Was Majin Vegeta SSJ2 the entire time?

[Xeztin]

I was always under the assumption that Majin Vegeta was in SSJ2 from start to finish. I've seen people say "SSJ Majin Vegeta" as in he was in SSJ1 at some point in time. Which is true? I've also always assumed Majin Vegeta (SSJ2) > SSJ2 Vegeta.

[8000 Saiyan]

I was always under the assumption that Majin Vegeta was in SSJ2 from start to finish. I've seen people say "SSJ Majin Vegeta" as in he was in SSJ1 at some point in time. Which is true?

During his time as Majin Vegeta, he was indeed a SSJ2. But he was also a SSJ1.

[Grimlock]

No, when Majin Vegeta first appeared he was Super Saiyan. There are no lightnings from there up until his fight against Goku. There's also Goku being surprised when Vegeta powered up into his Super Saiyan 2 form. If Vegeta was Super Saiyan 2 since the beginning, it would be commented or Goku would be surprised earlier.

[Xeztin]

No, when Majin Vegeta first appeared he was Super Saiyan. There are no lightnings from there up until his fight against Goku. There's also Goku being surprised when Vegeta powered up into his Super Saiyan 2 form. If Vegeta was Super Saiyan 2 since the beginning, it would be commented or Goku would be surprised earlier.

This was in manga right? (I take the manga more seriously over the anime) i can't remember myself
Also is Majin stronger than normal?

[mute_proxy]

It's true, Vegeta was SS1 at first in the manga at least

[Darkprince410]

No, when Majin Vegeta first appeared he was Super Saiyan. There are no lightnings from there up until his fight against Goku. There's also Goku being surprised when Vegeta powered up into his Super Saiyan 2 form. If Vegeta was Super Saiyan 2 since the beginning, it would be commented or Goku would be surprised earlier.

This was in manga right? (I take the manga more seriously over the anime) i can't remember myself
Also is Majin stronger than normal?

Yes, we see Vegeta, prior to Goku transforming to Ssj2 and him following suit, remaining in his regular Ssj form

When Vegeta was under the spell cast by Babi-di, his power was brought out beyond its natural limits, which is why he wanted it to be cast on him to begin with, so that he could close the gap between him and Goku. Him as an Ssj2 at that point was stronger than his Ssj2 form normally was, but whether that power-up remained following the spell being removed from him or not is unknown.

[Son_Gohan]

I was always under the assumption that Majin Vegeta was in SSJ2 from start to finish. I've seen people say "SSJ Majin Vegeta" as in he was in SSJ1 at some point in time. Which is true? I've also always assumed Majin Vegeta (SSJ2) > SSJ2 Vegeta.

It's never explicitly stated in the story or supplementary material about which form Majin Vegeta is in when he first appears. The reader is free to believe what they want.

Personally, I don't see how it would make much sense for him not to be Super Saiyan 2. Babidi was stated to have drawn his power past his limits, which was contained within that form. And if Vegeta's reason for transforming in the first place was to be able to resist Babidi's mind control, than SSJ1 power would be insufficient for that, as shown by Dabura who was stated to be at Cell's level.

[Darkprince410]

I was always under the assumption that Majin Vegeta was in SSJ2 from start to finish. I've seen people say "SSJ Majin Vegeta" as in he was in SSJ1 at some point in time. Which is true? I've also always assumed Majin Vegeta (SSJ2) > SSJ2 Vegeta.

Personally, I don't see how it would make much sense for him not to be Super Saiyan 2. Babidi was stated to have drawn his power past his limits, which was contained within that form. And if Vegeta's reason for transforming in the first place was to be able to resist Babidi's mind control, than SSJ1 power would be insufficient for that, as shown by Dabura who was stated to be at Cell's level.

It wouldn't make sense though for what we saw, as we saw him in the distinctive Ssj aura throughout the entirety of his time between the spell being cast on him to when he powered up to fight Goku. Vegeta transforming when fighting against the mind control may not have been a situation of doing it in order to try and resist (thinking that powering up would make it harder), but as a product of him struggling to resist it (i.e he transformed because he was resisting it, not transforming in order to resist it).

It also wouldn't make sense for Goku to only transform to Super Saiyan initially to combat him (as seen when they were still at the Budoukai arena) if Vegeta were at Ssj2 and putting out Ssj2 levels of power.

[mute_proxy]

I was always under the assumption that Majin Vegeta was in SSJ2 from start to finish. I've seen people say "SSJ Majin Vegeta" as in he was in SSJ1 at some point in time. Which is true? I've also always assumed Majin Vegeta (SSJ2) > SSJ2 Vegeta.

It's never explicitly stated in the story or supplementary material about which form Majin Vegeta is in when he first appears. The reader is free to believe what they want.

Personally, I don't see how it would make much sense for him not to be Super Saiyan 2. Babidi was stated to have drawn his power past his limits, which was contained within that form. And if Vegeta's reason for transforming in the first place was to be able to resist Babidi's mind control, than SSJ1 power would be insufficient for that, as shown by Dabura who was stated to be at Cell's level.

It doesnt matter what the reader believes in this case. There is visual evidence, the same intensity of aura and lightning bolts as Goku has when he's powered up to ss2 for the fight, which none of is present on either of them before their fight. This is a manga, visual evidence is as important if not more than what's not written in speech bubles.

[Son_Gohan]

It wouldn't make sense though for what we saw, as we saw him in the distinctive Ssj aura throughout the entirety of his time between the spell being cast on him to when he powered up to fight Goku. Vegeta transforming when fighting against the mind control may not have been a situation of doing it in order to try and resist (thinking that powering up would make it harder), but as a product of him struggling to resist it (i.e he transformed because he was resisting it, not transforming in order to resist it).

It also wouldn't make sense for Goku to only transform to Super Saiyan initially to combat him (as seen when they were still at the Budoukai arena) if Vegeta were at Ssj2 and putting out Ssj2 levels of power.

Vegeta never reverts from the form throughout the entire time he is possessed and we see him power up again while resisting Babidi's control the second time, so there would appear to be a correlation. Super Saiyan forms are also known to affect the Saiyan's psychology, where SSJ2 specifically intensifies the Saiyan's true, cruel nature to the extreme (which Vegeta explicitly stated he wanted to become once again). So I find it only makes sense for Vegeta to become the form that would most allow him to achieve that, where he had reached his limits, and that would increase his power and aggressiveness to a level where he could adequately resist Babidi's mind control.

Goku hadn't made up his mind to fight Vegeta yet when he transforms, he only came to that decision after some deliberation. That transformation could be seen more as a defense mechanism in response to feeling threatened, similar to when they transform into SSJ while inside Super Buu's body, even though they had no intention of fighting him in that state.

It doesnt matter what the reader believes in this case. There is visual evidence, the same intensity of aura and lightning bolts as Goku has when he's powered up to ss2 for the fight, which none of is present on either of them before their fight. This is a manga, visual evidence is as important if not more than what's not written in speech bubles.

Majin Vegeta actually does display lightning and a intense aura for a brief moment before his fight with Goku, while resisting Babidi's mind control. So even by your criteria of visual evidence, there is enough reason for a reader to believe Vegeta was in the form initially.

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta never reverts from the form throughout the entire time he is possessed and we see him power up again while resisting Babidi's control the second time, so there would appear to be a correlation. Super Saiyan forms are also known to affect the Saiyan's psychology, where SSJ2 specifically intensifies the Saiyan's true, cruel nature to the extreme (which Vegeta explicitly stated he wanted to become once again). So I find it only makes sense for Vegeta to become the form that would most allow him to achieve that, where he had reached his limits, and that would increase his power and aggressiveness to a level where he could adequately resist Babidi's mind control.

Goku hadn't made up his mind to fight Vegeta yet when he transforms, he only came to that decision after some deliberation. That transformation could be seen more as a defense mechanism in response to feeling threatened, similar to when they transform into SSJ while inside Super Buu's body, even though they had no intention of fighting him in that state.

Vegeta already had Ssj2 before Babi-di used his magic on him though, so that'd be irrelevant to the situation. It was Babi-di's magic to twist and distort his nature, in addition to powering him up, that he wanted (having seeing what that same magic did to Babi-di's henchmen), which he got from it. He wanted the evil that Babi-di using the spell on him would trigger in him, without the actual mind control, which is why he tried fighting it after.

It wasn't until Vegeta undeniably went Ssj2 that Goku felt that the fight would actually take some time, meaning that when Goku went Ssj2 beforehand, he thought it was going to be a quick fight (and stated outright he wanted to end it quickly to avoid feeding Buu energy), and thus the power Vegeta was emitting at the time wasn't Ssj2 tier.

Majin Vegeta actually does display lightning and a intense aura for a brief moment before his fight with Goku, while resisting Babidi's mind control. So even by your criteria of visual evidence, there is enough reason for a reader to believe Vegeta was in the form initially.

One panel of lightning vs. every other panel without basically results in it being a single, erroneous panel. Do you believe that Vegetto was Ssj2 the entire time during his fight with Gohan Buu? His one panel upon transforming showed him with lightning, so by that reasoning, he should be Ssj2. If there's a multitude of panels showing him with just the regular Ssj aura, and Goku's reaction to Vegeta undeniably transforming to Ssj2 suggesting that Vegeta hadn't done so before, that all basically supports Vegeta just being Ssj up until right before his fight with Goku.

[mute_proxy]

Majin Vegeta actually does display lightning and a intense aura for a brief moment before his fight with Goku, while resisting Babidi's mind control. So even by your criteria of visual evidence, there is enough reason for a reader to believe Vegeta was in the form initially.

No, that means he did a little SS2 boost to take control of himself better. They are capable of going between their forms. Am I wrong to think with all the available evidence provided, you still won't choose to agree just out of principal?

[Son_Gohan]

Vegeta already had Ssj2 before Babi-di used his magic on him though, so that'd be irrelevant to the situation. It was Babi-di's magic to twist and distort his nature, in addition to powering him up, that he wanted (having seeing what that same magic did to Babi-di's henchmen), which he got from it. He wanted the evil that Babi-di using the spell on him would trigger in him, without the actual mind control, which is why he tried fighting it after.

It wasn't until Vegeta undeniably went Ssj2 that Goku felt that the fight would actually take some time, meaning that when Goku went Ssj2 beforehand, he thought it was going to be a quick fight (and stated outright he wanted to end it quickly to avoid feeding Buu energy), and thus the power Vegeta was emitting at the time wasn't Ssj2 tier.

One panel of lightning vs. every other panel without basically results in it being a single, erroneous panel. Do you believe that Vegetto was Ssj2 the entire time during his fight with Gohan Buu? His one panel upon transforming showed him with lightning, so by that reasoning, he should be Ssj2. If there's a multitude of panels showing him with just the regular Ssj aura, and Goku's reaction to Vegeta undeniably transforming to Ssj2 suggesting that Vegeta hadn't done so before, that all basically supports Vegeta just being Ssj up until right before his fight with Goku.

If Babidi's not controlling his mind then Vegeta's actions are of his own volition; Goku called him out on it during their fight and it was further proven by his subsequent actions up until he sacrificed himself in order to defeat Majin Buu. He was simply using the possession as a pretense for his behavior to convince Goku to fight him.

Or it was SSJ2 tier power Vegeta was emitting at the time that would lead Goku to safely assume that his own SSJ2 was at a level where he could finish the match quickly, without taking into account the extra power Babidi had given him. I find it to be more far-fetched for Goku to be surprised over Vegeta simply having the form, because simply having the form wouldn't automatically put him at Goku's level, who was expressed to be in a league of his own even above SSJ2 Kid Gohan.

By that rationale, Goku wouldn't be Super Saiyan 2 against Yakon. To judge Majin Vegeta in a way that has already demonstrated to be flawed, would be carelessly making the same mistake, and accentuates the point that if there's no official statement provided you cannot safely conclude that as a matter of fact. Official sources have established that Vegetto was SSJ1 against Majin Buu, none such exist in Initial Majin Vegeta's case.

No, that means he did a little SS2 boost to take control of himself better. They are capable of going between their forms. Am I wrong to think with all the available evidence provided, you still won't choose to agree your mind just out of principal?

Which would contradict the idea of Goku's surprised reaction a few pages later being due to the form itself. Sorry, but it doesn't make sense that way. I've already seen all the objective evidence, you'll find that the official guidebooks would only reinforce my position. So I'm quite comfortable where I stand.

[mute_proxy]

Which would contradict the idea of Goku's surprised reaction a few pages later being due to the form itself. Sorry, but it doesn't make sense that way. I've already seen all the objective evidence, you'll find that the official guidebooks would only reinforce my position. So I'm quite comfortable where I stand.

Goku was not surprised by the form, he was surprised by how much power Vegeta charged up, he sensed his ki, that's why he said "this might take longer than expected". And you yourself said there is no statement in the guidebooks. I really don't understand people like you, using lack of evidence to back up your position, and dismissing visual evidence provided from the foundation of the franchise just out of principle not to admit you're wrong.

[Darkprince410]

If Babidi's not controlling his mind then Vegeta's actions are of his own volition; Goku called him out on it during their fight and it was further proven by his subsequent actions up until he sacrificed himself in order to defeat Majin Buu. He was simply using the possession as a pretense for his behavior to convince Goku to fight him.

Or it was SSJ2 tier power Vegeta was emitting at the time that would lead Goku to safely assume that his own SSJ2 was at a level where he could finish the match quickly, without taking into account the extra power Babidi had given him. I find it to be more far-fetched for Goku to be surprised over Vegeta simply having the form, because simply having the form wouldn't automatically put him at Goku's level, who was expressed to be in a league of his own even above SSJ2 Kid Gohan.

By that rationale, Goku wouldn't be Super Saiyan 2 against Yakon. To judge Majin Vegeta in a way that has already demonstrated to be flawed, would be carelessly making the same mistake, and accentuates the point that if there's no official statement provided you cannot safely conclude that as a matter of fact. Official sources have established that Vegetto was SSJ1 against Majin Buu, none such exist in Initial Majin Vegeta's case.

Vegeta only stopped short of being fully taken over by Babi-di. Babi-di's magic warps and exaggerates the evil within an individual, drawing out their power and forcing them to be his slave, and it was that exaggeration of evil and drawing out his power that Vegeta wanted. As said, if it was solely about power, then Vegeta's dialogue wouldn't heavily indicate that he needed Babi-di's magic to make him as evil as he was before, as he already had the Ssj2 transformation prior to the spell being cast on him.

Nothing implies that Vegeta was holding back his power in whatever form he was using prior to powering up to fight Goku, so Vegeta revealing the form would easily be enough for Goku to both react in shock and realize that the fight was going to take longer than he thought it would.

In Goku's case against Yakon though, it was established multiple times afterward that Goku had used Ssj2 there, so no, it's not flawed. Therefore, again, we have a situation of one erroneous panel with lightning when all other times, until the confirmed moment of transformation, where he's exhibiting the regular Ssj aura.

[Son_Gohan]

Goku was not surprised by the form, he was surprised by how much power Vegeta charged up, he sensed his ki, that's why he said "this might take longer than expected". And you yourself said there is no statement in the guidebooks. I really don't understand people like you, using lack of evidence to back up your position, and dismissing visual evidence provided from the foundation of the franchise just out of principle not to admit you're wrong.

That's right, the context had nothing to do with the form. Thank you for finally admitting to that. Need I remind you that I wasn't arguing for one position over the other, but was simply giving my own opinion on it. The only one who has been proven wrong here was you, when saying "the same intensity of aura and lightning bolts as Goku has when he's powered up to ss2 for the fight, which none of is present on either of them before their fight". That is demonstrably false as such an instance was then provided to you; instead of admitting you were wrong and just leaving it at that, you keep rationalizing and asserting your opinion as some fact, compelled to change peoples views. Unfortunately I've been around long enough to understand people like you all too well, and also know that the guidebooks would support me on this if I chose to fully engage in debate about it. There is no statement regarding Initial Majin Vegeta directly within the supplementary material but there are statements that would dismiss your perception of "visual evidence".

Vegeta only stopped short of being fully taken over by Babi-di. Babi-di's magic warps and exaggerates the evil within an individual, drawing out their power and forcing them to be his slave, and it was that exaggeration of evil and drawing out his power that Vegeta wanted. As said, if it was solely about power, then Vegeta's dialogue wouldn't heavily indicate that he needed Babi-di's magic to make him as evil as he was before, as he already had the Ssj2 transformation prior to the spell being cast on him.

Nothing implies that Vegeta was holding back his power in whatever form he was using prior to powering up to fight Goku, so Vegeta revealing the form would easily be enough for Goku to both react in shock and realize that the fight was going to take longer than he thought it would.

In Goku's case against Yakon though, it was established multiple times afterward that Goku had used Ssj2 there, so no, it's not flawed. Therefore, again, we have a situation of one erroneous panel with lightning when all other times, until the confirmed moment of transformation, where he's exhibiting the regular Ssj aura.

Going by Kibito's description of it, Babidi's magic merely manipulates the evil that is already within that individual to do his bidding, it doesn't intensify or add on to it. Which is how Goku would be able to tell that Vegeta was just putting on an act because if he had truly become more demonic, it would show through in his Ki signature, and no such distinction was ever made.

Nothing implies Goku wouldn't expect Vegeta to have SSJ2 after 7 years, just as Vegeta did of him. What we know for a fact is that Goku was explicitly shown to have forgotten that Babidi's magic could raise a person's power until Vegeta brings up the subject. So it would only make consistent sense for Goku's prior reaction to be attributed to that lack of information.

I'm not saying the instance itself is flawed; I'm saying your visual interpretation of it would be flawed. If there was no statement provided to tell you that he used Super Saiyan 2, you would be saying right now that he was Super Saiyan 1 the entire time without even questioning it at all. Unfortunately, not every instance is packaged with a statement telling us what form they are in. Which goes back to my initial point that if no statement is provided, you cannot state with absolute certainty whether they are SSJ1 or SSJ2, all you can do is give your opinion. I don't see why you continue trying to argue against that.