Piccolo > Goten and Trunks?

[ekrolo2]

I usually assume he's stronger before ROSAT but after it they've probably bypassed him in SS. Not by much but I think it happens.

[The gr]

Yeah I say he's stronger than the kids but the Gap are not that big imo but in Super Piccolo is far stronger than the kids

[dragon boss z]

Goten and Trunks are weak. In Super when Bulma said Trunks beat Frieza, Jaco said that was impossible, and Bulma said duh it was Trunks from the future. To me that sounds like Bulma thinks kid Trunks couldn't beat Frieza. Also not to mention a 17 year old Trunks is just above Frieza, so why would a kid version of Trunks be that far ahead of Frieza? Even if he somehow got stronger than Frieza I doubt he would be stronger than Piccolo. I mean kid Goten and Trunks were hiding behind a rock after their fusion ran out while Krillin, Tien, and Roshi were out and ready to fight. Though you could just chalk that up to Super making no sense.

[dragonball0900]

Piccolo is stronger than pre-ROSAT Ssj Goku and Vegeta who are more than likely stronger than Goten and Trunks so I'd say yes, he's stronger.

Goten and Trunks managed to make feats that Android 16 or Semi Perfect Cell wouldn't do. An attack that was said to be suppressed a lot seems to scare Android 18. That would put the kids way above the pre ROSAT saiyans.

Goten and Trunks are weak. In Super when Bulma said Trunks beat Frieza, Jaco said that was impossible, and Bulma said duh it was Trunks from the future. To me that sounds like Bulma thinks kid Trunks couldn't beat Frieza. Also not to mention a 17 year old Trunks is just above Frieza, so why would a kid version of Trunks be that far ahead of Frieza? Even if he somehow got stronger than Frieza I doubt he would be stronger than Piccolo. I mean kid Goten and Trunks were hiding behind a rock after their fusion ran out while Krillin, Tien, and Roshi were out and ready to fight. Though you could just chalk that up to Super making no sense.

Bulma doesn't know how to sense ki so I wouldn't take her word that seriously. Trunks is also a kid and less experienced compared to Future Trunks.

Just because Goten and Trunks were hiding behind a rock it doesn't mean they are weaker than the humans. That would be impossible. It would also mean just like the Universal Survival arc with the tournament, the humans being there doesn't mean Goten and Trunks are stronger, it's just that they are more experienced.

Super seems to portrait them as weak. However, back in Z, there were lots of proof that they were even more and more stronger than that.

[sintzu]

Goten and Trunks managed to make feats that Android 16 or Semi Perfect Cell wouldn't do. An attack that was said to be suppressed a lot seems to scare Android 18. That would put the kids way above the pre ROSAT saiyans.

Couldn't that be her being more surprised than scared ?

[dragon boss z]

Goten and Trunks managed to make feats that Android 16 or Semi Perfect Cell wouldn't do. An attack that was said to be suppressed a lot seems to scare Android 18. That would put the kids way above the pre ROSAT saiyans.

Couldn't that be her being more surprised than scared ?

This is what I think

[dragonball0900]

Goten and Trunks managed to make feats that Android 16 or Semi Perfect Cell wouldn't do. An attack that was said to be suppressed a lot seems to scare Android 18. That would put the kids way above the pre ROSAT saiyans.

Couldn't that be her being more surprised than scared ?

But as I said, they showed better feats such as being able to fight Gohan or punch Vegeta. You wouldn't see Android 16 or Semi Perfect Cell doing that at all. Also remember, that attack from Trunks was supressed. If it was at full power, then I would be siding with you of her being more surprised than scared, being only surprised by them being powerful, and not judging by their strenght. However, Trunks was suppressed, Trunks even said that he will try not to kill her, and Android 18 knew they were SSJs, that's the key point, and despite all of that they were still being able to surprise Android 18.

Piccolo also said they were "Earth's last hope", he wouldn't say that to someone that is below Android 18, specially with an opponent like Buu. The Daizenshuu goes further with this and says that Goten has a power close to Gohan's. I wouldn't say he's that close to Gohan, but surely, you wouldn't find the Daizenshuu saying that Android 18 also has a power close to Gohan, would you?

[Lord Beerus]

I'd definitely say the he's stronger than the kids by now. He could hang with SSJ2 Gohan in Super, which was never a scenario before.

[Analytic]

Goten can give Gohan a good fight and even force him into the air, while Trunks can take a reflex punch from Vegeta without getting his head taken off. I don't see anything that suggests Piccolo could do anything to match these feats.

[LowRyder2005]

To further clarify things: Dragon Ball Super portrays Goten and Trunks as inferior to Piccolo even during ROF.
We have Vegeta implying they would take gladly take Gotenks to fight in the U6 vs. U7 tournament; however, on their own, both Trunks and Goten just aren't strong enough to earn a place in the team. Which means everyone on the team, the likes of Piccolo and Mr. Buu included, are more powerful than them.

Whether this reinforces or confirms the general theory they were below Piccolo during the Buu saga is up to one's judgement. Combined with the effect of having Buuccolo "coming out strongly", instead of a "Buutrunks" or a "Buuten" the moment the fusion was undone, greatly strengthens the general idea they always were below Piccolo indeed.
Which still sounds off for a plethora of reasons, though. Official sources also state Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo at that point, thereby making the kids strong but definitely nothing special.

[Desassina]

I thought that Piccolo Boo was still Gotenks based when the latter returned to normal. He still had a large antenna, the hands were fully outlined with fingers, and he was barechested under the cape. It's a nice contrast to Evil Boo with only Piccolo absorbed, who had mittens for his hands, a smaller antenna and a dark attire. Granted that Gotenks' power might have been fading, but even Dai Kaioshin was a major influence when Pure Boo had absorbed the Southern one, so it's not like it should matter.

[DBZ Macky]

To further clarify things: Dragon Ball Super portrays Goten and Trunks as inferior to Piccolo even during ROF.
We have Vegeta implying they would take gladly take Gotenks to fight in the U6 vs. U7 tournament; however, on their own, both Trunks and Goten just aren't strong enough to earn a place in the team. Which means everyone on the team, the likes of Piccolo and Mr. Buu included, are more powerful than them.

Whether this reinforces or confirms the general theory they were below Piccolo during the Buu saga is up to one's judgement. Combined with the effect of having Buuccolo "coming out strongly", instead of a "Buutrunks" or a "Buuten" the moment the fusion was undone, greatly strengthens the general idea they always were below Piccolo indeed.
Which still sounds off for a plethora of reasons, though. Official sources also state Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo at that point, thereby making the kids strong but definitely nothing special.

I think Goten and Trunks are one of those characters with a different level of power in the Anime and the Manga. The Manga and guidebooks strongly imply that Goten is close to Gohan in power, yet in non-Toriyama material, you have stuff like Base Gohan performing better than SS Goten (in the 2nd Broli movie), Krillin fighting him on the lookout (Filler, unsure if this is actually true though), them having trouble against Abo & Kado, etc.

In Toei's continuity, it definitely seems like they're only on par with 18 in their Super Saiyan forms, despite them being able to scare the living shit outta her in the canon material with a simple suppressed Ki Blast. So I wouldn't use Super as an argument at all.

[dragonball0900]

To further clarify things: Dragon Ball Super portrays Goten and Trunks as inferior to Piccolo even during ROF.
We have Vegeta implying they would take gladly take Gotenks to fight in the U6 vs. U7 tournament; however, on their own, both Trunks and Goten just aren't strong enough to earn a place in the team. Which means everyone on the team, the likes of Piccolo and Mr. Buu included, are more powerful than them.

Whether this reinforces or confirms the general theory they were below Piccolo during the Buu saga is up to one's judgement. Combined with the effect of having Buuccolo "coming out strongly", instead of a "Buutrunks" or a "Buuten" the moment the fusion was undone, greatly strengthens the general idea they always were below Piccolo indeed.
Which still sounds off for a plethora of reasons, though. Official sources also state Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo at that point, thereby making the kids strong but definitely nothing special.

I think Goten and Trunks are one of those characters with a different level of power in the Anime and the Manga. The Manga and guidebooks strongly imply that Goten is close to Gohan in power, yet in non-Toriyama material, you have stuff like Base Gohan performing better than SS Goten (in the 2nd Broli movie), Krillin fighting him on the lookout (Filler, unsure if this is actually true though), them having trouble against Abo & Kado, etc.

In Toei's continuity, it definitely seems like they're only on par with 18 in their Super Saiyan forms, despite them being able to scare the living shit outta her in the canon material with a simple suppressed Ki Blast. So I wouldn't use Super as an argument at all.

Completely agree with this. That's something people should think before using the Super anime as a credible source for power scaling. Toei always thought that just because they are kids, Goten and Trunks have to be weak, which is not true in Toriyama's mind. Goten and Trunks showed a lot of feats that put them way stronger than Android 18, way stronger than Imperfect Cell or Semi Perfect Cell, and possibly stronger than Piccolo.

[Whatever]

To further clarify things: Dragon Ball Super portrays Goten and Trunks as inferior to Piccolo even during ROF.
We have Vegeta implying they would take gladly take Gotenks to fight in the U6 vs. U7 tournament; however, on their own, both Trunks and Goten just aren't strong enough to earn a place in the team. Which means everyone on the team, the likes of Piccolo and Mr. Buu included, are more powerful than them.

Whether this reinforces or confirms the general theory they were below Piccolo during the Buu saga is up to one's judgement. Combined with the effect of having Buuccolo "coming out strongly", instead of a "Buutrunks" or a "Buuten" the moment the fusion was undone, greatly strengthens the general idea they always were below Piccolo indeed.
Which still sounds off for a plethora of reasons, though. Official sources also state Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo at that point, thereby making the kids strong but definitely nothing special.

I think Goten and Trunks are one of those characters with a different level of power in the Anime and the Manga. The Manga and guidebooks strongly imply that Goten is close to Gohan in power, yet in non-Toriyama material, you have stuff like Base Gohan performing better than SS Goten (in the 2nd Broli movie), Krillin fighting him on the lookout (Filler, unsure if this is actually true though), them having trouble against Abo & Kado, etc.

In Toei's continuity, it definitely seems like they're only on par with 18 in their Super Saiyan forms, despite them being able to scare the living shit outta her in the canon material with a simple suppressed Ki Blast. So I wouldn't use Super as an argument at all.

Completely agree with this. That's something people should think before using the Super anime as a credible source for power scaling. Toei always thought that just because they are kids, Goten and Trunks have to be weak, which is not true in Toriyama's mind. Goten and Trunks showed a lot of feats that put them way stronger than Android 18, way stronger than Imperfect Cell or Semi Perfect Cell, and possibly stronger than Piccolo.

Not even close,they have much better showings in the anime than in the manga.In the anime they had a close fight against 18 while in the manga they did not even land a hit on her despite her holding back.

[Darkprince410]

Not even close,they have much better showings in the anime than in the manga.In the anime they had a close fight against 18 while in the manga they did not even land a hit on her despite her holding back.

In the manga though, Ssj Trunks' held back blast was all that they ever used against her before they were disqualified and ran away. The implication there was that she was still weaker than even the held back blast, and that was it. However, the anime included her holding her own for a few moments after against the two of them as Super Saiyans, downplaying their strength considerably.

[Whatever]

Not even close,they have much better showings in the anime than in the manga.In the anime they had a close fight against 18 while in the manga they did not even land a hit on her despite her holding back.

In the manga though, Ssj Trunks' held back blast was all that they ever used against her before they were disqualified and ran away. The implication there was that she was still weaker than even the held back blast, and that was it. However, the anime included her holding her own for a few moments after against the two of them as Super Saiyans, downplaying their strength considerably.

The difference is that in the anime she was clearly trying(and the kids were holding their own against her even in base) while in the manga she hold back so much that her ki blast only made a small crater on the stadium.

By comparing their ki blasts,you can see she hold back way more than Ssj Trunks and before they turned super saiyans she just thought she was fighting just a 'strong human' yet she still had the advantage the whole fight.
If she was weaker than the held back blast then she would not have been able to dodge it.

Furthemore in the 'Yo son goku and his friends return"(both manga and anime version)trunks and goten(base form) fight an enemy that is as strong as 1st form frieza and cannot 1shot said enemy so yeah they are far from 18 in power.

[Darkprince410]

The difference is that in the anime she was clearly trying(and the kids were holding their own against her even in base) while in the manga she hold back so much that her ki blast only made a small crater on the stadium.

By comparing their ki blasts,you can see she hold back way more than Ssj Trunks and before they turned super saiyans she just thought she was fighting just a 'strong human' yet she still had the advantage the whole fight.
If she was weaker than the held back blast then she would not have been able to dodge it.

Furthemore in the 'Yo son goku and his friends return"(both manga and anime version)trunks and goten(base form) fight an enemy that is as strong as 1st form frieza and cannot 1shot said enemy so yeah they are far from 18 in power.

#18 never used a ki blast against them in the manga, and doesn't fight them in the manga when they're in their Ssj forms. The only thing she did against them in the manga after they transformed was throw the Kienzan at them to disqualify them.

In both the manga and anime, in their base forms, they were only doing well against her because she thought she was fighting a normal human. She was not "trying" any more in the anime than she was the manga when in their base forms, but given that she was shown being able to hold her own against them in their Ssj forms in the anime (after they were exposed), that discredits that she had a far harder time against them in the anime.

The 2008 JSAT special only confirms that Abo and Cado were first form Freeza strength when it came to the manga adaptation, and in that same manga adaptation the boys effortlessly dispatched them, forcing them to merge to Aka after only two blows each. The anime version doesn't make it as crystal clear as to which form of Freeza is being mentioned, and offered contradictory information on that account (such as Goku needing to transform to Ssj to convince Tarble that he was "probably" strong enough to beat them)

[Whatever]

The difference is that in the anime she was clearly trying(and the kids were holding their own against her even in base) while in the manga she hold back so much that her ki blast only made a small crater on the stadium.

By comparing their ki blasts,you can see she hold back way more than Ssj Trunks and before they turned super saiyans she just thought she was fighting just a 'strong human' yet she still had the advantage the whole fight.
If she was weaker than the held back blast then she would not have been able to dodge it.

Furthemore in the 'Yo son goku and his friends return"(both manga and anime version)trunks and goten(base form) fight an enemy that is as strong as 1st form frieza and cannot 1shot said enemy so yeah they are far from 18 in power.

#18 never used a ki blast against them in the manga, and doesn't fight them in the manga when they're in their Ssj forms. The only thing she did against them in the manga after they transformed was throw the Kienzan at them to disqualify them.

In both the manga and anime, in their base forms, they were only doing well against her because she thought she was fighting a normal human. She was not "trying" any more in the anime than she was the manga when in their base forms, but given that she was shown being able to hold her own against them in their Ssj forms in the anime (after they were exposed), that discredits that she had a far harder time against them in the anime.

The 2008 JSAT special only confirms that Abo and Cado were first form Freeza strength when it came to the manga adaptation, and in that same manga adaptation the boys effortlessly dispatched them, forcing them to merge to Aka after only two blows each. The anime version doesn't make it as crystal clear as to which form of Freeza is being mentioned, and offered contradictory information on that account (such as Goku needing to transform to Ssj to convince Tarble that he was "probably" strong enough to beat them)

Yes she did use a ki blast against them.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
In the anime they put more of a fight against her in contrast with the manga where they did not even land a single hit on her.
She was clearly trying 'more' in the anime since they put more of a fight in the anime version.

In the 2008 special in tarble's mind 1st form frieza is shown and thats obviously the form he was reffering to as only a select few have seen frieza outside of his 1st form,as for Goku he only saw frieza in his 4th form after all,so we can assume thats why he turned super saiyan.
Anyways both the anime and manga version have 2 things in common,Abo and Cado were only 1st form in power and in both versions Goten and Trunks beat them but did not oneshot them,meaning they are only above 1st form in their base forms.

[Darkprince410]

In both cases, she's only using a fraction of her power because she thinks he's just a powerful human. Until they're revealed to be Goten and Trunks, her performance against them is irrelevant, as she's not going all out. However, in the anime, after they're exposed, they're shown fighting evenly with her in their Ssj forms, when this same event doesn't happen in the manga. This being after, in both the anime and manga, she was so panicked by a weakened and held back attack by one of them that she risked killing them just to disqualify them. If she were more powerful than them, she could have easily dispatched them in a way that was less lethal, as it was only random luck that they ripped the suit and dodged the Ki-enzan. Both the manga and anime initially painted the boys as being stronger than #18, but the anime reeled it back with the later scenes of them fighting her while Ssj and she being able to hold her own.

As for the JSAT special, again, the anime version doesn't establish which version of Freeza Tarble was comparing him to, and the anime version throws in various elements that are contradictory to determining the specific form. If they were only as powerful as Freeza's first form, for example, why did Goku need to transform to a Super Saiyan to prove he was able to beat when a simple flex of his base form would have been more than enough? Why would Tarble only believe he could "probably" do it (indicating some doubt) if even transforming to Ssj (and the scouter was still working for a brief second at the time)

And no, there can be a huge gap in power and the weaker individual still not be one-shotted. Look at Goku's battle with Freeza during the Freeza arc, for example. There were moments there where Goku was taking blows from 50% Freeza while he wasn't boosting himself with the Kaiou-ken, yet Goku wasn't getting one shot. A gap of 20x or higher (as Goku's strength waned) and Goku was still able to keep going. As such, the boys could both be drastically stronger than Abo and Cado and still not one-shot them.