It seems you're persistent, but do you want to end it? No one is accepting anything, Neither me, nor you. It's useless to continue. I've ended this here, but there's really no reason to continue. It's your call to want to end it.
Simply say: Agree to disagree.
If that was said, I'll be listening well and end it. It's getting nowhere. This is my refute for now, you can choose to read it and then leave, agreeing to disgree, and I'd do the same, Like I said:
If you guys feel like no one will concede and this won't get anywhere, simply agree to disagree, which is what's supposed to happen. I'm not forcing anyone to argue. Neither am I, but there's no sense in wasting time if no one is gladly listening, and to be respectful too, I'm also talking to myself. We don't convince, we refute. But if no one accepts it, there's no need to continue right? It's better to leave it like that.
Or simply another thing. I suggest we end it. It gets to nowhere. Here's my last refute:
No, I'm not saying that I'm dismissing the guide because it was translated to Spanish. I'm dismissing it because that line only appears in the Spanish version of the guide. It's been confirmed that the original Japanese version does not contain the 10x stronger text, thus it is something that the Spanish translators added as an embellishment, and thus it's invalid
1) This doesn't mean it's invalid. While I don't understand french so to check if it was there, I'll check about it, but I haven't seen how this makes it invalid. Translation isn't an issue to use to deduce whether something is invalid or not, no matter what.
2) "It's been confirmed that the original Japanese version does not contain the 10x stronger text" Really? Because the context has nothing in relation to japanese translation. This guide was only published in Spanish and French translations
The original Japanese version makes no mention of how much stronger it was to Super Saiyan, just that it was stronger. That's why I compared it to the Funi dub line of Freeza using 1% power, as in both cases it only appears in that version, and doesn't appear in the original.
Which I showcased it above how it's a misunderstanding.
When all the databooks make note of 2nd and 3rd Grade being stronger than Super Saiyan, but Full-power Super Saiyan is only referred and described as being more efficient, that alone says a lot about what is officially believed the form is
I would have yet to see a guidebook saying that MSsj doesn't increase someone's strength. Mastering a form makes you capable of accessing the full potential boost of a mutation. This was Noted in the manga and implied heavily too.
If it was supposed to be even stronger than 3rd Grade, why is that not mentioned at all in the databooks?
I don't even know how you even ask this. Not every single detail is supposed to be shown in the databooks. Otherwise we might as well dismiss most information in the series because multiple of them weren't covered in databooks. That is no way is a fine logic. Also, the databooks never contradicted the point.
In fact, the Daizenshuu even puts doubt into it being seen as a separate state altogether, as the Special Attack Dictionary of the Daizenshuu doesn't even list it as a separate form from the regular Super Saiyan in the same way it lists 2nd and 3rd Grade
Super Saiya-jin
First Appearance: chapter 317
Category: ability
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli
Special features: The ultimate Saiya-jin warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiya-jin. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiya-jin. In reality, any Saiya-jin that posses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiya-jin. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiya-jin race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.
Anime: In the anime, the Super Saiya-jin's distinctive golden aura was represented with special effects known as brush processing and permeation light (Daiezenshuu 5, p.104). The legendary Super Saiya-jin Broli debuted in “Burn Up!! A Close – Intense – Super-Fierce Battle” and appeared in 3 movies. Perhaps this instinct-driven form is the true Super Saiya-jin, which the legend says will “Love destruction and slaughter” (Daizenshuu 6, p.106).
~Second Grade
First Appearance: chapter 377
People: Son Goku, Trunks, Vegeta
Special features: A power-up where every nerve is concentrated, sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiya-jin.
~Third Grade
First Appearance: chapter 386
People: Son Goku, Trunks
Special features: This form is capable of drawing out immense power, inflating muscles to the limit. However, this kills speed and movement becomes sluggish; on top of that, the burden on the body is also great.
~2
First Appearance: chapter 408
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks
Special features: This form has power that surpasses Super Saiya-jin in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form from his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it from harsh training.
-3
First Appearance: chapter 474
People: Son Goku, Gotenks
Special features: The strongest form of Super Saiya-jin, which draws the hidden power of a Saiya-jin out to its limits. However, due to the large energy consumption of this form, outside of the afterlife one can only stay transformed for a limited amount of time
This is all it says. Sorry, but if it wasn't mentioned, is it supposed to be believed that MSsj is doubtful? Actually, this would tend to make someone it doesn't exist yet it was PROVEN it does. The entries of daizenshuu doesn't include every single thing in dragon ball. We take over what we're given, not invent something over a thing because it isn't mentioned in a media yet mentioned in another. Full Power Super Saiyan IS Super saiyan, no one is denying that, but as "Full power" super saiyan, it is completely mastered as base form and draws the full power of the super saiyan transformation which was clarified in the show.
"In fact, the Daizenshuu even puts doubt into it being seen as a separate state altogether"
1) It isn't "fact". I have yet to see a doubt. Simply because it isn't listed doesn't in no shape or form mean it was doubted
2) Speculating it's doubt just because it isn't mentioned is jst so wrong. Things like this don't work like that, it would be laughable if everything was mentioned from the show, or would you still call it "doubt"?
Additionally, there is nothing that appears in the manga or anime in any form as to why FpSsj is stronger than the likes of 2nd Grade/3rd Grade that can't be explained simply by a higher base form
Yet again it seems you take it as "facts" yet there are many indications around it. I've showcased some in my first comment, yet you ignored them.
Goku and Gohan being above Vegeta and Trunks? Higher base form explains it perfectly. Vegeta being above Cabba? Higher base form explains it.
You're struggling too hard. You are trying to deny something obviously shown. Base forms was never an issue. Goku and Gohan trained with the very most basic training ever, as Goku said. Vegeta however for 2 years trained as hard as he can and pushed himself so far in his base form and his regular and 2nd grade super saiyan, yet it didn't do anything. Now basic training > harsh determined training? Which is obviously shown in super. Super Saiyan, regular to 3rd grade, wastes too much energy:
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MSsj would make him control all the overflowing leaked energy, gathering all his ki, accessing the full potential of the Super Saiyan boost, which makes him grow stronger in MSsj.
You're now trying to disprove a factual uncontradicted statement by Vegeta himself who showed so many signs of struggling. If anything, the contradiction would be the transformations as in Super Saiyan forms, but Vegeta went Ssj, which quickly makes sense if it was thought on to be MSsj, as Vegeta mastered the form. In accordance to this new episode, it's implied Goku and Vegeta have mastered previous forms (Possibly excpet Ssj3 for Goku, other than that it wasn't contradicted in any way possible, but supported)
You're not looking at the progression of events. He wanted to go beyond Super Saiyan prior to actually trying to. It took him actually attempting to go beyond Super Saiyan (reaching 2nd and 3rd Grade) for him to realize that doing that was too inefficient, and decided that sacrificing speed and a massive ki drain for the extra power wasn't worth it. Then he opted for FpSsj, going with a weaker form that was better balanced and then work on the stress and strain of the form by staying in it constantly
2nd grade doesn't sacrifice speed:
[spoiler]~Second Grade
First Appearance: chapter 377
People: Son Goku, Trunks, Vegeta
Special features: A power-up where every nerve is concentrated, sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiya-jin.[/spoiler]
Another information you overlooked. Goku wanted something way suprerior to even 2nd grade which doesn't sacrifice speed. Goku trained using basic training:
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Normally, it would be a waste of time, which is SHOWN by Goku. Yet he is saying that after he masters Ssj, basic training is all he needs. The level of training is determined by how you train. Goku felt that if he masters Ssj, he would get the power he needs, implied here. That's why he suggests basic training.
That's why you don't see him talking about the potential of Super Saiyan after he entered, because once he did and realized that gaining that power meant inefficient forms, he went to a weaker state instead.
He realized that after he achieved SsjGr2 and 3, that there is something even more beyond than that. Grade 2 is an efficient form, so he went to a "weaker" form? I clarified that above
This is even confirmed in the most recent episode of Super, where Caulifla tried going at Goku using 3rd Grade. Rather than directing her to work to attain FpSsj for more power while maintaining the speed of Ssj (as your interpretation of what FpSsj does), he directed her to go to Ssj2 instead
Alright this will be fun to clarify. First, 3rd grade is simply a further power up to the form you are PREVIOUSLY using. This form can be attained even by non saiyans, it isn't a standard transformation. It doesn't go well with any pattern. The same way Caulifla, she jumped to it. She didn't consider Grade 2.
Perfect Cell achieved this form:
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He even implied that ANYONE Can achieve that form, by sacrificing their speed with their power. Caulifla has evidence to say that she MASTERED her Super Saiyan form (yes), so when she goes that way, she SCARIFICES THE SPEED OF HER MSSJ form.
Goku called her "interesting" because she went into USsj, even though it's a bad transformation, which means his complementing her GENERALLY:
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Here it is:
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[spoiler]
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[spoiler]
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About this: "Rather than directing her to work to attain FpSsj for more power while maintaining the speed of Ssj (as your interpretation of what FpSsj does), he directed her to go to Ssj2 instead". This SUPPORTS me. It would mean that Caulifla has mastered Ssj. She was called a prodigy, and has potential, so saying "this doesn't make sense" is out of the picture.
The evidence is also here. In order to go into saiyan transformations, you do them by turns, that's why goku told her you CAN'T go SsjB, she needs to pass through levels:
[spoiler]
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If you wanna say he's wrong just because, then there would be no reason to tell her about Ssj2. Goku even thought she can go to Ssj3 during their battle, proving that her talent and mastery are there:
[spoiler]
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[spoiler]
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That's why he tells her to aim for Ssj2:
[spoiler]
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[spoiler]
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Otherwise it would be contradictory.
Why would goku tell her to transform in turns otherwise she won't get to blue? If you deny that it would be so contradictory. She even tells she now handles Ssj completely well:
[spoiler]
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[spoiler]
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[spoiler]
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He even says "not bad", implying her ability:
[spoiler]
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And just like I showed, she needs to go in turns, as when goku said she should go to Ssj3. He even says she might while fighting, meaning he sees she's actually a prodigy on her own.
Goku says to get to Ssj3, she should focus on mastering Ssj2, Code:
MASTER, IMPLYING that Goku sees Caulifla as she mastered Ssj. That's why he strives her to go further beyond. He was shocked that she went Ssj2 unintentionally, meaning he was surprised and if anything, he would have learned her to aim for Ssj2 until he knew.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
And since goku mastered his Ssj2 yet Caulifla didn't, he takes on her casually. Yet her impression on a regular Ssj of Goku's wasn't anything impressive much, she just failed because of Grade 3's misconception, and Goku started coaching her for further forms.
This episode helps me a lot.
If FpSsj was actually between the two, as your theory/belief contends
I'm fine with belief, but non of this is "theory".
why wouldn't he direct her to work toward that instead? His every statement during that back and forth suggests that 3rd Grade is the closest in power to Ssj2, but that it's too inefficient for fighting.
She has done it already, I clarified that part above anyways
There is not evidence that Vegeta, Goten, or Trunks have mastered the form, as the only factual difference between the forms that is actually proven and verifiable is the ability to stay within it as if it were their base forms, and in that situation it is only Goku and Gohan that have demonstrated this.
A "demonstration" isn't what's always needed. There are implifications. By that logic, nothing is facts except feats, which would burn many types of logic. It was hinted down through the show that Vegeta, Goten and Trunks mastered the form enough to be called "Mastered". It was implied many times.
You've ignored some stuff, but fine.
