is 1200, in terms of raw power, they are equal to Radditz" and there is more evidence to support it, in my opinion:
- Gohan PL was 1307 when he hit Radditz, even if he was caught by surprise, hit wouldnt weaken him that much, if he was 1500
- Same with Piccolo attack, Radditz should be able to deflect Makankosappo, as it was 1330.

[Kaboom]

- The Japanese word that Nappa used to compare the Saibaimen to Raditz doesn't really mean "exactly, mathematically equal," it means more along the lines of "comparable" or "on the same general level." Toriyama himself said in his notes to the anime staff that Raditz's power level was higher, so that's where the 1,500 figure comes from.

- This is an entirely arbitrary quality here and doesn't mean much. Being somewhat stronger than someone doesn't automatically mean you can't be hurt by them, even critically so. 1,300 vs 1,500 isn't even much of a difference anyway.

- Same idea, except in addition to being charged up and powerful, the Makankosappo is also said to have both destructive and piercing power. So kind of like the Kienzan, it's exactly the type of attack that would be able to punch right through its target even if that target was still more powerful.

[dragonball0900]

I actually have to agree with coola on this one. People believe that Raditz it's 1,500, but that I respectfully think that it wouldn't make sense because Gohan hurted him a lot, to the point where he couldn't defeat Goku when he went behind him before both being killed. Even though 1,500 and 1,300 is not that much of a difference, it's still a good difference when it comes to fighting, and Vegeta vs Kaioken X2 Goku proved that.

Raditz also didn't know that the Makankosappo could destroy anything, he was shown to be scared of the power the attack has, and he decided to dodge it because of that.

About the comparison with the Saibaman, they did compare them with Raditz, and that they were around the same level, and 1,500 doesn't fit because 1,500 and 1,200 are indeed far ahead in terms of power, a x1.25 of power difference, the same as Monster Zarbon vs Vegeta (first fight), and it is shown in the fight with Yamcha as well. Yamcha with a power level of 1,480 defeated a Saibaman easily. If Raditz was 1,500, then that comparison with the Saibaman wouldn't be fair at all because Raditz would defeat a Saibaman easily just like how Yamcha did.

[LightBing]

1500 to 1300 is a difference of 14%, in Dragon Ball that's massive. dragonball0900 already made a bunch of good points. I think it's correct to put Raditz between 1200 - 1300.

I'm always repeating this but guides aren't trustworthy. Just because you put a stamp on it saying it's official doesn't make it correct.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Daizenshuu state his PL is 1500, but, in both manga and anime, Nappa clearly say "Saibaman PL is 1200, in terms of raw power, they are equal to Radditz" and there is more evidence to support it, in my opinion:
- Gohan PL was 1307 when he hit Radditz, even if he was caught by surprise, hit wouldnt weaken him that much, if he was 1500
- Same with Piccolo attack, Radditz should be able to deflect Makankosappo, as it was 1330.

Goku was shot through the chest by a ray gun when he was surprised. Something that should NEVER hurt him. The guns power level is much lower than a 200 difference. Explain to me why Gohan couldn't hurt him badly catching him off guard.

Also as the other poster explained the word doesn't actually mean equal.

[ahill1]

I agree that 1,500 seems too much. I generally have Raditz at 1,250, which seems more accurate IMO. It was said the Saibaimens' powers were on par with Raditz's and I don't agree with a Saibaimen being on par with Yamcha, who should have a noticeable advantage over them.

Saibaimens -- 1,200
Raditz -- 1,250
Yamcha -- 1,320

Something like this IMO.

[Rubens]

If in the manga Nappa states that the saibaimen's battle power of 1200 was comparable to Raditz then that's it. Personally, I believe Raditz was around 1,300 and I have him roughly of par with Yamcha; one other thing that set the creatures apart from Raditz (besides power) was also their limited intelligence, so the gap doesn't need to be that wide.

I'm always repeating this but guides aren't trustworthy. Just because you put a stamp on it saying it's official doesn't make it correct.

I couldn't agree more. I rarely discuss battle powers lately because lots of people follow the guides (and even lousy pamphlets) so religiously they overlook the fact that they're unreliable, contradictory - not only with the actual manga source as also between guides - and produced with very little to no contribution from Toriyama himself which means the information, in particular battle powers, in those came from the interpretation of different authors. I'm not sure if you share the same point of view but that's how I see it, and when I am to estimate battle powers I always ignore outside sources.

[VegettoEX]

I feel like I always have to preface this: I have no horse in the race, I don't care if Raditz is 1200 or 1500, it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the story in any way, and it doesn't change whether or not I'm going to keep these guidebooks on my shelf, or even open them ever again.

That being said:

So if one of your (general, plural "your") issues is that the contents of the guide books (just the Daizenshuu? All of them? Some of them? Do people even know there are more guide books than just the original run of Daizenshuu?) is that the information is compiled by multiple people, what would your stance be on a guide book that is compiled exclusively by a single individual?

Separately from that, what if they were written in totality by Toriyama? People complain about Toriyama's own inconsistencies, so why would it even matter if it came from the same author if it was published separately from the manga itself? Furthermore, would it all have to have been written at the same time as his original serialization to be "accurate"? How about statements Toriyama himself makes years later? Are those "true", regardless of how/if they line up with prior information? Is the publication date of external information relevant here, in addition to the singular source?

Furthermore, I think throwing out phrases like "untrustworthy" is a bit ridiculous. You not liking their information or disagreeing with the interpretation on some principle doesn't justify the new definition of "official" into a pejorative. That's so unbelievably self-righteous that I can't even.

It's OK to disagree; that's healthy. Discuss why you think it's different. Go in depth. Provide your examples, evidence, support, and backing. Go ahead and use whatever sources you want. Just maybe do it with a little more respect (for yourself, your peers, and the people who brought the series to you).

Don't misunderstand - that's not a declaration to eat it all up with a spoon and not question anything. Just don't be the cliché "guide books are untrustworthy" person when it's likely you can't even read them yourself (I say this as someone who can't even read them myself).

(Re-reading this post it comes across as far more critical and condemning than I intend it to, but I don't have the time to totally rewrite it - so just take my word for it!)

[LightBing]

[spoiler]I feel like I always have to preface this: I have no horse in the race, I don't care if Raditz is 1200 or 1500, it doesn't affect my enjoyment of the story in any way, and it doesn't change whether or not I'm going to keep these guidebooks on my shelf, or even open them ever again.

That being said:

So if one of your (general, plural "your") issues is that the contents of the guide books (just the Daizenshuu? All of them? Some of them? Do people even know there are more guide books than just the original run of Daizenshuu?) is that the information is compiled by multiple people, what would your stance be on a guide book that is compiled exclusively by a single individual?

Separately from that, what if they were written in totality by Toriyama? People complain about Toriyama's own inconsistencies, so why would it even matter if it came from the same author if it was published separately from the manga itself? Furthermore, would it all have to have been written at the same time as his original serialization to be "accurate"? How about statements Toriyama himself makes years later? Are those "true", regardless of how/if they line up with prior information? Is the publication date of external information relevant here, in addition to the singular source?

Furthermore, I think throwing out phrases like "untrustworthy" is a bit ridiculous. You not liking their information or disagreeing with the interpretation on some principle doesn't justify the new definition of "official" into a pejorative. That's so unbelievably self-righteous that I can't even.

It's OK to disagree; that's healthy. Discuss why you think it's different. Go in depth. Provide your examples, evidence, support, and backing. Go ahead and use whatever sources you want. Just maybe do it with a little more respect (for yourself, your peers, and the people who brought the series to you).

Don't misunderstand - that's not a declaration to eat it all up with a spoon and not question anything. Just don't be the cliché "guide books are untrustworthy" person when it's likely you can't even read them yourself (I say this as someone who can't even read them myself).

(Re-reading this post it comes across as far more critical and condemning than I intend it to, but I don't have the time to totally rewrite it - so just take my word for it!)[/spoiler]

You're assuming the worst and being quite harsh(even if it's not your intention), when ironically we're on the same page. We are both against extremist views: "this sucks" and "this is the gospel".

What I meant with untrustworthy is merely a cautionary tale. It''s like saying don't believe everything you hear on the news. I admit, I could have elaborate further, I thought my intention was clear. It might be fair to call it lazy writing.

Language is fickle. If I or someone wasn't clear enough, the best thing to do is to ask them to elaborate. Assuming and calling names isn't the correct way to have a conversation.

I don't understand why you bring up how the majority of us can't read the guide books. It's a moot point, we are receiving the information second-handed, we are in equal standing. If someone made a superficial observation based on language interpretations we can all do what Kaboom did above, explain the nuances of the Japanese language or bring context into the table.
Feels like an attack on the person(s) instead of an argument.

To conclude, this post is a bit sharp because even if you said to take you word for it, regarding the overall tone of the post, I only take half of it. This forum has the option to save drafts and even if you didn't have time today, eventually you would have it.

[Grimlock]

I do believe Raditz's power level to be slightly superior to those of Saibaman's, only because of Toriyama's notes. Raditz also has more experience in fights, so even with the gap in power level not being that huge between them, he's more than capable of defeating those creatures without a problem.

[dbgtFO]

People only mistrust guidebooks, because it is not stated, where the information comes from, when it's not found in the source material.
We end up in a situation, where you don't know, who is really providing all these new tidbits and if they really are in the spirit of the source material or just something some random guy, tasked with putting together a databook, came up with on his own.

It isn't hard to imagine Toriyama came up with the Battle Powers from that era, because that would have been handy for him at the time, when figuring out the fights, but confirmation would have been nice. Furthermore an elaboration on how he came up with them, apparent inconsistencies and all, would probably lead to greater understanding in the fanbase, but that is asking a bit too much from sensei

[Rubens]

I would like to apologize if my previous post transmitted the idea that I hold the dragon ball guides, in general, as "unthrustworthy" since it's not my opinion of them as a whole. It is true I have almost 0 knowledge of japanese and I haven't had the opportunity to read said guides (namely the daizenshuu, which I wish I could), but feel that your criticism is a bit unfair, because my opinion is regarded towards battle powers and not the contents of those guides that refer to in-universe information. Additionally, the little knowledge I have about the battle powers from the guides are precisely from this (great) site.

Regarding the various authors' work, I did not mean to question their validation: all I meant was that the existing information regarding battle powers is the fruit of the interpretation of more than one person. From my personal point of view, those battle power numbers are not as relevant as the ones contained in the original manga precisely because they are the result of someone's interpretation. What if they were written by Toriyama? Since I'm just talking about battle power numbers, perhaps.

To finalize, Mr. VegettoEX I have a great respect for you. However, despite not being sure if your criticism was directed to myself or Lightbing, or both, I got the impression you were too abrasive and unfair, especially considering this topic is specifically refering to a battle power subject, then deem us (me? him?) as self-righteous. I'm sorry if english isn't my native language and sometimes it's difficult for me to express myself (even in my own language sometimes).

On another note, I want to apologize the other members for going off-topic.

[VegettoEX]

I had already written and posted my response before I reflected on it and went back and edited my clarification, which is why I didn't hold onto it as a draft.

My point about not being able to read the books is a valid one, I think. Unlike the manga which has an official release in most logical regions, and you can read them in their entirety (front to back, all sidebars, all notes, all illustrations, etc. in context with each other), the same can't be said for these guide books. I mince no words when I talk about how pedantic strength debate / power level folks tend to be, yet the... it's not really "irony"... of the situation is that they're doing so with information they can't examine in its entirety when it comes to guide book material. That it's second-hand information isn't necessarily the problem or worst offense; it's the contextual understanding (or lack there-of). To most folks, these guide book statements are one-off sentences they're pulling from a purposefully-awkward-and-literal translation Jake did so people would stop hounding him about it. No real knowledge of what else is in the book, why it's written that way, how it's written, for what reason with regard to what section it's in, who the actual people and companies are that produced the books, etc. This is a gross over-generalization, because of course some people do actually own the books and at least try to track down the page and section its in for a little more context... but it's not many, and it's not the same as just reading the manga.

Again, I'm not saying "don't question" and "don't ask" and "don't disagree". I'm saying: be realistic about it. I think we're all saying that, but I'm trying to say it a little more forcefully because I've been watching this community drown itself in strength debate pedantry and negativity. I don't think it's in a healthy place right now. I'm in the business of expanding fandom, while (from my perspective) strength debate people seem to be in the business of pushing people away. (Then again, people probably think the same about me.)

I'm still genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I asked (and highlighted in bold). I never seem to actually get answers back on that stuff any time I ask, any way I ask. Everything is just dismissed outright because someone's already made up their mind. No-one's interested in an actual thought exercise that doesn't already line up with what they hold to be true. I don't agree with everything Kaboom says and thinks, but at least he gives other people the time of day and hears them out. Sometimes. Most of the time. I think. I hope.

I truly do want to hear your thoughts on what I asked. I want to get a better understanding of the "how" and "why" strength debate people think what they think and hold the beliefs they hold with regard to this supplemental material.

[Speedster]

You not liking their information or disagreeing with the interpretation on some principle doesn't justify the new definition of "official" into a pejorative. That's so unbelievably self-righteous that I can't even.

I'm still genuinely interested in the answers to the questions I asked (and highlighted in bold). I never seem to actually get answers back on that stuff any time I ask, any way I ask.

what would your stance be on a guide book that is compiled exclusively by a single individual?what if they were written in totality by Toriyama? People complain about Toriyama's own inconsistencies, so why would it even matter if it came from the same author if it was published separately from the manga itself?

1. Much of the negativity towards the guidebooks is not directed towards the guidebooks or their authors per se but towards the fans whose stance in any in-universe debate is to quote the guidebooks as if they were gospels rather than actually try to present evidence found within the source material itself.

2. The fact that there are multiple people involved in the compilation of the guidebooks and the existence of multiple guidebooks is not the main reason for the rejection of the guidebooks by many fans. The main reason is that none of these guidebooks - especially when it comes to the debatable stuff- were created with the input of the creators of the source material (i.e. Toriyama for the manga or at least the anime writers for the anime adaptation).

3. You saying that Toriyama (or the Toei writers for the anime) is inconsistent too is the fallacy of false equivalency. When we are dealing with a debatable topic we are effectively discussing “what the creator meant”. Taking the answer directly from the creators themselves is definitely not the same as taking it from just another dude who just like us is only merely subjectively interpreting the source material.

4. For me what is by far the most annoying thing related to guidebooks and my biggest pet hate is the hypocrisy of some fans who say they are only going by the source material (manga) and dismiss the anime’s take as “having nothing to do with Toriyama” yet they blindly accept the guidebooks despite them having nothing to do Toriyama either. One example is in the Kid Buu Vs Super Buu debate. In the anime Kid Buu is flat out stated to be the strongest Buu. Now some people want to dismiss the anime and focus on the manga –“the word of the original author”. Fair enough, let’s focus only on the manga then. But when this happens the very same people who didn't want to accept anything but Toriyama’s input resort to guidebooks and things in them like fixed SSJ multipliers in order to back up their argument.

[dragonball0900]

What I think is that if a guidebook information doesn't contradict the manga, I can accept it. If it contradicts the manga, like in this case, then I don't accept it. It's like Piccolo's 3,500 (a 2,800 reading should be stronger than that, specially since that's the only attack that manages to damage Nappa when he's not off guard, yet Piccolo did nothing), or the 180 and 260 readings from the DB era. They won't make sense with what is seen in the manga.

The 3,000,000 reading from Goku at the Frieza battle, as well as the 150,000,000 and 120,000,000 of SSJ Goku and Frieza, they don't contradict the manga, so I don't think those levels are wrong by any means. With the anime, however, there are power boosts (such as Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotzu vs Ginyu Force, or Yamcha vs Olibu, or SSJ3 Goku vs Super Buu) that don't make sense and contradict what it's stated in the manga. It's the same with the guidebooks! If the information contradicts Toriyama's work, then I just think those exact pieces of information are wrong.

That doesn't mean that all the information of the guidebooks are wrong. Not at all. As I said, some levels like the ones from Goku and Frieza are not contradictory, they are more than Second Form's Frieza's over 1 million, and there's good space between them to fit Piccolo, Vegeta and Third Form Frieza in there.

As I said in my previous post in this thread, the reason why I don't think Raditz' 1,500 level is possible at all, is because Nappa and Vegeta specifically stated that the Saibaman were around the level of Raditz. I agree that Raditz might not be 1,200, but as far as I can say, the only reading at maximun I can see for Raditz to fit is 1,300. That's because both Nappa and Vegeta were comparing the Saibaman to Raditz, as well as Tien's strenght when he defeated the Saibaman, and they said that if someone defeats a Saibaman, that person would surpass both Raditz and the Saibaman's level. If we take the 1,500 level as true, then the 1,480 level of Yamcha should be too. However, Yamcha defeated the Saibaman easily, and that would mean that Yamcha surpasses the level of a Saibaman, as well as Raditz since the two saiyans said that they were around the same level.

And since Raditz and the Saibaman should be around the same level, 1,500 just doesn't work because that would mean Raditz would defeat a Saibaman easily, even without using his superior intelligence in comparison to the Saibaman. The power gap between 1,200 and 1,500 is the same as the one between Monster Zarbon and Vegeta, yet Zarbon defeated Vegeta just toying with him. Even Vegeta against Kaioken X2 Goku was a big difference, and it's just between 16,000 and 18,000! As you can see, 1,500 is just too high for Raditz to be on the same level as the Saibaman, with a x1.25 of difference, that's a big gap in terms of a fight in Dragon Ball, and even if both 1,200 and 1,500 seem to be low in terms of numbers with just 300 of difference, we should never judge a book by it's cover, 1,200 against 1,500 is just like 24,000 against 30,000, both being at different levels.

[ahill1]

Vegeta also said Raditz was defeated by powers "slightly above" 1000 iirc, while the powers which surpassed 1000 did reach 1307 and 1330. So maybe for Toriyama such difference is still considered "slightly", the same being applied to 1500 vs 1200?

[dragonball0900]

Vegeta also said Raditz was defeated by powers "slightly above" 1000 iirc, while the powers which surpassed 1000 did reach 1307 and 1330. So maybe for Toriyama such difference is still considered "slightly", the same being applied to 1500 vs 1200?

Since the numbers way too close and small, and in the series the levels are always counted in "x" tousands, "y" tounsands and so on to round things up, it's understandable why he said that. However, if we talk about how much is the level of power in comparison to the other, that's a different thing.

[ahill1]

Vegeta also said Raditz was defeated by powers "slightly above" 1000 iirc, while the powers which surpassed 1000 did reach 1307 and 1330. So maybe for Toriyama such difference is still considered "slightly", the same being applied to 1500 vs 1200?

Since the numbers way too close and small, and in the series the levels are always counted in "x" tousands, "y" tounsands and so on to round things up, it's understandable why he said that. However, if we talk about how much is the level of power in comparison to the other, that's a different thing.

Well, this shows that according to Vegeta, a battle power of 1,330 is slightly above a BP of 1,000. Couldn't Nappa consider the same?

[dragonball0900]

Vegeta also said Raditz was defeated by powers "slightly above" 1000 iirc, while the powers which surpassed 1000 did reach 1307 and 1330. So maybe for Toriyama such difference is still considered "slightly", the same being applied to 1500 vs 1200?

Since the numbers way too close and small, and in the series the levels are always counted in "x" tousands, "y" tounsands and so on to round things up, it's understandable why he said that. However, if we talk about how much is the level of power in comparison to the other, that's a different thing.

Well, this shows that according to Vegeta, a battle power of 1,330 is slightly above a BP of 1,000. Couldn't Nappa consider the same?

In the series they used to round up the numbers. If we go by how many numbers are between 1,000 and 1,330 in comparison to let's say 20,000 and 26,000, there are obviously not many in the former than just a few hundreds. That's what Vegeta meant when he said "a power slightly above 1,000". However, if we go by how many times stronger is 1,330 than 1,000 in a battle, a multiplication instead of an addition, then a difference between 1,000 and 1,330 in comparison to a difference between 20,000 and 26,000 are practically the same.

I'm pretty sure Nappa thought the same too. But later with the Saibaman fight, both Nappa and Vegeta were implying that a level that can defeat a 1,200 power is a level that can defeat Raditz too, and that Raditz and the Saibaman were on the same level, something that the 1,500 number fails to prove.

[ahill1]

Since the numbers way too close and small, and in the series the levels are always counted in "x" tousands, "y" tounsands and so on to round things up, it's understandable why he said that. However, if we talk about how much is the level of power in comparison to the other, that's a different thing.

Well, this shows that according to Vegeta, a battle power of 1,330 is slightly above a BP of 1,000. Couldn't Nappa consider the same?

In the series they used to round up the numbers. If we go by how many numbers are between 1,000 and 1,330 in comparison to let's say 20,000 and 26,000, there are obviously not many in the former than just a few hundreds. That's what Vegeta meant when he said "a power slightly above 1,000". However, if we go by how many times stronger is 1,330 than 1,000 in a battle, a multiplication instead of an addition, then a difference between 1,000 and 1,330 in comparison to a difference between 20,000 and 26,000 are practically the same.

I'm pretty sure Nappa thought the same too. But later with the Saibaman fight, both Nappa and Vegeta were implying that a level that can defeat a 1,200 power is a level that can defeat Raditz too, and that Raditz and the Saibaman were on the same level, something that the 1,500 number fails to prove.

I don't think it can be simply look upon as "an addition". I am sure nobody with a BP of 700 would define someone who did a transformation in which the power jumped from 300 to ~650 as a "slight power up", despite the "jumping" being only of a few hundreds. Raditz also considered Goku and Piccolo going from ~300 to ~400 as something useless and that they could add hundreds degrees that would change nothing. So I think it's just a case of "Vegeta is so far above that power that it makes no difference"...it'd, imo, change his perception torwards powers that don't even affect him.