Is SSJ2 2x Grade 1 or Grade 4?

[Almighty Majin]

This is something that I have been wondering regarding the boost that SSJ2 gives to the Saiyans and I was wondering if they meant that SSJ2 is actually 2x the mastered SSJ state?

[Dai-Saiyajin]

I think it's 2 x Mastered SSJ.

The mastered SSJ probably is 3 or 4 times stronger than a grade 1 SSJ, with Grade 2 being 1.5~2.5x stronger than Grade 1 and Grade 3 being 6~7 times stronger.

[Kaboom]

They're the same thing. There's no indication in either the manga or the various guidebooks that mastering Super Saiyan causes it to actually grant more power. Even the original anime comic thing that gave it the "Grade 4" ranking still said nothing about it being stronger than anything else.

Super Saiyan Grade Four
A form where without consciously raising their ki they are still able to remain Super Saiyan on a regular basis: that's Grade Four. From the start Grade One balanced power, energy consumption, etc. This form removes the slightly agitated state which characterizes Grade One. It's a natural form of Super Saiyan which has even gotten rid of their wild personality!

In fact, what Goku says about sticking to the regular, balanced Super Saiyan being best indicates that it's the same amount of power, just used better. All it did was allow Goku and Gohan to gain a lot more power overall through training from being able to remain transformed indefinitely.

So Super Saiyan, whether mastered or not, is the BPx50 boost it's been since forever, and SS2 is 2x stronger than the mastered version, leaving it at 100x base.

[Darkprince410]

Full-power Super Saiyan isn't any more powerful than the regular Super Saiyan form. Full-power Super Saiyan simply has nearly no stress or drain associated with the form like Ssj normally has, allowing the power that would normally be burned to be used for fighting itself, giving them a lot more staying power.

Picture two identical vehicles, with tanks full of identical levels and types of fuel and on identical tracks of road. Now, puncture a big hole in the gas tank of one of the vehicles and then puncture an extremely tiny hole in the other in the same spot. After, have them travel down the tracks of road at the max speed the vehicles can. Both are going to be able to go the exact same speeds, but the one with the large hole is going to end up burning through all their fuel first because so much of it is just draining away, thus resulting in it needing to stop far sooner. Therein lies the only actual difference between the two forms. The regular Super Saiyan form is the vehicle with the large hole in the tank and Full-power Super Saiyan is the vehicle with the small hole.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

It depends on the user.

This is completely supported by the manga. MSsj gives more boost, and nothing contradicted it.

Here is Proof that MSsj >>>> Ssj in terms of power boost:

[spoiler]First, I'll need to say, "transforming" into a super saiyan is simply a saiyan mutation, Saiyans can undergo, which gives then a "power up" to their base forms without loss of any stats.

Whis's explaination:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/4ddaf6e6032e ... 350_hq.jpg

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/f97fe606fc78 ... 5a0_hq.jpg

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/8a60d3965cea ... 4d5_hq.jpg

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/a163bb4a0a29 ... 270_hq.jpg

It's achieved by anger. Which DBS Anime proved as well, which also goes Alongside DBS Manga and DBZ itself.

What's the multiplier of it?

This is easy to answer.

Daizenshuu says it's 50x Base:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/battle ... png?x34200

Super Exciting Guide character volume does as well:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/battle ... g-ssj1.png

Now, what are the grades of Ssj?

1) Normal Ssj, which Is basically a strain to your body at first.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/dra ... 1216111642

In this form, everything is balanced but you can very well control them all. Also, you can use the Ssj potential.

2) Ssj Grade 2. That's the form Vegeta underwent.

http://pm1.narvii.com/6131/c72650847041 ... da4_hq.jpg

3) Ultra Ssj (Ssj Grade 3). This is the form trunks went to fight perfect cell.

http://pm1.narvii.com/6131/4d5773f0ec75 ... 50e_hq.jpg

The thing is, this form is 10x regular Ssj, meaning 500x base form!

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/33984978f38a ... 863_hq.jpg

But it slows you down. It pushes the strength 10x regularity, while your speed stays the same, which implies that your power level wouldn't even change if you undergo it. Power Levels are factors of all stats, which Vegeta said. If is power level increases, so his speed and other stats

Btw, all these grades till now are part of the Ssj potential.

5) Mastered Ssj (Grade 4). It's shown to be a Grade of its own here:

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... -DGR5f.jpg

Full power Super Saiyan is a transformation which makes them capable of unconciously staying at that form, with that, they unlock the full potential boost of a Super Saiyan.

Mastered Ssj is:

1) Ssj state.

2) MASTERY of the form.

3) Perfect Use of Stats and balance.

4) Use ALL SSJ potential.

5) Having Ssj as your form.

Goku says that Ultra Ssj would waste too much energy, implying that it's still not the main potential of Ssj because it drains the main core of energy:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/34ce2a2d3c4a ... b87_hq.jpg

Wasting Ssj is not an option. Yet EVEN that, it gets you 10x stronger than regular Ssj and that's not the full potential of a Ssj.

Goku explains that a regular Ssj is the best one with balance in stats, but not strongest at all, so Goku wanna MASTER the form with balanced stats, if he does that and remove the nervousness and strain,

1) He'd be able to contain ALL of the Ssj potential.

2) He would be able to control the form easier and get stronger way faster.

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/c0857d1f22d8 ... 893_hq.jpg

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/c523c1ef40a8 ... 9d5_hq.jpg

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/9e84d02a76a5 ... ccc_hq.jpg

It seems you can easily get stronger with it as goku says after they master it, they will train with the most basic training lmao. It's like he's also sure he'd be a lot strong.

Meaning 500x base isn't the full potential of The Ssj transformation, but fat more, yes FAR!

I'll explain in a bit.

And just like Goku said, he and Gohan started:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/1d5fe64e31bc ... 6cc_hq.jpg

But then after time, they became so powerful they no longer need to train even further:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/6323d139a1fc ... 3fc_hq.jpg

When they got out, Vegeta felt that They are at Ssj but there's something different:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/cb44b3081b43 ... 429_hq.jpg

This could refer to the air around them and how they are moving normally, just like how the Subbed version of the anime states by Vegeta. But could also refer to Multiplier difference, which can be furthered by Piccolo's reaction when he saw Gohan and says that he got a lot stronger even though Gohan is suppressed.

It goes so far to the point that tien questions about it. Piccolo explains it further.

But when Trunks asks that if he can get stronger, Vegeta answers this:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/71f6836ddceb ... 909_hq.jpg

But why would Vegeta mention muscle weight? Muscle weight occurs with Trunks's case. But what Vegeta stated Proves that Goku can get so strong yet without Muscle effect. But muscle effect appears if your Ssj form is 10x Ssj right? Like trunks, yet Goku doesn't have that but vegeta still mentions that there ISN'T, yet the power is there and even beyond.

MSsj Multiplier > USsj >>>> Ssj

In the cell games Goku goes on powering up his Ssj form:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/74effde1520c ... 2f8_hq.jpg

Meaning EVEN after what Vegeta stated he wasn't even aware of Goku's true ki amount.

MSsj >> Vegeta's expectations over MSsj > USsj >>>> Ssj

You can go over and say it's simply 50x Base but Base Goku grew stronger.

Debunking:

1) Goku was training with his Ssj form, he wasn't training in his base. Don't forget that Goku when he was training for Mastery of Ssj to get the main potential of Ssj fully. If he released the potential of Ssj, then he'd be way stronger as Ssj so Base wouldn't matter to him.

2) Point 1 is supported in DBS, Goku trained in his Ssj form so he could get his Ssj form STRONGER, but forgot his base. Whis wants to correct this action by letting Goku train in base. But Goku seems to already understand according to whis, where he said "till now he didn't transform into a Ssj". This could be because Goku already achieved the extend of the Ssj potential.

3) it's been put as a higher grade than any grade below it.

4) This would beat Whis's logic that training in Ssj would be less effective, so if here potential of Ssj isn't quite unlocked, it means Base Goku must've got a BIT stronger but MSsj is waaaaaaaaaaay above Ssj.

Check what Krillin said:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/545056243f97 ... 28d_hq.jpg

Krillin sensed Ultra Ssj Trunks ki, he thought he could beat him, but NOWHERE NEAR as confident as When he sensed Goku's ki right now, meaning MSsj >>>> USsj.

Cell powered up:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/d481f767e6b2 ... 386_hq.jpg

Yet nowhere near full, and he is still above goku, meaning when cell told trunks he is stronger than him, he must've meant the power he is using INFRONT OF CELL.

While fighting Cell starts to destroy the heck out of Goku but Goku still manages to hold his own.

Look at what trunks says:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/dc8bfbd52ca4 ... 30c_hq.jpg

Now you might think that if all of them go against Cell, they'd win, but no. Look exactly at what he said:

"We should be able to beat him NOW", this refers to a weakened, suppressed, and injured + tired cell. Meaning only THIS cell can be defeated by all of their powers combined (z fighters). But does that include Gohan? No, They thought that Gohan is even weaker than Piccolo, well if that's the case, then that would include a Gohan who's thought to be weaker than Piccolo.

Considering trunks's statement appeared at a time where cell is at THIS state, meaning all of them together < Cell. Yet Goku is alone best choice, meaning MSsj > All z fighters (including all the powers they have to offer). It's said Generally.

If MSsj makes Goku THIS strong, then this is something ridiculous.

By lowball, let alone downplay, MSsj >> 1,000x Base. That's LOWBALL OR EVEN DOWNPLAY.

More backup:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/b55e006258bb ... c16_hq.jpg

Vegeta seems to say that Goku > all of them yet Cell >> Goku. Trunks even implies it that he wants all of them to go there because they feels helpless. Vegeta also seems to imply something like "Cell is 2 steps ahead of Goku, that means we have no chance!"

'We' is exactly the case.

Vegeta:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/f5f0afe2e9fd ... 4b8_hq.jpg

Goku:

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/a12a81a41fe8 ... 09c_hq.jpg

Meaning if Gohan can't do it, no one can come close to it even if they consider all options (which includes team up).

Goku didn't expect Gohan to have Ssj2 THAT powerful as he was worried when cell showed his full power so it's even better.

So this completely proves MSsj >>>> USsj (In terms of power boosting)

This is further supported in DBS.

Base Form Vegeta is equal to Base Form Cabba:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yet when Cabba went Ssj and vegeta got serious IN SSJ (He's serious in base as shown), he does this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta trained hard enough for the matter and proved his strength. His base is proven equal, the issue is as I showed Above, would be the mutation.

Oh and this guide was contradicted:

http://i48.tinypic.com/1038s2p.jpg[/spoiler]

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I apologize for some spelling mistakes, I didn't review my reply because I rushed a bit since I'm busy now. I'll reply and fix later

[Tectorman]

It's 2x Grade 4, but then we have to get into the difference between Grade 4 and Grade 1. The obvious explanation is that both are just as much of a boost as each other and Grade 4 just has minimal stamina issues. I, however, think there is a difference in power benefit based on how Vegeta and Goku approach improving the form in the Cell Saga.

When Vegeta faces Semi-Perfect Cell, he immediately goes to Grade 2 at a point in the series where I believe he would be of the attitude where he would let his opponents have a free shot at a lesser power level if he believed he could handle it, just to power up later to crush them. Indeed, after S-P Cell powers up to full, Vegeta lets him have a free punch.

So, I believe that is Vegeta's Grade 1 was enough to handle S-P Cell, he would have fought in that form first. That he doesn't, that he uses Grade 2 at the start, tells me that Grade 2 is a direct improvement over everything about Grade 1 (power, strength, speed, all of it).

But when Goku starts experimenting with the Grades, he dismisses both Grade 3 and Grade 2 in favor of improving Grade 1. He dismisses Grade 3 mostly because of its speed issues, but he still decided to master Grade 1 over mastering Grade 2*. That tells me that the resulting Grade 4 was an improvement over everything Grade 2 could have offered, even taking into account Goku getting overall stronger.

Ergo, even from the same starting power level, Grade 4 > Grade 2 > Grade 1.

*There's also the fact that Goku decides to master Grade 1 at all. Before he makes that decision, he has Grade 1, Grade 2, and Grade 3, none of which he has mastered, all of which should have the potential to BE mastered, as far as he knows. Okay, he dismisses Grade 3 because of speed and energy drain, but that still leaves Grade 1 and Grade 2 that he could master. He could master Grade 1 and improve that form or he could master Grade 2 and improve that form. According to Vegeta v S-P Cell, Grade 2 improves everything Grade 1 has, so, logically, starting with a more powerful form (Grade 2) and devoting time to master it should result in more improvement than spending the same amount of time mastering a less powerful form (Grade 1).

But that's not what happens. Goku decides to take the less powerful form and master it, confident somehow that this will still result in the most improvement. Okay, why? How does that make sense?

IMO, for that sequence of events to be plausible, Goku either NEEDS to know or suspect that Grade 1 has more potential for improvement (1), or he NEEDS to know or suspect that Grade 2 just doesn't have that same potential (2), or both (3).

The secret, I think, lies in remembering what contributes to the SSJ transformation (pure heart + pure rage) and in how Goku describes how he plans to improve the form, by "getting rid of that restless feeling" and making the form like their natural form. If we go back to Namek, we know that he didn't have any trouble staying SSJ (he even remained in that form after defeating Frieza and trying to escape). And from the guidebooks, we know that it was a full x50 boost.

What changed? After Yardrat, he figured out how to do it at-will. All well and good, but it also means that he now has to force a state of rage to turn SSJ as opposed to the naturally occurring rage he had on Namek due to Krillin being killed. I.e., his concentration is split. Ever see X-Men First Class? Remember how Magneto told Mystique off for spending so much effort on looking normal instead of focusing on the task at hand?

Okay, same principle. Because Goku has to actively concentrate to maintain the state of rage, he doesn't get the form's full benefit. This also makes it plausible for him to suspect that if he can learn how to stay SSJ without having to actively concentrate, that he can go back to getting the form's full benefit. Which was option (1) above.

To illustrate this:

"Grade 0" (what he used on Namek): x50 (- no drawback due to active concentration because rage is natural), but can't be used at-will

Grade 1 (from Yardrat on): x50 x0.5* (drawback due to active concentration because rage is artificial), but can be used at-will

*rough estimate; the final result is, I believe, still clearly above what Kaioken x20 could give, but nowhere near x50

Grade 4 (from the HTC on): x50 (- no drawback because the state of rage has been so practiced and is so second-nature that even though it's still artificial, it no longer takes effort to concentrate), and it's still at-will

[Darkprince410]

I apologize for some spelling mistakes, I didn't review my reply because I rushed a bit since I'm busy now. I'll reply and fix later

I'll respond to this post rather than your initial one, since I don't want to quote the huge block of text. There are flaws in your evidence though.

The thing is, this form is 10x regular Ssj, meaning 500x base form!

http://pm1.narvii.com/6349/33984978f38a ... 863_hq.jpg

That is not from an official guide created by Shueisha or any group affiliated with Dragon Ball in an official capacity. As such, it has no more weight than if I personally created a guide book and somehow got it published. No official source puts Ssj Grade 3 even twice as strong as the regular Ssj form, much less ten times it.

This could refer to the air around them and how they are moving normally, just like how the Subbed version of the anime states by Vegeta. But could also refer to Multiplier difference, which can be furthered by Piccolo's reaction when he saw Gohan and says that he got a lot stronger even though Gohan is suppressed.

That page you posted isn't a valid translation. Official translations have him specifically referring to not being able to sense their energy and that they're seemingly acting as if it's their normal state.

http://i.imgur.com/NGip2Dh.jpg

But why would Vegeta mention muscle weight? Muscle weight occurs with Trunks's case. But what Vegeta stated Proves that Goku can get so strong yet without Muscle effect. But muscle effect appears if your Ssj form is 10x Ssj right? Like trunks, yet Goku doesn't have that but vegeta still mentions that there ISN'T, yet the power is there and even beyond.

Again, faulty translation. Vegeta only mentions the strain associated with the normal Ssj form, and that getting used to it minimizes the stress normally associated with it. Nothing about the muscle weight at all.

http://i.imgur.com/CdybNQM.jpg

1) Goku was training with his Ssj form, he wasn't training in his base. Don't forget that Goku when he was training for Mastery of Ssj to get the main potential of Ssj fully. If he released the potential of Ssj, then he'd be way stronger as Ssj so Base wouldn't matter to him.

Training in the Ssj form isn't independent of the base form though. Training the Ssj form increases the base form as well at 1/50th the rate (boosting the Ssj form by 50 million increases the base by 1 million).

2) Point 1 is supported in DBS, Goku trained in his Ssj form so he could get his Ssj form STRONGER, but forgot his base. Whis wants to correct this action by letting Goku train in base. But Goku seems to already understand according to whis, where he said "till now he didn't transform into a Ssj". This could be because Goku already achieved the extend of the Ssj potential.

That's not the point of Whis's training and his comment about them not transforming. If they start as Super Saiyans during their training, then the work they'd need to do for effective results would be far greater than if they trained in their base forms. Using my aforementioned scenario above, it'd take them training to get a 50 million increase in their Ssj form to equate to training in their base forms for a one million increase. A lot more work for the same overall gain. Thus, them training in their base forms would net them the most efficient boost as far as strength increase vs. time.

Considering trunks's statement appeared at a time where cell is at THIS state, meaning all of them together < Cell. Yet Goku is alone best choice, meaning MSsj > All z fighters (including all the powers they have to offer). It's said Generally.

All that would have to mean is Goku's base is just that much higher than Trunks/Vegeta's, to where their more powerful transformations can't make up the difference.

Base Form Vegeta is equal to Base Form Cabba:

Actually no. Vegeta only suggests that they'd be fairly equal base form wise, and given Cabba was far more winded in both the manga and anime following their scuffle in their base forms, that'd support Vegeta being the stronger. As such, Vegeta being stronger in his base form would just be exacerbated by them going Ssj, as the gap between them would just be that much wider.

Oh and this guide was contradicted:

http://i48.tinypic.com/1038s2p.jpg

No, it wasn't. Not sure why you feel that it was.

[Kaboom]

I don't know why people keep citing that "Grade 3 is 10x more powerful than [Super Saiyan? Grade 2? Which is it supposed to be?]" thing. For one, it makes no sense in light of more recent material, namely the SEG's revelation of SS2 and SS3's boosts, because it would make the form even stronger than Super Saiyan 3. But also, for all intents and purposes it just seems to be an embellishment that the Spanish publishers/writers of that guide added on their own rather than translated from anything reputable.

It's in the same boat as Viz saying that Goku traveled across half of Namek to reach the Freeza fight, or that Goten and Trunks became the "strongest on Earth" at one point during the Majin Boo arc. Nobody uses those things as evidence in debates because they know it's just translator/publisher embellishments. So why use this 10x thing?



Anyhoo, as for why Goku would stick to Super Saiyan instead of using Grade 2, the way I figure is that even though it's not outright useless like Grade 3, the drawbacks of Grade 2 still give it really limited usefulness. It introduces even more stress and energy waste than regular un-mastered Super Saiyan already has, in exchange for what must be a significantly less than 2x power boost since it's not as strong as SS2.

That type of trade-off is only worthwhile if you know that relatively minimal power-up is going to be worth it. It's useful when you're already even with or a bit stronger than your opponent and want to make your power advantage bigger to secure victory quickly. But if you're weaker than your opponent and use it just to catch up to them, it's not going to be much help.

To put what I mean into numbers for demonstration... For simplicity's sake, let's just assume Grade 2's power boost is right at 1.5x, exactly in-between SS1 and SS2.

• You and your opponent are each both a 10. You use Grade 2 to push yourself up to a 15 and give yourself a large power advantage. You can now kick your opponent's ass pretty quickly and easily.
• You're a 12 and your opponent is a 10. You use Grade 2 to put yourself at 18 and make your already-decent power advantage massive. You can now kick your opponent's ass even more quickly and easily.

Those are situations where a power-up like Grade 2 is actually useful. This is more or less how it was for Vegeta against Stage-2 Cell; it's strongly implied that even with just Super Saiyan he was already on-par with or even stronger than Cell, but by going straight into Grade 2 he made that power advantage enormous and the fight was completely one-sided. Until Cell transformed, at least. So on the flipside...

• You're a 10 and your opponent is a 13. You're able to put up a good fight already, but you use Grade 2 to go up to a 15 and become the stronger one. But it's a relatively small advantage, and your opponent can still fight back well, just as you could before.
• You're a 10 and your opponent is a 17. Your opponent is utterly dominating you until you use Grade 2 to go up to 15. You now have enough power to adequately fight back, but your opponent still holds a moderate power advantage and you still have a very tough uphill battle ahead of you.

These are the situations where a power-up like Grade 2 are much less useful, and in fact may even work against you. In scenarios like these, you're going to be exerting yourself substantially, and in the process exacerbating the inherent strain n' drain drawbacks that Grade 2 has even in easy fights. You're no longer just fighting your opponent, at this point you're also fighting against your own body. In both these scenarios, even the one where you're stronger, the odds are stacked against you simply because your opponent has no such disadvantages and is going to outlast you.

So that's why Goku wouldn't have used the stronger Grade 2 form against Cell, if he even still could. Because we know he was a step or two behind Cell in power, thus he would end up in one of these two bad situations. It was much wiser of him to stick to the mastered, zero-waste version of regular Super Saiyan and at least be able to keep fighting without his own power dragging him down and making things worse.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

That is not from an official guide created by Shueisha or any group affiliated with Dragon Ball in an official capacity. As such, it has no more weight than if I personally created a guide book and somehow got it published. No official source puts Ssj Grade 3 even twice as strong as the regular Ssj form, much less ten times it.

I'm sorry but this is 100% official made by Shueisha and Bird studio all together. This guide could be very well more reliable than daizenshuu even:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So you're wrong here. This guide is originally made in japanese, but was published in spanish and french

That page you posted isn't a valid translation. Official translations have him specifically referring to not being able to sense their energy and that they're seemingly acting as if it's their normal state.

I know the translation, and I didn't note it much because it doesn't contradict my argument in the slightiest. Also this page has nothing to do with what I'm mainly focusing on. This actually furthers my point.

Again, faulty translation. Vegeta only mentions the strain associated with the normal Ssj form, and that getting used to it minimizes the stress normally associated with it. Nothing about the muscle weight at all.

I don't know where you're getting at, but this in no way contradicts me. This doesn't do anything to my usage of information.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This furthers a specific point I clarified. Transformations can be accessed to full potential if you can store all your ki at once, same like Mastered Super Saiyan Blue, if you master a form well, all the boost possibly given by the form can be accessed at once, which is way beyond whatever shown before. Goku adapted his Ssj as his base form, so he could MASTER the form, and get its power out.

Training in the Ssj form isn't independent of the base form though. Training the Ssj form increases the base form as well at 1/50th the rate (boosting the Ssj form by 50 million increases the base by 1 million).

That was debunked partly in the cell saga and in DBS. The reliability on Ssj while training reduces the boosting of power on base forms. Which was showcased by Whis. Their power ups isn't like that.

That's not the point of Whis's training and his comment about them not transforming. If they start as Super Saiyans during their training, then the work they'd need to do for effective results would be far greater than if they trained in their base forms

Exactly, which would cause them to highly improve every aspect better than as Ssj(s).

Using my aforementioned scenario above, it'd take them training to get a 50 million increase in their Ssj form to equate to training in their base forms for a one million increase. A lot more work for the same overall gain. Thus, them training in their base forms would net them the most efficient boost as far as strength increase vs. time.

I still don't see how is that supposed to be a "counter" to my argument as this doesn't in the slightiest bit contradicts me. Training is Ssj wouldn't let them increase in power at the same level as in base forms. But this is off topic, what you're talking about isn't what I was going on about.

All that would have to mean is Goku's base is just that much higher than Trunks/Vegeta's

The entire involvement was simply going on around MSsj, not base forms. That would be speculating that Ssj = MSsj which wasn't the case at all. It was heavily hinted that MSsj power boost as well as handling >> Regular Ssj. I still would want to see how that's contradicted.

Actually no. Vegeta only suggests that they'd be fairly equal base form wise, and given Cabba was far more winded in both the manga and anime following their scuffle in their base forms, that'd support Vegeta being the stronger

The statement is quite clear. While Vegeta's skill and possible more power than Cabba was shown, the gap in base forms wasn't anywhere near wide. It has no contradictions, and thus we can render them equal. It would be useless if we try to say it's wrong unless there's something suggesting that which there isn't. "suggests that they'd be fairly equal base form wise" - No. It was outright stated by Vegeta they're equal. He even showed signs of struggling. It still shows Vegeta's Gap with Cabba is nowere far but actually so near and close.

As such, Vegeta being stronger in his base form would just be exacerbated by them going Ssj, as the gap between them would just be that much wider.

That's purposedly saying that. Vegeta has powered up and improved his states completely better than Before. It was implied he mastered his Ssj state, and thus we can conclude that going MSsj >> Ssj. Going on around it that much wouldn't get you anywhere. It's like you don't want MSsj to be above Ssj. I'm not saying that you aren't, but it "sounds" like that. Everything is very clear right now with no need for further argument over something we witnessed but has no direct or indirect contradiction. Given the evidence we've got, no matter what we think of it, it would add up for Vegeta to be equal to cabba in base, yet above cabba in MSsj.

No, it wasn't. Not sure why you feel that it was.

I don't feel so, It's clear so. The amount of contradictions over the MSsj part about "Only Goku and Gohan mastered" is contradicted in Buu Saga and DBS, even using some parts of the cell saga to support later evidences

Alright, we can agree that you simply rushed my comment by scimming through it, possibly due to its length which I can understand, but you could've addressed some parts. Most of what you've shown has been partly clarified by me, but they seem to have been ignored

While it was possible you read my comment, but left some parts and only refuted some parts because:

There are flaws in your evidence though

(Which I know there aren't, and just to be sure, I'll re-check) It would be nice to see more of your point of view better. You seem to have rushed your counters quick, you could have taken your time. Most of what you gave me is out of what the main picture was about.

So for now, later, have all the time you need, and I'll do so too

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I don't know why people keep citing that "Grade 3 is 10x more powerful than [Super Saiyan? Grade 2? Which is it supposed to be?]" thing. For one, it makes no sense in light of more recent material, namely the SEG's revelation of SS2 and SS3's boosts, because it would make the form even stronger than Super Saiyan 3. But also, for all intents and purposes it just seems to be an embellishment that the Spanish publishers/writers of that guide added on their own rather than translated from reputable. It's in the same boat as Viz saying that Goku traveled across half of Namek to reach the Freeza fight, or that Goten and Trunks became the "strongest on Earth" at one point during the Majin Boo arc.



Anyhoo, as for why Goku would stick to Super Saiyan instead of using Grade 2, the way I figure is that even though it's not outright useless like Grade 3, the drawbacks of Grade 2 still give it really limited usefulness. It introduces even more stress and energy waste than regular un-mastered Super Saiyan already has, in exchange for what must be a significantly less than 2x power boost since it's not as strong as SS2.

That type of trade-off is only worthwhile if you know that relatively minimal power-up is going to be worth it. It's useful when you're already even with or a bit stronger than your opponent and want to make your power advantage bigger to secure victory quickly. But if you're weaker than your opponent and use it just to catch up to them, it's not going to be much help.

To put what I mean into numbers for demonstration... For simplicity's sake, let's just assume Grade 2's power boost is right at 1.5x, exactly in-between SS1 and SS2.

• You and your opponent are each both a 10. You use Grade 2 to push yourself up to a 15 and give yourself a large power advantage. You can now kick your opponent's ass pretty quickly and easily.
• You're a 12 and your opponent is a 10. You use Grade 2 to put yourself at 18 and make your already-decent power advantage massive. You can now kick your opponent's ass even more quickly and easily.

Those are situations where a power-up like Grade 2 is actually useful. This is more or less how it was for Vegeta against Stage-2 Cell; it's strongly implied that even with just Super Saiyan he was already on-par with or even stronger than Cell, but by going straight into Grade 2 he made that power advantage enormous and the fight was completely one-sided. Until Cell transformed, at least. So on the flipside...

• You're a 10 and your opponent is a 13. You're able to put up a good fight already, but you use Grade 2 to go up to a 15 and become the stronger one. But it's a relatively small advantage, and your opponent can still fight back well, just as you could before.
• You're a 10 and your opponent is a 17. Your opponent is utterly dominating you until you use Grade 2 to go up to 15. You now have enough power to adequately fight back, but your opponent still holds a moderate power advantage and you still have a very tough uphill battle ahead of you.

These are the situations where a power-up like Grade 2 are much less useful, and in fact may even work against you. In scenarios like these, you're going to be exerting yourself substantially, and in the process exacerbating the inherent strain n' drain drawbacks that Grade 2 has even in easy fights. You're no longer just fighting your opponent, at this point you're also fighting against your own body. In both these scenarios, even the one where you're stronger, the odds are stacked against you simply because your opponent has no such disadvantages and is going to outlast you.

So that's why Goku wouldn't have used the stronger Grade 2 form against Cell, if he even still could. Because we know he was a step or two behind Cell in power, thus he would end up in one of these two bad situations. It was much wiser of him to stick to the mastered, zero-waste version of regular Super Saiyan and at least be able to keep fighting without his own power dragging him down and making things worse.

I'm not gonna be talking too much about it now, but if I have to say something, you seem to misunderstand how the boost of Ssj2 works. It's simply 2x Ssj, but talk about it "WHAT grade of Ssj are you in?" Ssj2 is simply 2x before, 2x the super saiyan form you're in. If you were at Grade 4, 3, 2 or regular, Ssj2 would be 2x that. Other than that it was never implied to be "Only Regular Ssj", given the way it was given, it's general. Ssj depends on the person's usability to it.

I'll talk about the rest of your comment later when I have more free time or recall it even

[Kaboom]

I'm not gonna be talking too much about it now, but if I have to say something, you seem to misunderstand how the boost of Ssj2 works. It's simply 2x Ssj, but talk about it "WHAT grade of Ssj are you in?" Ssj2 is simply 2x before, 2x the super saiyan form you're in. If you were at Grade 4, 3, 2 or regular, Ssj2 would be 2x that. Other than that it was never implied to be "Only Regular Ssj", given the way it was given, it's general. Ssj depends on the person's usability to it.

I don't know where this over-complicated notion comes from, but it's not the case at all. The x2 boost for Super Saiyan 2 comes from the Super Exciting Guides books, and according to how Herms translated it back when it first released, it says specifically that that Super Saiyan 2 is twice the strength of regular Super Saiyan.

The second part deals with Goku’s power-ups: Super Saiyan, the Super God Water, and the potara. Again, mostly all stuff we’ve heard before, recounting the legend of the Super Saiyan and all that. It says Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than Super Saiyan 2, which does seem true. It gives the same old thing about Super Saiyan making Goku fifty times stronger than his normal form. It also says that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 has four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2, so that’s something new.

Each of the lines are in the form of a sort of caption to the pictures of Goku's various Super Saiyan forms. They read:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"

Oh, and no mention is made at all of Super Saiyan 2nd/3rd Grade or Full-Power Super Saiyan.

Like that last line says, the Grade forms aren't included in that list or even mentioned at all. Plus, the Grade forms are not considered "part of" Super Saiyan in any official source. The guidebooks consistently repeat what the manga says in considering them something that "surpasses" Super Saiyan or is "beyond the Super Saiyan wall." The same is never said of Full-Power Super Saiyan, even from the anime comic that ranked it as "Grade 4."

So to summarize, according to the manga and all official supplementary sources that I'm aware of...

Super Saiyan, when mastered, allows ease of use free of extra stress and drain, and "brings the power of Super Saiyan," not anything beyond it, to its limits.
The Grades forms are both something "beyond Super Saiyan" that improve upon it in various ways, but with drawbacks.
Super Saiyan 2 is also "beyond Super Saiyan," and unlike the Grades it improves upon Super Saiyan in all ways.


These guidebook bits have laid it out all very simply in a way that meshes with the manga perfectly fine. Why over-complicate it? I don't understand.

[Darkprince410]

So you're wrong here. This guide is originally made in japanese, but was published in spanish and french

The line of 3rd Grade being 10x that of Super Saiyan literally only appears in the Spanish translation of the guide, meaning that it's an embellishment of the original statement no different than the Funimation dub having Freeza only using 1% of his power against Goku during their fight together. It's not a valid source, thus irrelevant to use in any argument.

I know the translation, and I didn't note it much because it doesn't contradict my argument in the slightiest. Also this page has nothing to do with what I'm mainly focusing on. This actually furthers my point.

You utilized a faulty fanslation and referred to the dialogue in it to support your point, when the official dialogue doesn't make any reference to the point you drew from it. As such, I'm going to point out that flaw. You mentioned Vegeta's fanslation dialogue of him noticing "something more" as evidence that he could tell that FpSsj was above Ssj, but the legitimate dialogue only indicates him realizing they were like their base form.

That was debunked partly in the cell saga and in DBS. The reliability on Ssj while training reduces the boosting of power on base forms. Which was showcased by Whis. Their power ups isn't like that.

It wasn't though in either. Training in the Ssj form resulting in less efficient and rapid gains over training in the base form is something that's been clear as crystal from the get go. Training in the Ssj form is always going to net a proportional increase to the base form, but training in the base form is going to result in faster net gains due to it requiring less overall work.

The entire involvement was simply going on around MSsj, not base forms. That would be speculating that Ssj = MSsj which wasn't the case at all. It was heavily hinted that MSsj power boost as well as handling >> Regular Ssj. I still would want to see how that's contradicted.

There are no hints at all though that Full-power Super Saiyan is actually stronger than the regular Ssj form. Not within the manga or anime, or in any official data book for that matter. Everything indicated regarding Goku's decision, and that the balance is best in the regular Super Saiyan form, is that trying to increase the power output of the form at all results in the 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade issues, and that retaining the 50x boost and the muscle mass related to the base form, while killing the drain and strain associated with the form.

In turn, the strength boost can then readily be attributed to growth of the base form, and with there being less than a 2x difference between Ssj and Ssj2 (and Ssj 2nd and 3rd Grade being between those forms strength wise), it wouldn't require a considerable difference in base form to allow Goku and Gohan to be above Vegeta and Trunks.

That's purposedly saying that. Vegeta has powered up and improved his states completely better than Before. It was implied he mastered his Ssj state, and thus we can conclude that going MSsj >> Ssj. Going on around it that much wouldn't get you anywhere. It's like you don't want MSsj to be above Ssj. I'm not saying that you aren't, but it "sounds" like that. Everything is very clear right now with no need for further argument over something we witnessed but has no direct or indirect contradiction. Given the evidence we've got, no matter what we think of it, it would add up for Vegeta to be equal to cabba in base, yet above cabba in MSsj.

Except, as said, the evidence provided doesn't support them actually being equal. Given Cabba's more labored breathing and indications of struggling, it's a far safer assessment that they were actually not equal, thus the gap between their base forms would just be exacerbated by them transforming.

I don't feel so, It's clear so. The amount of contradictions over the MSsj part about "Only Goku and Gohan mastered" is contradicted in Buu Saga and DBS, even using some parts of the cell saga to support later evidences

Considering that the only difference between Ssj and Full-power Ssj is the removal of nearly all stress and strain related to the form, thus allowing them to maintain the form near indefinitely, and that only Goku and Gohan demonstrated this, then no, there is no contradiction there. Nothing officially says or even suggests FpSsj is more powerful than the regular Ssj form, just that it's more efficient.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I don't know where this over-complicated notion comes from, but it's not the case at all. The x2 boost for Super Saiyan 2 comes from the Super Exciting Guides books, and according to how Herms translated it back when it first released, it says specifically that that Super Saiyan 2 is twice the strength of regular Super Saiyan.

For some reason you think I don't know this. Super Exciting Guide clarified it. But it said this:

Each of the lines are in the form of a sort of caption to the pictures of Goku's various Super Saiyan forms. They read:

[spoiler]"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"[/spoiler]

Oh, and no mention is made at all of Super Saiyan 2nd/3rd Grade or Full-Power Super Saiyan.

1) This is how herms interpreted the statement. Don't take it as fact. "Super Saiyan" doesn't mean regular super saiyan, "Super Saiyan" refers to ALL FORMS. Don't try to use that as part of your thoughts. It's completely wrong. It's so general

2) The translation didn't say "regular", but that was purposedly added when originally it was never to serve an opinion that's all.

3) "Like that last line says, the Grade forms aren't included in that list or even mentioned at all" Until you show me that it meant REGULAR super saiyan, then fine, but nowhere is it found. "Super Saiyan" is described for all forms, and seeing that all 4 grades of super saiyan is the same type of transformation, there's no way they'd go and say each one with a different term. They are variations.

Plus, the Grade forms are not considered "part of" Super Saiyan in any official source. The guidebooks consistently repeat what the manga says in considering them something that "surpasses" Super Saiyan or is "beyond the Super Saiyan wall." The same is never said of Full-Power Super Saiyan, even from the anime comic that ranked it as "Grade 4."

You don't seem to know what this is exactly about.

1) The "Grades" of super saiyans are still variations of the very first Mutation, Regular Ssj. The grades simply makes you surpass the boost of a regular Ssj. MSsj is confirmed to boost someone's strength by ALL the potential and ki within a Ssj form. This is the same thing as in Mastered SsjB. If you manage to control Ssj as base form and master it, you can release all its potential, which was hinted through the show. No contradictions, and so my point stands still.

2) Herms interpretations over guide statements are all opinionated except the translations, him saying it's regular when the translation itself never made it that way completely throws an opinion out.

So to summarize, according to the manga and all official supplementary sources that I'm aware of...

Super Saiyan, when mastered, allows ease of use free of extra stress and drain, and "brings the power of Super Saiyan," not anything beyond it, to its limits.

And here you are supporting me. Never have I or anyone I encountered said it pushes beyond its limit. But the thing is, if MSsj is "equal" to regular Ssj, then "brings the power of Super Saiyan" is useless other than getting used to it. Ssj un-mastered restricts the potential of it to an upmost extend.

The Grades forms are both something "beyond Super Saiyan" that improve upon it in various ways, but with drawbacks.
Super Saiyan 2 is also "beyond Super Saiyan," and unlike the Grades it improves upon Super Saiyan in all ways.

I have yet to know why this is here, it has nothing to do with this.

These guidebook bits have laid it out all very simply in a way that meshes with the manga perfectly fine. Why over-complicate it? I don't understand.

No one is complicating it, this whole time you've supported me right now, you misunderstood them, and if anything, you used someone else's opinion rather than thinking it over multiple times.

Now that this has been said, my points stands still

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

So you're wrong here. This guide is originally made in japanese, but was published in spanish and french

The line of 3rd Grade being 10x that of Super Saiyan literally only appears in the Spanish translation of the guide, meaning that it's an embellishment of the original statement no different than the Funimation dub having Freeza only using 1% of his power against Goku during their fight together. It's not a valid source, thus irrelevant to use in any argument.

I know the translation, and I didn't note it much because it doesn't contradict my argument in the slightiest. Also this page has nothing to do with what I'm mainly focusing on. This actually furthers my point.

You utilized a faulty fanslation and referred to the dialogue in it to support your point, when the official dialogue doesn't make any reference to the point you drew from it. As such, I'm going to point out that flaw. You mentioned Vegeta's fanslation dialogue of him noticing "something more" as evidence that he could tell that FpSsj was above Ssj, but the legitimate dialogue only indicates him realizing they were like their base form.

That was debunked partly in the cell saga and in DBS. The reliability on Ssj while training reduces the boosting of power on base forms. Which was showcased by Whis. Their power ups isn't like that.

It wasn't though in either. Training in the Ssj form resulting in less efficient and rapid gains over training in the base form is something that's been clear as crystal from the get go. Training in the Ssj form is always going to net a proportional increase to the base form, but training in the base form is going to result in faster net gains due to it requiring less overall work.

The entire involvement was simply going on around MSsj, not base forms. That would be speculating that Ssj = MSsj which wasn't the case at all. It was heavily hinted that MSsj power boost as well as handling >> Regular Ssj. I still would want to see how that's contradicted.

There are no hints at all though that Full-power Super Saiyan is actually stronger than the regular Ssj form. Not within the manga or anime, or in any official data book for that matter. Everything indicated regarding Goku's decision, and that the balance is best in the regular Super Saiyan form, is that trying to increase the power output of the form at all results in the 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade issues, and that retaining the 50x boost and the muscle mass related to the base form, while killing the drain and strain associated with the form.

In turn, the strength boost can then readily be attributed to growth of the base form, and with there being less than a 2x difference between Ssj and Ssj2 (and Ssj 2nd and 3rd Grade being between those forms strength wise), it wouldn't require a considerable difference in base form to allow Goku and Gohan to be above Vegeta and Trunks.

That's purposedly saying that. Vegeta has powered up and improved his states completely better than Before. It was implied he mastered his Ssj state, and thus we can conclude that going MSsj >> Ssj. Going on around it that much wouldn't get you anywhere. It's like you don't want MSsj to be above Ssj. I'm not saying that you aren't, but it "sounds" like that. Everything is very clear right now with no need for further argument over something we witnessed but has no direct or indirect contradiction. Given the evidence we've got, no matter what we think of it, it would add up for Vegeta to be equal to cabba in base, yet above cabba in MSsj.

Except, as said, the evidence provided doesn't support them actually being equal. Given Cabba's more labored breathing and indications of struggling, it's a far safer assessment that they were actually not equal, thus the gap between their base forms would just be exacerbated by them transforming.

I don't feel so, It's clear so. The amount of contradictions over the MSsj part about "Only Goku and Gohan mastered" is contradicted in Buu Saga and DBS, even using some parts of the cell saga to support later evidences

Considering that the only difference between Ssj and Full-power Ssj is the removal of nearly all stress and strain related to the form, thus allowing them to maintain the form near indefinitely, and that only Goku and Gohan demonstrated this, then no, there is no contradiction there. Nothing officially says or even suggests FpSsj is more powerful than the regular Ssj form, just that it's more efficient.

I'll reply to this later so I can be clear.

[Dragonballgod19]

I'm pretty sure vegeta already master super saiyan years ago.

[Kaboom]

I gotta say, DB▪Magnum-Expert, it's really starting to look like you're just set on this MO of pushing out these pointlessly over-complicated theories about things, no matter how many times myself or others try to explain things to you or point out how contradictory or unfounded they are. Now we've even gotten to the point where Herms' precise, exactly-for-these-purposes translations aren't exact or trustworthy enough, because... you say they aren't, I guess?

Honestly there's not going to be much point in having discussions with you on these topics if you're not even going to be operating on the same near-universal common ground as just about anyone else.

[VegettoEX]

I'll reply to this later so I can be clear.

This isn't a chat room. There's no need to post until you're actually ready to post.

(Do the kids even know what chat rooms are, any more? Or do I need a new reference?)

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I gotta say, DB▪Magnum-Expert, it's really starting to look like you're just set on this MO of pushing out these pointlessly over-complicated theories about things

What over-complifcated theories have I made? I NEVER make theories. I hate making theories. You simply said that because I disagree with you? Try to refute me if you actually want to try. Don'tsay I make theories because Non of what I'm making are theories. Calling them theories just because we disagree with you leaves an impression on you to others that can be badly interpreted. Don't expect your opinion to be common.

no matter how many times myself or others try to explain things to you or point out how contradictory or unfounded they are

"Others"? That's more like you telling me I'm the "wrong" guy. I've met so many people and most of them agreed with me. The thing is, you try to counter me, but I'm not "it's really starting to look like you're just set on this MO" I'm not set, you guys are the ones who do not even try to refute anything, yet you call it "no matter how many times myself or others try to explain things to you or point out how contradictory or unfounded they are" That's your opinion. You're acting like you are an official source

Now we've even gotten to the point where Herms' precise, exactly-for-these-purposes translations aren't exact or trustworthy enough, because... you say they aren't, I guess?

Don't put words on me. I would like to see you showing me where did I say his translation is wrong? That's more of an accusation you've given me, either because you misunderstood me or you purposedly did because you couldn't refute me. Refute me well, not start talking as if you are facts. You don't seem to undersand what I'm talking about. I've quite clearly mentioned my points, supported, and herms translation DOESN'T contradict me. Yet for some reason you accuse me over this because I don't share your opinions.

Honestly there's not going to be much point in having discussions with you on these topics if you're not even going to be operating on the same near-universal common ground as just about anyone else.

You're acting so full of yourself and act as if I have no knowledge of anything over what I'm talking about, is this really what you do just because we disagree with you? I'm operating quite well, I mention multiple evidence, I only work on evidence, NOT A SINGLE theory was given. You guys fail to refute me, then you come up with something like that to stop me as if from arguing

The line of 3rd Grade being 10x that of Super Saiyan literally only appears in the Spanish translation of the guide

El Manga Legendario was only translated to Spanish and French, and your logic is simply "because it's translated to spanish" It doesn't work like that. The statement in the guide was so clear, you just want to assume it's wrong for some reason.

no different than the Funimation dub having Freeza only using 1% of his power against Goku during their fight together

That's just how you want to see it. There is nothing suggesting it's wrong other than your interpretation to it, It's mentioned in an official guide, that's quite enough.

It's not a valid source, thus irrelevant to use in any argument.

You still haven't refuted the point about it being official or anything. The statement is official, if you say it isn't, then that's simply your interpretation.

You utilized a faulty fanslation and referred to the dialogue in it to support your point, when the official dialogue doesn't make any reference to the point you drew from it. As such, I'm going to point out that flaw. You mentioned Vegeta's fanslation dialogue of him noticing "something more" as evidence that he could tell that FpSsj was above Ssj, but the legitimate dialogue only indicates him realizing they were like their base form.

The "something more" part can be interpreted in any form. So even if you remove it, it would be fine, it furhtered my point over the explanation Vegeta gave.

Training in the Ssj form resulting in less efficient and rapid gains over training in the base form is something that's been clear as crystal from the get go

Where have I said that's wrong, this is the same thing as what this says "The reliability on Ssj while training reduces the boosting of power on base forms". You're contradicting yourself

As for:

It wasn't though in either

Yes it was, it was implied and even in the buu saga.

Training in the Ssj form is always going to net a proportional increase to the base form, but training in the base form is going to result in faster net gains due to it requiring less overall work.

In the end, I never disagreed and this doesn't contradict me. For some reason you thought I disagree when my explanation doesn't say this is wrong.

There are no hints at all though that Full-power Super Saiyan is actually stronger than the regular Ssj form

Yes there IS Evidence. You seem to not want to accept it at all, it's quite shown. You've also ignored so many of my points in my previous comment, But I'll laater clarify it way better.

Not within the manga or anime, or in any official data book for that matter

I don't know how you take this as "fact" because you simply disagree, but in the manga and anime, there is quite multiple evidence that leads towards my conclusion.

Everything indicated regarding Goku's decision, and that the balance is best in the regular Super Saiyan form, is that trying to increase the power output of the form at all results in the 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade issues

You make sound as if Grade 4 results into the same training results as in Grade 1 when it wasn't that case. Grade 4's superiority in usage and output was shown.

retaining the 50x boost

I don't know why you use this as part of your argument, that's your opinion being treated as fact by you. Which cannot be use, your explanation itself in NO WAY counters me, but more to it, it doesn't say anything regarding Ssj being equal to MSsj, yet evidences hint down to MSsj.

the muscle mass related to the base form, while killing the drain and strain associated with the form.

I never disagreed. But as for Grade 2, it was never mentioned anything about muscle mass:

~Second Grade
First Appearance: chapter 377
People: Son Goku, Trunks, Vegeta
Special features: A power-up where every nerve is concentrated, sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiya-jin.

By that Logic SsjGr2 > MSsj even though it was hinted down that MSsj > all other grades. More to that, goku wanted to even go beyond with perfect control over his form and gain all the Super Saiyan potential.

Given Cabba's more labored breathing and indications of struggling

Yes Cabba looked like he struggled more, but Vegeta was shown to have struggled and was badly hurt by Cabba like equals. Vegeta's skills >> Cabba's. The statement is so obvious with no contradictions as Vegeta struggled too

[spoiler][/spoiler]

it's a far safer assessment that they were actually not equal, thus the gap between their base forms would just be exacerbated by them transforming.

Based on what we got, It's far safer to go by Base forms being equal but Vegeta as MSsj clears the gap between him and regular Ssj cabba. Denying that would simply mean you don't want MSsj forms to be superior

Considering that the only difference between Ssj and Full-power Ssj is the removal of nearly all stress and strain related to the form

Don't call it "Only" difference. It has evidence enough to suggest my conclusion

thus allowing them to maintain the form near indefinitely, and that only Goku and Gohan demonstrated this, then no, there is no contradiction there

1) I never disagreed that MSsj does that.

2) There IS EVIDENCE that not only Goku and Gohan know MSsj, but Vegeta, Goten and Trunks showed that they mastered the form. But this isn't the argument here anyways.

Alright, you've managed to argue with me, but non of your argument even contradicted me. You managed to ignore so many things in my comment and my previous comment that started this. You later started to deny things, which means you haven't contradicted me or refuted me in the slightiest.

This isn't a chat room. There's no need to post until you're actually ready to post.

I'm sure that you have knowledge that I Know that. I'm not even gonna argue over "(Do the kids even know what chat rooms are, any more? Or do I need a new reference?)"

In regards to the trials you guys tried on me, My argument stands solid uncontradicted, and unrefuted. As for you Kaboom, Don't go off topic, accusing me over some claims, and treating your opinion and your friends as facts just because they follow your opinion

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

If you guys feel like no one will concede and this won't get anywhere, simply agree to disagree, which is what's supposed to happen. I'm not forcing anyone to argue. Neither am I, but there's no sense in wasting time if no one is gladly listening, and to be respectful too, I'm also talking to myself. We don't convince, we refute. But if no one accepts it, there's no need to continue right? It's better to leave it like that.