I can't believe I'm defending Goku here since he isn't my favorite character, but I'm also fair and objective. Everything I mention here is from an In-Universe perspective. Since father's day is close by, I figured this thread would be appropriate. I'm not going to defend his constant concept that training gets priority over family, but I will defend him on one major thing so hear me out:
At the end of the Cell arc, when Goku sacrificed himself for the good of his adopted home world, his reasoning was that the earth keeps getting threatened with him around. Think about it, the vast majority of the villains were after Goku. Piccolo Jr, Raditz, Freeza once he was beaten, the RRA & the Androids (and Cell) who all stemmed from Dr Gero who specifically created all of that to destroy Goku and get revenge, are the villains to name a few. Even as a youngster, him being around others got them killed, Mercenary Tao killed Bora simply because Goku was around and he was the main target anyway. Yes Bora challenged him, but if Goku wasn't there that wouldn't have happened in the first place.
So people call Goku's decision to stay dead at the end of the Cell arc selfish and they point to that as the main reason why he's a shitty father. Well, what happened when he decided to stay dead? 7 years of peace occured! And what happened the moment he came back during that one measly day? More trouble occurred with the Buu saga getting underway with yet another creature threatening to destroy Earth.
Do you see a pattern? Goku's attracted to bad guys, they come to him like a magnet. If he stays away, then his family can live in peace. I think that's the opposite of selfish.
What do you guys think?
Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
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omaro34
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Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
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Lord Beerus
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Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
This is quite a complicated issue.
It can be denied that Goku doesn't love his wife and children, be he very much does. As you brought up, he was willing to sacrifice his life to protect his family twice. And choosing to stay dead after dying the second time around was a decision he made as he perceived that with his presence everyone he cared about would be safe. And had the confidence that Gohan would protect the world in his steed should another threat arise. So at the very least he is family man but not so much a father in the sense that he's will to go out of his way to ensure his family is safe, as any father would, and welcomes the idea of giving his life make sure that his family with a smile. But at the same token, he doesn't really do much to get invested in what Gohan want to do in the future and greatly misjudges his character during the Cell Games thinking that he relishes the thrill of combat like he does, when he really doesn't at all.
But when the world doesn't need protecting or lives don't need resurrecting, his family do need some kind of financial support to make sure they, you know, eat and have clean cloths to wear on their backs. In terms of being a breadwinner, Goku is really not suited for the role, like at all. And as such, he kind of failed in being a proper father in the monetary sense. He's basically a deadbeat dad. And it really wasn't until Super that we actually saw him actively taking a job and supporting his family financially. And that only really happened because they were on the verge of bankruptcy, as the donations from the Ox King were running very low.
I'd honestly say that Super has done a good job of showing how good of a father, husband and a family man
It can be denied that Goku doesn't love his wife and children, be he very much does. As you brought up, he was willing to sacrifice his life to protect his family twice. And choosing to stay dead after dying the second time around was a decision he made as he perceived that with his presence everyone he cared about would be safe. And had the confidence that Gohan would protect the world in his steed should another threat arise. So at the very least he is family man but not so much a father in the sense that he's will to go out of his way to ensure his family is safe, as any father would, and welcomes the idea of giving his life make sure that his family with a smile. But at the same token, he doesn't really do much to get invested in what Gohan want to do in the future and greatly misjudges his character during the Cell Games thinking that he relishes the thrill of combat like he does, when he really doesn't at all.
But when the world doesn't need protecting or lives don't need resurrecting, his family do need some kind of financial support to make sure they, you know, eat and have clean cloths to wear on their backs. In terms of being a breadwinner, Goku is really not suited for the role, like at all. And as such, he kind of failed in being a proper father in the monetary sense. He's basically a deadbeat dad. And it really wasn't until Super that we actually saw him actively taking a job and supporting his family financially. And that only really happened because they were on the verge of bankruptcy, as the donations from the Ox King were running very low.
I'd honestly say that Super has done a good job of showing how good of a father, husband and a family man
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Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
As with nearly all things related to Dragon Ball's characterizations (and maybe this can't be helped with such a popular series and one that tends to operate on broad scales), Goku's relationship to his family members tends to get exaggerated by both the "good dad" and "bad dad" camps.
Goku is not an uncaring father, nor is he one who prioritizes that role in his life.
Goku loves Gohan. He's with him for the first four years of his life, is willing to put everything on the line to save him from Raditz, and is invested in his growth both generally and with a particular highlight in the Cell arc. He also loves Chi-Chi and Goten, enough for it to not be jarring when either the manga and anime brings their safety up as a motivator for his continued struggle against the villain du jour.
But the issue, as ever with Goku, is that he loves his challenges and enemies too. He cares about Gohan, but not necessarily enough to prioritize his safety or an active role in his life over, say:
-Letting Vegeta, who he failed to defeat, get away in the Saiyan arc
-Or attempting to let Freeza go
-Or refusing to pre-empt the androids, whom he knows kill them all in an alternate timeline
-Or staying dead essentially voluntarily with the promise of more strong fighters in the afterlife
-Or refusing to fight Vegeta, which will unleash Boo
-Or stopping Boo when he could due to his interest in the next generation's development (because Boo arc Goku is supremely, phenomenally bored)
That middle one, remaining dead voluntarily at the end of the Cell arc, is the one that stands out to me in particular, and the one which I think always counters the arguments that Goku leaving his family at the end of the manga is somehow uncharacteristic. The common defense is that he says he's remaining dead so as not to attract more bad guys, but his note about getting to meet more strong fighters follows so quickly afterward, and is so consistent with his characterization up to that point that, as always, the most honest interpretation is probably that it's a little of both. He certainly doesn't love Gohan enough to pass up that opportunity and remain with him through his adolescent years.
On top of his being more or less ruled by other interests, Goku truly doesn't understand Gohan's motivations as a child (despite Goku's plan in the Cell arc panning out, the series doesn't back away from the fact that Piccolo is essentially introducing new information to him by pointing out that Gohan doesn't enjoy fighting for fighting's sake), and doesn't identify with his scholarly interests as an adult. None of that is, on its own, a negative or a condemnation of his parenting; it's just how the series portrays their relationship.
Goku isn't an unloving father, but, like any number of basically loving fathers in real life, he's one who has a tendency to fall prey to interests that draw him away from his familial role. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Again, little of column A, little of column B, but I lean heavily toward which ever column is ruled by Goku's somewhat unhealthy passions and boredom.
Goku is not an uncaring father, nor is he one who prioritizes that role in his life.
Goku loves Gohan. He's with him for the first four years of his life, is willing to put everything on the line to save him from Raditz, and is invested in his growth both generally and with a particular highlight in the Cell arc. He also loves Chi-Chi and Goten, enough for it to not be jarring when either the manga and anime brings their safety up as a motivator for his continued struggle against the villain du jour.
But the issue, as ever with Goku, is that he loves his challenges and enemies too. He cares about Gohan, but not necessarily enough to prioritize his safety or an active role in his life over, say:
-Letting Vegeta, who he failed to defeat, get away in the Saiyan arc
-Or attempting to let Freeza go
-Or refusing to pre-empt the androids, whom he knows kill them all in an alternate timeline
-Or staying dead essentially voluntarily with the promise of more strong fighters in the afterlife
-Or refusing to fight Vegeta, which will unleash Boo
-Or stopping Boo when he could due to his interest in the next generation's development (because Boo arc Goku is supremely, phenomenally bored)
That middle one, remaining dead voluntarily at the end of the Cell arc, is the one that stands out to me in particular, and the one which I think always counters the arguments that Goku leaving his family at the end of the manga is somehow uncharacteristic. The common defense is that he says he's remaining dead so as not to attract more bad guys, but his note about getting to meet more strong fighters follows so quickly afterward, and is so consistent with his characterization up to that point that, as always, the most honest interpretation is probably that it's a little of both. He certainly doesn't love Gohan enough to pass up that opportunity and remain with him through his adolescent years.
On top of his being more or less ruled by other interests, Goku truly doesn't understand Gohan's motivations as a child (despite Goku's plan in the Cell arc panning out, the series doesn't back away from the fact that Piccolo is essentially introducing new information to him by pointing out that Gohan doesn't enjoy fighting for fighting's sake), and doesn't identify with his scholarly interests as an adult. None of that is, on its own, a negative or a condemnation of his parenting; it's just how the series portrays their relationship.
Goku isn't an unloving father, but, like any number of basically loving fathers in real life, he's one who has a tendency to fall prey to interests that draw him away from his familial role. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
He gets bored by the afterlife. Turns out he's one of the strongest people there too (even the manga demonstrates this near the beginning of the arc). His very first day back on Earth, he's participant in bringing about one of the greatest supervillains it's ever faced and still decides to remain alive afterward, so the altruistic angle doesn't quite track.omaro34 wrote:So people call Goku's decision to stay dead at the end of the Cell arc selfish and they point to that as the main reason why he's a shitty father. Well, what happened when he decided to stay dead? 7 years of peace occured!
Again, little of column A, little of column B, but I lean heavily toward which ever column is ruled by Goku's somewhat unhealthy passions and boredom.
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GodKaio-Ken
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Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
Is Android 17 a bad dad for staying on his island?
My argument is that if Goku led the family life the world would be over already multiple times. While he may not be a "hero" in the strictest sense of the word, especially in the west, he is training for future threats.
Its clear that Gohan grew up to love his dad very much and Goten idolizes him more or less. If his own family love him the way he is then who are we to judge.
Hell...remember the rage boost he got after Goku Black explained about killing his family?
My argument is that if Goku led the family life the world would be over already multiple times. While he may not be a "hero" in the strictest sense of the word, especially in the west, he is training for future threats.
Its clear that Gohan grew up to love his dad very much and Goten idolizes him more or less. If his own family love him the way he is then who are we to judge.
Hell...remember the rage boost he got after Goku Black explained about killing his family?
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Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
I think it all goes down to priorities. I am thinking that Goku might be keeping Gohan safe since you know what happened during the old school Dragon Ball days when Gohan was kidnapped by Vegeta. I feel that Goku thinks he attracts trouble whereever he goes and it is sometimes better just to leave and keep he family safe rather than stay and keep them in harms way.
Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
Goku IS a crappy father. But that's not the same as not being a loving father. Goku definitely loves his kids, but his lack of understanding of how people work coupled with his selfish desires drives him to make extremely bad decissions regarding parenting. Such as, you know, staying away from his family for years to do something he likes better than parenting. Goku is a bad father, but considering his mental capabilities, he wouldn't be able to be anything else.
I always say that when Chi-chi tricked Goku into marriage and fatherhood she basically did the same as if she had picked up a wild wolverine from the forrest and expected it to act like a loyal and well-behaved dog. It was never going to happen, it just was never possible.
I always say that when Chi-chi tricked Goku into marriage and fatherhood she basically did the same as if she had picked up a wild wolverine from the forrest and expected it to act like a loyal and well-behaved dog. It was never going to happen, it just was never possible.
Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
Right on. Completely on board with that.Puaru wrote:Goku IS a crappy father. But that's not the same as not being a loving father. Goku definitely loves his kids, but his lack of understanding of how people work coupled with his selfish desires drives him to make extremely bad decissions regarding parenting. Such as, you know, staying away from his family for years to do something he likes better than parenting. Goku is a bad father, but considering his mental capabilities, he wouldn't be able to be anything else.
Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
It's not fair because the DB universe is not a serious enough universe for these issues. We can find fault in Goku as a father but basiclaly only if we use real-world criteria that, by definition, are not coherent with the DB universe.
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cheddarsword
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Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
King Kai's take:
Goku's a crappy but loving father,
didn't help that Piccolo did it better,
shut up Bojack.
Long version:
Goku is pretty crappy for a dad. Believe me, I know what a crappy dad looks like. BUT he does love Gohan. That's evident as he was afraid to go to far with pushing Gohan in the time chamber. It was only when Gohan asked him to go that far that he managed to get anywhere. That was the type of training Piccolo gave him and it worked.
Naturally, he sees Piccolo as a mentor as a result.
Re: Goku Gets An Unfair Look as a Father
goku did not marrie chichi to be a good husband , he did not make kids to be a good father.
he just did those things just becouse.period.
like tell me the reason goku married chichi.
he just did those things just becouse.period.
like tell me the reason goku married chichi.