A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

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cheddarsword
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A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

Post by cheddarsword » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:48 am

I've been curious about something lately. Why does SS Grade 3 drain speed? Most other "power weighted" forms do nothing but increase both power AND speed.

Final Form Frieza 100%: Maximum power output and speed capable of nearly keeping up with SS Goku.

Legendary Super Saiyan: Even setting Broly aside, Kale does nothing but become stronger and faster with this form. This also being with Saiyan DNA! Taking Broly into account, the form also has enough speed to dodge multiple attackers at the same time. So that's increased movement speed AND increased battle speed.

Full Power Roshi: Though his speed is never measured in this form, It's never shown to hinder it. Rather, he manages to fight off some of Frieza's mob in this form.

The only "power weighted" forms to actually lose speed are SS Grade 3 and Full Power Perfect Cell (Not to be confused with Super Perfect Cell).

So this makes for two questions here.

1: Why does Grade 3 lose speed?

2: Considering Cell has Frieza's DNA, why does his Full Power form lose speed? If anything, it should maintain the previous form's speed!

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mcdjbeatz
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Re: A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

Post by mcdjbeatz » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:29 am

Maybe Super Saiyan 3 Grade and Cell's power weighted form hit a threshold in muscle mass where the additional mass decreases the user's speed whereas other forms while increasing muscle mass doesn't reach that threshold and therefore doesn't cause the user any significant speed loss. With the other "power weighted" forms something interesting to note is that they have other drawbacks, Roshi's buff form and Frieza's 100% form decreases the user's stamina and Broly's form causes the user's ki to rise to a point where it overflows forcing the user to expend the excess energy. Maybe the key is that these forms are unstable and therefore cause a drawback in other areas of a user such as speed or stamina because they force a user to increase their muscle mass beyond normal limits, or maybe a user when utilizing these sorts of "power weighted" forms divert most of their ki reserves to increasing and sustaining their muscle mass to increase strength leaving little ki to be used for maintaining their normal levels of speed or stamina. Goku did say that super saiyan third grade uses a lot of energy so maybe that holds some weight and the same might apply for Cell's power weighted form.

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Re: A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:33 am

The loss of speed may just not have been notable in those other cases, as they wouldn't have mattered anyway. Besides Freeza is already stupid fast, I figure his slim body makes him fast for his powerlevel, so while buff form makes him slower compared to what he would be in his slim form with that power, it's still fast enough to keep up with Goku.
Broly could have just been so strong, that his speed was still beyond the others, even though it's slow for that powerlevel.
Same with Kale and Roshi unlike Merged Zamasu who hulked out and couldn't keep up with Vegetto.

Also it is not like the form is ever said to outright decrease speed.
I prefer to view it, as their speed just not increasing by the same extent their power does, thus making them slow for their power, but not slower than before.

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Re: A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

Post by Kaboom » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:41 am

Don't forget that Broli also seems to somehow gain a few extra feet of height along with all that bulk.
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Re: A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

Post by Desassina » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:17 pm

It's inconsistent... The drawings of bulky characters might have been closer to what his editors and movie producers requested more so than Toriyama's own desire. You can see that they would match his contributions to Dragon Ball Z movies, while the androids 19 and 20, Semi-Perfect Cell and Beerus' designs were more unique. With that in mind, I don't have a problem believing that Grade III SSJ was Toriyama's own doing, while something like Broly was not (in terms of concept. He contributed with drawings). DB Super is only recaping his look, but introducing something of its own, possibly. I look at Kale and see a green with envy SSJ amazon.

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Generico Garbagio
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Re: A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

Post by Generico Garbagio » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:23 pm

Kaboom wrote:Don't forget that Broli also seems to somehow gain a few extra feet of height along with all that bulk.
This image is awesome! I thought Vegeta was a bit shorter though.

On topic, the "Bulkiness" slowing down speed, I think, is more about battle speed. They do mention sometimes that having too many muscles is encumbering and it's more trouble to "move around", so while I guess it shouldn't make you fly faster, coordinating your movements might be more complicated. I am slim and I can easily touch any part of my back, but if I got buff like SSJ grade 3, I could see how it would be more complicated... So that's what I think applies in this situation. Maybe?

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Re: A discussion of "power weighted" forms.

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:00 pm

Different forms different rules and we dont know all the mechanics behind them

With Frieza while his 100% full power dose bulk him up...its not a truly abnormal degree. His muscle mass, while impressive still looks somewhat natural. When compared to Goku, Full Power Frieza looks to be about the same size, body mass wise. The anime just had a hard time keeping his size consistent while in the manga the change is not that big.

Grade 3's muscle mass by comparison looks far more abnormal, in fact it puts Frieza's to shame. This muscle issue is a real life problem. Many body builders are not fast or agile as their bodies are built for strength, they are much heavier and the lack much of the superior cardiovascular power of more well rounded athletes. Thats what happens with Grade 3 I think, it grants a phenomenal boost in power and physical strength but dose not enhance the users stamina, in fact making it worse, and lowers their agility.

LSS on the other hand dose compensate for this. The user's muscle mass is not the only thing to increase but also their size. Broly in base is only about a head taller then Goku at most while in LSS he's easily added another foot to his height. Also if you look closer you'll notice his muscle mass is more naturally distributed then Grade 3's. LSS lack the the bulked up forearms and lower legs of Grade 3. It also possible that the form makes superior internal changes to cope with its power.

While Cell may have Frieza's DNA that's not the same thing. Cell is often wrongly described as a clone when he is a Biot. An organism designed by Gero using alien DNA as a template. Yes alien because in the manga Cell is solely made of Saiyan, Namekian and Frieza Clan DNA. As a result, the degree to which Cell can mimic the abilities of his genetic forbears is to a degree questionable. In his full power state Cell's body has more in common with Grade 3 then it dose Frieza's Full Power one. This suggests a stronger tie to his saiyan genes and like Grade for his muscle mass clearly abnormal even for his alien body.

Another example is Grotesque Zamasu at his full power. As Vegito pointed out, his hulking form could not keep up with his speed despite the form being the embodiment of Zamasu's rage.

What it seems to boil down to is if the muscle mass and body size exceed the body's ability to cope with the changes.

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