Goku vs. Mutaito

[OWmyDragonBallz]

This episode has always bothered me with two things, one being that it mentions "ki" or "spirit energy" like it hasn't been used in the series prior with kamehameha and many other movies.
Secondly, Mutaito was no match for King Piccolo, yet Goku surpassed him and then fights Mutaito and is no match for him. Is this just typical filler logic or can it be explained. Lol!

[Captain Strawberry]

This episode has always bothered me with two things, one being that it mentions "ki" or "spirit energy" like it hasn't been used in the series prior with kamehameha and many other movies.
Secondly, Mutaito was no match for King Piccolo, yet Goku surpassed him and then fights Mutaito and is no match for him. Is this just typical filler logic or can it be explained. Lol!

You could say King Piccolo was much stronger at that time.

Making sense since Kamz was said to be quite strong.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It could have been a matter of technique rather than power.

[omaro34]

Is Mutaito filer or cannon?

[Darkprince410]

This episode has always bothered me with two things, one being that it mentions "ki" or "spirit energy" like it hasn't been used in the series prior with kamehameha and many other movies.
Secondly, Mutaito was no match for King Piccolo, yet Goku surpassed him and then fights Mutaito and is no match for him. Is this just typical filler logic or can it be explained. Lol!

You could say King Piccolo was much stronger at that time.

The whole point of Daimao getting his youth back was to restore his power back to full. He should be at least as strong when he fought Goku as he was when he fought Mutaito, if not stronger.

[Captain Strawberry]

This episode has always bothered me with two things, one being that it mentions "ki" or "spirit energy" like it hasn't been used in the series prior with kamehameha and many other movies.
Secondly, Mutaito was no match for King Piccolo, yet Goku surpassed him and then fights Mutaito and is no match for him. Is this just typical filler logic or can it be explained. Lol!

You could say King Piccolo was much stronger at that time.

The whole point of Daimao getting his youth back was to restore his power back to full. He should be at least as strong when he fought Goku as he was when he fought Mutaito, if not stronger.

True but the reason I say that is because Nail telling Piccolo if he fused with his other half, he would be much stronger and he did despite Piccolo's other half being much weaker. So this leads me to believe, he was originally much stronger.

[MisteryOne]

You could say King Piccolo was much stronger at that time.

The whole point of Daimao getting his youth back was to restore his power back to full. He should be at least as strong when he fought Goku as he was when he fought Mutaito, if not stronger.

True but the reason I say that is because Nail telling Piccolo if he fused with his other half, he would be much stronger and he did despite Piccolo's other half being much weaker. So this leads me to believe, he was originally much stronger.

What has that to do with this? Piccolo Daimao was always just a half, and as it has already said, the whole point of becoming young again was to restore all of his power. Also, you're saying it yourself, Piccolo was already fused with Nail before merging with Kami, that's why the increase in power was way bigger because it wasn't just a fusion between the two halfs.

[Darkprince410]

You could say King Piccolo was much stronger at that time.

The whole point of Daimao getting his youth back was to restore his power back to full. He should be at least as strong when he fought Goku as he was when he fought Mutaito, if not stronger.

True but the reason I say that is because Nail telling Piccolo if he fused with his other half, he would be much stronger and he did despite Piccolo's other half being much weaker. So this leads me to believe, he was originally much stronger.

I'm not following you. Mutaito fought Daimao. He didn't fight the pre-split child of Katatz or anything like that, but Daimao, the exact same individual that Goku later fought. Given the nature of the wish and his desire for it, Daimao, upon having his youth restored, was at the peak of his own power.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Therefore, Daimao, when he fought Goku, was at least as strong as he was when he fought Mutaito ages before and was sealed, if not even stronger. As such, Goku had the power advantage over someone that Mutaito stood absolutely no chance against, and therefore it makes no sense for Goku to come up so short against Mutaito during those filler scenes (beyond the usual "filler" reason, that is)

[ahill1]

Therefore, Daimao, when he fought Goku, was at least as strong as he was when he fought Mutaito ages before and was sealed, if not even stronger. As such, Goku had the power advantage over someone that Mutaito stood absolutely no chance against, and therefore it makes no sense for Goku to come up so short against Mutaito during those filler scenes (beyond the usual "filler" reason, that is)

It also depends on how strong you think original Kamiccolo was. Saichoro stated "Kamiccolo"' genius power was diminished by half when he expelled his evil self:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

So I think it's fair to say Kamiccolo = 2x Piccolo Daimao (right after the split) = 2x Kami (right after the split), making Kami = Piccolo Daimao, right after the split.


But we know that Kami-sama was way stronger than Piccolo Daimao when Goku defeated him, and that Kami was already old as opposed to his young self. So, we'd have either of these options:

Kami (young) = Piccolo Daimao (young) > Kami (old) > Piccolo Daimao (youth restored)

Kami (old) > Kami (young) = Piccolo Daimao (young) = Piccolo Daimao (youth restored) > Piccolo Daimao (old)


If we assume the 1st one, then we could say that Piccolo's power didn't drop solely by getting old, but also by getting rusty in that jug, and the Dragon Balls would just replenish his youth but not his lack of training, which also favored him getting weaker.

[Darkprince410]

It also depends on how strong you think original Kamiccolo was. Saichoro stated "Kamiccolo"' genius power was diminished by half when he expelled his evil self:

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

So I think it's fair to say Kamiccolo = 2x Piccolo Daimao (right after the split) = 2x Kami (right after the split), making Kami = Piccolo Daimao, right after the split.

Given that both times we've seen merges and the Grand Elder's statement about them "not having had to die" if they had returned, I don't put stock in it being that Kami was literally half the strength of the original child of Katatz, but rather that them split makes them nowhere near what they could have been when together. It's metaphorical vs. literal.

Besides, the Grand Elder is basing his view of the child of Katatz's strength on when he was just a child vs. where Daimao and Kami were during Dragon Ball. The two might have been a mere fraction of the child of Katatz's strength when they split, and just by Dragon Ball was Kami now at "half" of the child's strength. Therefore, it's possible for Daimao to always have been below that split.

[ahill1]

Given that both times we've seen merges and the Grand Elder's statement about them "not having had to die" if they had returned, I don't put stock in it being that Kami was literally half the strength of the original child of Katatz, but rather that them split makes them nowhere near what they could have been when together. It's metaphorical vs. literal.

I don't think Saichoro's comment means Kamiccolo'd necessarily be above Vegeta or something. He acceessed Kuririn's memories, so I think he could have had access to how Piccolo died. So, if he had come back together as one, he might have been able to steal until Son Goku's arrive. Besides, he didn't specify when the "if he had come back together as one" would take place... he could be referring that if they joined like a year before the Saiyans' arrival, then not only his power but his potential would also increase, making his gains more effective.

Besides, the Grand Elder is basing his view of the child of Katatz's strength on when he was just a child vs. where Daimao and Kami were during Dragon Ball. The two might have been a mere fraction of the child of Katatz's strength when they split, and just by Dragon Ball was Kami now at "half" of the child's strength. Therefore, it's possible for Daimao to always have been below that split.

I'm not sure I am following. You are saying Kami and Piccolo Daimao were initially at like 5% (just a hypothetical percentage for "fraction") and that Kami got stronger afterwards and did reach 50% of the original Kamiccolo's power?

[buutenks]

Toei filler nonsense.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not sure I am following. You are saying Kami and Piccolo Daimao were initially at like 5% (just a hypothetical percentage for "fraction") and that Kami got stronger afterwards and did reach 50% of the original Kamiccolo's power?

Essentially yes. And thus Daimao could have always been weaker (lack of desire to train or something, perhaps), which explains the gap shown between Kami and Daimao, while at the same time keeping Daimao's strength from changing outside of due to old age.

[Speedster]

Goku didn't literally travel to the past to meet Mutaito in DB episode 129. He only went there spiritually like Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Kuririn and Chiaotzu “travelled back to the past” to fight the Saiyans in DBZ episode 17. Here are the screenshots.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Sure the Room of Time looks different in the two episodes but it is undoubtedly the same (it is even stated to be such). Just probably Popo redesigned it but the effect is the same anyway. In any case it is possible that Popo who set up the parameters for Goku’s spiritual timetravel to the past to have amped the power level of “spiritual Mutaito” in order to make the lesson to Goku more effective.

[ahill1]

I'm not sure I am following. You are saying Kami and Piccolo Daimao were initially at like 5% (just a hypothetical percentage for "fraction") and that Kami got stronger afterwards and did reach 50% of the original Kamiccolo's power?

Essentially yes. And thus Daimao could have always been weaker (lack of desire to train or something, perhaps), which explains the gap shown between Kami and Daimao, while at the same time keeping Daimao's strength from changing outside of due to old age.

I also think that Piccolo Daimao regaining the power he had against Mutaito by becoming young should be the clear intent here... by the scan you posted it really does seem that way. But I also do think that Kamiccolo diminishing by half his power would mean that Piccolo Daimao took half from it, making Kami (right after the split) = Piccolo Daimao, also right after the split. We could say Kami got stronger between the split and Goku's fight with Piccolo Daimao, hence why Kami was portrayed as way stronger than his evil self. But that not only would make the original Kamiccolo kind of weak (only 2x young Piccolo Daimao?), but also kind of contradict the implications of Kami getting weaker, like Piccolo Junior stating at the 23rd Budokai that Kami isn't a threat anymore since he is lazy and slacked off. This makes it sound like young Kami is > the current one, imo, therefore making Piccolo Daimao after the split way stronger than himself from the fight with Goku. Unless Piccolo (vs Mutaito) is way below the Piccolo after the split?