Kid Buu fight... Why so complicated?

[Lionel]

I never quite understood why Gohan and Gotenks' "negligence" is held so adamantly as a weapon of disrepute against their potentiality as heroes. It's not as though either one anticipated Buu being capable of absorbing others. Such an ability took them completely by surprise. I can almost guarantee you that Goku and Vegeta would have been susceptible to the same error in judgement if put in those circumstances. In fact, you could even find some other personality mistakes that obstructed a person from successfully defeating the antagonist at different points in the manga such as Tenshinhan naively failing to inspect the device paramount to his strategy against Daimao succeeding before flying out to the capital or Piccolo standing around trading dialogue with his cohorts instead of killing Imperfect Cell immediately like he said he would in the ruins of Ginger Town.

In comparison to some of those aforementioned errors, Gohan's doesn't appear all too severe.

[MR.Mark]

I still think a Goku and Vegeta Genkidama double team with Gohan beating Buu into submission would be the best way to go to improve that fight.

[ABED]

If we're going to do what ifs, I wish Gohan had never gotten that ridiculous and cheap power up. It would've done a lot to help this issue.

[8000 Saiyan]

I don't think Gohan beating Kid Buu would have been as satisfactory as Goku killing him with the Spirit Bomb was. It would have been extremely one-sided, which is understandable since Gohan is far more powerful than Kid Buu, who's weaker than Super Buu.

[MR.Mark]

Agreed which is why I'd make pure Buu stronger so Goku, Gohan and Vegeta all got equal hand in defeating him instead of the genki ass pull dama.

[ABED]

I don't think Gohan beating Kid Buu would have been as satisfactory as Goku killing him with the Spirit Bomb was. It would have been extremely one-sided, which is understandable since Gohan is far more powerful than Kid Buu, who's weaker than Super Buu.

That point is debatable. What did we see that shows Kid Buu was weaker? This is at the heart of the issue. I don't think it's clear which form is stronger than which.

The Genki Dama wasn't a deus ex machina, MR.Mark.

[MR.Mark]

I think the real question is, what WASIN'T a deus ex mochachino in the Buu arc?

We got: Fusion, SSJ3, Z SWORD, magic spells, Ultimate, Buu, Buu, Buu

[ABED]

I think the real question is, what WASIN'T a deus ex mochachino in the Buu arc?

We got: Fusion, SSJ3, Z SWORD, magic spells, Ultimate, Buu, Buu, Buu

other than the magic spell that powers up Gohan, which are deus ex machinas?
I'm not sure fusion counts as in the end, they don't save the day. Nor do I think the Z Sword counts as one either.
Super Saiyan 3 is a bit of one, but even then, little comes of it.

[MR.Mark]

Either way, it's making me thirsty for some reason.

There is so much "and then THIS happens" story telling in the Buu arc, as entertaining as some of it is, Imperfect Cell introduction writing it is not.

[ABED]

Either way, it's making me thirsty for some reason.

There is so much "and then THIS happens" story telling in the Buu arc, as entertaining as some of it is, Imperfect Cell introduction writing it is not.

yeah, writing by the seat of his pants bit him in the ass on this arc. He was having fun, but the story lacks cohesion. He's throwing stuff against the wall the whole time.

[MR.Mark]

Yeah, at the expense of character consistency and logic, but it's entertaining, I'll give it that.

[ABED]

Yeah, at the expense of character consistency and logic, but it's entertaining, I'll give it that.

They are consistent in their characterization. They have constantly put the world at risk for the sake of a good fight and contrary to your odd belief that ki blasts don't constitute fighting, the Genki Dama counts as part of the fight. And here we go again, since we know their aim isn't JUST to destroy Buu and save the day, it's to have a good fight, them not bringing in Gohan makes sense. You may not agree with their goals, but the ends to achieving that goal are logical.

[8000 Saiyan]

If I recall correctly, Goku said numerous times in the manga that he was no match for Super Buu.

[MR.Mark]

If I recall correctly, Goku said numerous times in the manga that he was no match for Super Buu.

Yeah, and the only reason Goku and Vegeta thought they could handle Kid Buu was because he was powered down. They weren't morons looking for a good fight until that happened, Goku was scared to fight Super Buu unfused.

But of course, since consistency and logic flys out the window at times in the Buu arc, a lot, they decide suddenly to gamble again.

BUT THEN, Goku comes to his senses and suggestions Gohan when they get there asses kicked...

BUT THEN Vegeta pointlessly gambles again, for drama reasons.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Also there is the theory that ssj3 Goku is actually stronger than them.

Not really. Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku since that's stated in the manga.

I agree they are stronger, but not way stronger, and no, it is never actually confirmed they are stronger, it is just implied since Goku said he couldn't beat Super Buu.

SSJ Gotenks pre rosat at the very least is weaker than Fat Boo, but not far behind him, but not as strong as SSJ3 Goku. (I say this because Goku said they'd be ready in two days and them achieving SSJ for the first time was before the two days. And then Super Boo happened before then). Piccolo even said in the anime that they are still not ready after going SSJ and need to finish the two days of training to be ready for Fatso.
But Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is no doubt above both Goku and Fat Boo.

SSJ2 Vegeta is nowhere near SSJ Gotenks pre or post ROSAT

[dragon boss z]

Not really. Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku since that's stated in the manga.

I agree they are stronger, but not way stronger, and no, it is never actually confirmed they are stronger, it is just implied since Goku said he couldn't beat Super Buu.

SSJ Gotenks pre rosat at the very least is weaker than Fat Boo, but not far behind him, but not as strong as SSJ3 Goku. (I say this because Goku said they'd be ready in two days and them achieving SSJ for the first time was before the two days. And then Super Boo happened before then). Piccolo even said in the anime that they are still not ready after going SSJ and need to finish the two days of training to be ready for Fatso.
But Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is no doubt above both Goku and Fat Boo.

SSJ2 Vegeta is nowhere near SSJ Gotenks pre or post ROSAT

I don think post Rosat ssj Gotenks is above ssj3 Goku. Fat Buu and ssj3 Goku aren't the same level. Fat Buu was just above high ssj2 tier but his regen made him impossible for anyone ssj2 level to beat him.

[LowRyder2005]

Not really. Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku since that's stated in the manga.

I agree they are stronger, but not way stronger, and no, it is never actually confirmed they are stronger, it is just implied since Goku said he couldn't beat Super Buu.

SSJ Gotenks pre rosat at the very least is weaker than Fat Boo, but not far behind him, but not as strong as SSJ3 Goku. (I say this because Goku said they'd be ready in two days and them achieving SSJ for the first time was before the two days. And then Super Boo happened before then). Piccolo even said in the anime that they are still not ready after going SSJ and need to finish the two days of training to be ready for Fatso.
But Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is no doubt above both Goku and Fat Boo.

SSJ2 Vegeta is nowhere near SSJ Gotenks pre or post ROSAT

If anything, I believe it's quite the contrary: the manga makes a really strong case through characters' reactions about Super Saiyan Gotenks possessing incredible power, and about the newborn Fusion being enough to beat Fat Buu as long as in Super Saiyan mode. Goku said to Buu that the fighters would be ready in two days, but it's much safer to conclude that two days is just his estimation of the time they'll need their time to master the Fusion technique and nothing else. Goku implies they were otherwise fine as they were ("if they fuse there's no doubt they will win"), not that they needed to increase their power through other types of training or whatnot. The same Goku states multiple times that Fusion will be enough; Piccolo immediately references base Gotenks' power being below Buu's, but with Super Saiyan Gotenks he only talks about stupendous power and questions his speed.

When you reflect about it, it doesn't make much sense at all for Piccolo to nitpick about speed if Gotenks' raw power wasn't already par for the course: it's like being shown a car you absolutely won't buy and, when the seller asks "what do you think about it?", you answer "uhm, what about the interior?" instead of a plain "don't like it/ not gonna buy this". In short, unless we were to argue Piccolo was behaving irrationally, this should constitute conclusive evidence.

The only entirely debatable thing, in my view, is whether Super Saiyan Gotenks is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku at any point: through feats and statements the minimum you could conclude is just that they are both above the other Super Saiyan 2s.
I'm leaving Gotenks' biography from the Daizenshuu aside, for now, as I'm still waiting for someone to translate the page to hopefully clarify if it's really accurate to report that the guidebooks portray portray pre-ROSAT Gotenks as below Vegeta (there are at least two conflicting translations floating around).

[STH]

Also there is the theory that ssj3 Goku is actually stronger than them.

Not really. Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku since that's stated in the manga.

"that's stated in the manga"
Which chapter?

[STH]

I think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Gotenks and Gohan.

[dragonball0900]

Also there is the theory that ssj3 Goku is actually stronger than them.

Not really. Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku since that's stated in the manga.

"that's stated in the manga"
Which chapter?

Goku was afraid of fighting Super Buu, even with Vegeta's help, and he wanted to fuse with Vegeta. With Kid Buu, however, he was willing to fight with him, only for them to be equal. That means that Super Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu. Super Buu is also equal or inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks, who is weaker than Gohan.

Goku also put his trust on the fusion. It would be silly for Gotenks to be weaker than Goku especially since it's a fusion. We also have the SSJ multipliers. Gotenks is above SSJ2 Vegeta after the ROSAT training (stated in the guides), then we have SSJ2 and SSJ3 on top of it, obviously far outclassing SSJ3 Goku.

I think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Gotenks and Gohan.

Tell me where's proof that Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks?