Did Goku and Vegeta reach their limits?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
DB▪Magnum-Expert
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Did Goku and Vegeta reach their limits?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:29 am

Did Goku and Vegeta reach their limits? Ever since episode 30, this issue started roaming over all Dragon Ball Z communities. The concept of someone in Dragon Ball Z reaching their "limits" in terms of getting stronger has never been an issue. Limits are purposely made to break them, not to stop by them. This Corner in Dragon Ball is what usually drives characters to get stronger, to surpass their built-in limitations which limits further improvements. There are also the misconceptions of Zenkai Boosts, Which will be covered here too. I will be discussing whether Goku and Vegeta really did reach their limits or not

This will be a small discussion...

1) Episode 30 confirmations.

Image

So in this episode, everything about the tournament is being reviewed by the narrator and Vegeta with help from goku to krillin, just so Krillin would fully understand the situation, since he originally thought it was but a mere picnic. But at the end of the episode, Goku suggests Piccolo to join them but Piccolo cannot stand their noise and thus decides to meditate alone. It was confirmed that the Room of Spirit and Time will be fully reconstructed and made in the next day of when this conversation has happened and took place. Goku suggests Vegeta to enter. However...

Here the controversy starts. Vegeta said that he and goku are near their limits. Is that true? Based on the forwardness of Vegeta, it could be possible..... or could it?

You see, all this time, we've been seeing characters trying to overcome walls and barriers to a new level of power. To an extent so that they can keep up with more powerful characters above them later on, and always stay in top, because there will always be someone stronger than you, so you should face your built-in limits and kick them so they can cover up more height. Vegeta statement has no proof to be credible at the SAME moment.

Why did I capitalize "Same"? Simply because I'm talking about the current situation. The current situation is going on to the relation of Goku and Vegeta willing to fight the universe 6 fighters. However there is no further confirmation that the universe 6 fighters will be anything special, average, or extraordinary. Heck, they might've been fodder, or even almighty for all we're concerned about. The suggestion its own from goku has something off itself. Goku specifically wants to train and get stronger than normal, he knows he can surpass his old self by a lot, but Vegeta answers him that they've already reached their limits which is so sudden. I mean, Vegeta no longer wanna train? Then goku answers him regarding the subject, where goku doesn't care about improving much or little, which is still vague. Goku likes to get stronger than usual. This greatly signifies that Goku is doing that for the soul purpose to convince Vegeta to enter with him. Goku further contradicts himself in:

When he said that if he and Vegeta won't try hard enough, they won't close the gap between (hypothetical) monaka and them. But didn't goku said "Even a little"? Regardless of the position, working hard doesn't equate to getting a bit stronger.

Some arguments might come to me and start saying "since goku reached his limits, even if he trains hard he won't get stronger much"

1) That's what we're arguing over. Limits in Dragon Ball Z are supposed to be broken. By that logic, Goku must've never prevailed in breaking his limitations, which directly applies to Vegeta as well. As which, Goku knows how to train well, Vegeta in the cell saga admitted he's a genius when something is about battle, what's more, it was implied Goku surpassed everybody in less than a year combined. Goku never stopped believing in getting stronger and here he is, gotten undoubtfully overpowerful than usual. If that's the case, then there's no reason Vegeta still trains with Whis and wants to surpass Goku, and at first, he said he wanted to surpass Beerus himself.

2) You might come at me with what Vegeta said, about not getting stronger much no matter how many times they train in the Room of Spirit and Time. But this point goes to the same category as the first one, so my answer would stay the same. Adding to this, you need to recall that The suggestion of training is being trained with you RIVAL.

2) Statements from Episode 30

Image

So the image above actually shows what I'm talking about Above.

The entire event contradicts itself.

Surprisingly, going says he'd get 3 years WORTH of training. Surely, It's gonna obviously be worth training and that's a fact. You will believe this more later on this blog. This signifies how 3 years of training would be so beneficial, how important is it to train in order to surpass your current limits. It's kinda funny how Vegeta would state something like that, even though he has multiple goals with his power, and best one of them are:

1) Surpassing Goku

2) Becoming Number 1 and surpassing Beerus

3) Just to become stronger than before, surpass his old self, stay on top, and never slack off.

Just the thought of it is kinda annoying right?

Here's proof that Vegeta WASN'T SAYING THE TRUTH:

Image

Vegeta didn't want to go with Goku, that's a fact.

"You'll go Vegeta, right?"

"Not with you"

Meaning Vegeta intended for this so he wouldn't go with goku. I mean, really. There's no questioning about it.

Still unquantifiable because Vegeta says "why go to such lengths?". It totally rocketed outside logic here. But still with many contradictions it'll be proven wrong no matter what.

3) Confirmations from Dragon Ball Z

In Dragon Ball Z, zenkai boosts have been widely respected and shown.

One time it has been shown is when Vegeta fought Qui:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Vegeta proves that the more he fights, the stronger he gets. For Vegeta, getting this powerful must've been a regular routine. It's part of saiyans and their cells. The more they get into near-death situations, then get healed up, the stronger they get. Moreover, it increases their versatility, Which makes them capable of adapting in situations even better, which gives them more room to increase their endurance.

Point from Daizenshuu:

Daizenshuu implies that the increase of Zenkai is no longer needed to think about...?

Image

Does it really mean "small"?

In actuality, no. Think about it harder. The power gaps later in mainly the Buu saga, are just not THAT much wide so increase in powers won't be much affecting, otherwise that would be contradicting cell getting A zenkai boost which he kept fapping about:

Image

Which will be shown down

And here the more we go about it, the more it's proven to be honest. It's a natural thing for saiyans to begin with.

And the fact that they can break their Limits furthers the point beyond regularity, which already debunks that statement. But I'll give more proof.

The daizenshuu Statement is explained by Herms down that it is most likely related to Battle powers, not mainly zenkai boosts. Just part of it.

Here's what I mean in the Buu Saga:

Image
Image
Image
Image

Here, Buu is implying that the power gap isn't that much. Also at that time it would have been Gohan because of his Ultimate form, the zenkai boost feature have been reduced. You need to remember that Ultimate form greatly pushes up your potential further beyond, and training on it would become much overload, just like Gohan from Dragon Ball Super on Episode 89.

But even if you disregard that, you can look at how Vegeta in base form was gonna kill FAT BUU with a single blast after Vegeta was healed:

Image
Image

You can argue about his guard. But now we're talking about buu. Who's, without needing to be on guard, can regenerate and needs to be atomized so he can die, could be further. The thing is, DBZ developed resistance to ki atomization from DB to DBZ with many confirmations behind their back. So the output energy must be so high.

Before some people get me and say he was scared of him, no. Vegeta wasn't scared of him. The context clearly proves by direct statement even that Vegeta was scared that Good Buu might some day five birth to that DEVASTATING buu, which is a reference to Kid Buu.

4) A Proof from Movies

Image

Which obviously I'm going with Movie 10, by Broly. Broly was shitted on by goku at the end and catastrophic occurrences damaged broly like hell, until he was thrown to Earth, yet Still survived. He surely must have took sometime to heal and he did, getting him astronomically stronger.

As the scan above shows, Daizenshuu 6, for movies and films, quite clearly proves that he got stronger. Another description entry of him says he got Stronger.

The one about Gohan, furthers it. Gohan was humiliated by his power increase when he saw his comparison to Broly's increase. He thought his base form would be enough to deal with Broly, the guy who was curbstomped everybody in Movie 8.

This alone must be obvious, it was clear zenkai boost.

5) Extra Narration and Character Confirmation

Image

The narrator here quite CLEARLY implies that Goku gets stronger due to regular training AND zenkai boosts due to his saiyan cells which gives him that so. Since he got that on him, He gets stronger than more normal. This is a really good part on saiyans, it shows how much their beings are dedicated to battling and getting stronger.

I mean, goku was destroying himself:

Image
Image

Here's further proof From Vegeta, Frieza and Goku that saiyans can INFINITELY increase:

Image

Which also breaks down DBS Manga with it's evidences of Vegeta getting stronger at an astronomical scale although him trying to debunk himself and trunks saying otherwise, furthered in his fight with Black:

Image

Which obviously means that they KEEP getting stronger.

That's why, Trunks got stronger when he went against Black for an ENTIRE YEAR trying to get stronger and trying to beat him. While trying, He suffered defeat multiple times but kept getting back stronger. The difference in power between Future Buu Saga Trunks and Black is just so huge in terms of even realms. That's why Zenkais on that scale would completely differ.

Meaning: No they didn't

Please give me your thoughts on the matter. It would be delightful...
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy: