Kid Buu fight... Why so complicated?

[TheZFighter]

I have to say I've always loved it.

[dragon boss z]

Not really. Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku since that's stated in the manga.

"that's stated in the manga"
Which chapter?

Goku was afraid of fighting Super Buu, even with Vegeta's help, and he wanted to fuse with Vegeta. With Kid Buu, however, he was willing to fight with him, only for them to be equal. That means that Super Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu. Super Buu is also equal or inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks, who is weaker than Gohan.

Goku also put his trust on the fusion. It would be silly for Gotenks to be weaker than Goku especially since it's a fusion. We also have the SSJ multipliers. Gotenks is above SSJ2 Vegeta after the ROSAT training (stated in the guides), then we have SSJ2 and SSJ3 on top of it, obviously far outclassing SSJ3 Goku.

Goku only wanted to fight kid Buu 1v1 because he was also u fused so he thought it would. Be fare. However they weren't strong enough to stop kid Buu's planet busting attack and after fighting kid Buu Goku admitted they should of fused to fight him. So kid Buu could very well be equal to base Super Buu. But Gohan would still be above both.

[dragonball0900]

"that's stated in the manga"
Which chapter?

Goku was afraid of fighting Super Buu, even with Vegeta's help, and he wanted to fuse with Vegeta. With Kid Buu, however, he was willing to fight with him, only for them to be equal. That means that Super Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu. Super Buu is also equal or inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks, who is weaker than Gohan.

Goku also put his trust on the fusion. It would be silly for Gotenks to be weaker than Goku especially since it's a fusion. We also have the SSJ multipliers. Gotenks is above SSJ2 Vegeta after the ROSAT training (stated in the guides), then we have SSJ2 and SSJ3 on top of it, obviously far outclassing SSJ3 Goku.

Goku only wanted to fight kid Buu 1v1 because he was also u fused so he thought it would. Be fare. However they weren't strong enough to stop kid Buu's planet busting attack and after fighting kid Buu Goku admitted they should of fused to fight him. So kid Buu could very well be equal to base Super Buu. But Gohan would still be above both.

Let's put it this way.
It's stated by the Daizenshuu that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after training in the ROSAT. That's referring to Gotenks' SSJ state.

If Majin Vegeta, who is equal to SSJ2 Goku, is a 10, and let's say that Gotenks is just an 11. Then we use the multipliers. 4 times 10 for SSJ3 Goku would be 40. Then 2 times 11 is 22, and 4 times 22 is 88. That would make SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu like nearly twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku.

About the planet busting attack, they didn't have that much time since Kid Buu was already finishing the attack, and Goku was concentrating more on helping the others. It also takes a lot of energy to do the SSJ3 transformation right in an instant when the attack was nearly doing effect.

[dragon boss z]

Let's put it this way.
It's stated by the Daizenshuu that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta after training in the ROSAT. That's referring to Gotenks' SSJ state.

If Majin Vegeta, who is equal to SSJ2 Goku, is a 10, and let's say that Gotenks is just an 11. Then we use the multipliers. 4 times 10 for SSJ3 Goku would be 40. Then 2 times 11 is 22, and 4 times 22 is 88. That would make SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu like nearly twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku.

ssj3 Gotenks and Super Buu being 2x could fit. Though I'm not sure multipliers work the same way for fusions. Base Gotenks to ssj Gotenks doesn't seem like a x50 multiplier. If it was base Gotenks would be weaker than Frieza (which is technically possible, but most people have base Gotenks way above that). And base Vegito was putting up a good fight against Buuhan in base form, and he damaged fused Zamasu in base too. So to me it seems like multipliers for fussed characters are a smaller. Though I could still get behind Super Buu and ssj3 Gotenks being about 2x Goku.

About the planet busting attack, they didn't have that much time since Kid Buu was already finishing the attack, and Goku was concentrating more on helping the others. It also takes a lot of energy to do the SSJ3 transformation right in an instant when the attack was nearly doing effect.

He just flat out said it was too big to deflect.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[dragonball0900]

ssj3 Gotenks and Super Buu being 2x could fit. Though I'm not sure multipliers work the same way for fusions. Base Gotenks to ssj Gotenks doesn't seem like a x50 multiplier. If it was base Gotenks would be weaker than Frieza (which is technically possible, but most people have base Gotenks way above that). And base Vegito was putting up a good fight against Buuhan in base form, and he damaged fused Zamasu in base too. So to me it seems like multipliers for fussed characters are a smaller. Though I could still get behind Super Buu and ssj3 Gotenks being about 2x Goku.

I actually have Base Gotenks stronger than Frieza even if he's just 2x times stronger than Goku. We also don't have to judge on what other people say.

Vegito putting a good fight against Buuhan was filler, and even if it is true that he can do that then it wouldn't matter still since we don't know how strong SSJ Vegito is. He can possibly be 50 times stronger than Buuhan.

Don't trust that much in Super, there are many inconsistencies there when it comes to weaker characters damaging stronger characters, and even plenty more inconsistencies in its whole power scalling.

[dragon boss z]

I actually have Base Gotenks stronger than Frieza even if he's just 2x times stronger than Goku. We also don't have to judge on what other people say.

I mean even if you have him above Frieza, he still shouldn't be stronger than Piccolo or ssj Goku, but he is treated like he might be.

[dragonball0900]

I actually have Base Gotenks stronger than Frieza even if he's just 2x times stronger than Goku. We also don't have to judge on what other people say.

I mean even if you have him above Frieza, he still shouldn't be stronger than Piccolo or ssj Goku, but he is treated like he might be.

Well I'm also able to put him above SSJ Goku (Frieza arc), and rivals Piccolo (Android arc) as well as Goku (from Yadrat). My power level of Goku in the Buu arc is 90,000,000. In BOG I have him at 100,000,000.

[dragon boss z]

I mean even if you have him above Frieza, he still shouldn't be stronger than Piccolo or ssj Goku, but he is treated like he might be.

Well I'm also able to put him above SSJ Goku (Frieza arc), and rivals Piccolo (Android arc) as well as Goku (from Yadrat). My power level of Goku in the Buu arc is 90,000,000. In BOG I have him at 100,000,000.[/quote]

I mean they talk as if he is pretty strong, though your levels aren't really contradicted. To me though it seems at least post ROSAT base Gotenks is above buu saga Piccolo considering Piccolo seemed impressed by his power, though it isn't actually stated either so it could just be overlooked.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

[dragonball0900]

I mean they talk as if he is pretty strong, though your levels aren't really contradicted. To me though it seems at least post ROSAT base Gotenks is above buu saga Piccolo considering Piccolo seemed impressed by his power, though it isn't actually stated either so it could just be overlooked.

I'd recommend it to be overlooked. Piccolo could probably refer to them as a "what if" they transform into a SSJ, however that might not be the case either. It seems to me that Piccolo wasn't portrayed that well in this arc (such as being weaker than someone who is afraid of people that have to be weaker than him, I'm talking about Supreme Kai), there are some statements that seem to think that the base saiyans (except for Goten and Trunks) are above Piccolo. However, most of these statements can easily be disregarded and follow with the base saiyans < Piccolo thing.

[Darkprince410]

I'd recommend it to be overlooked. Piccolo could probably refer to them as a "what if" they transform into a SSJ, however that might not be the case either. It seems to me that Piccolo wasn't portrayed that well in this arc (such as being weaker than someone who is afraid of people that have to be weaker than him, I'm talking about Supreme Kai), there are some statements that seem to think that the base saiyans (except for Goten and Trunks) are above Piccolo. However, most of these statements can easily be disregarded and follow with the base saiyans < Piccolo thing.

Piccolo wasn't aware of Gotenks' ability to transform after fusing, so his statement could only be in reference to their base form. Kaioushin's fear of Babi-di's men can be attributed to the indicated possibility that Babi-di's men can't be sensed, and that he's going solely off the reputation that he only recruits the strongest fighters in the universe.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I agree they are stronger, but not way stronger, and no, it is never actually confirmed they are stronger, it is just implied since Goku said he couldn't beat Super Buu.

SSJ Gotenks pre rosat at the very least is weaker than Fat Boo, but not far behind him, but not as strong as SSJ3 Goku. (I say this because Goku said they'd be ready in two days and them achieving SSJ for the first time was before the two days. And then Super Boo happened before then). Piccolo even said in the anime that they are still not ready after going SSJ and need to finish the two days of training to be ready for Fatso.
But Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is no doubt above both Goku and Fat Boo.

SSJ2 Vegeta is nowhere near SSJ Gotenks pre or post ROSAT

I don think post Rosat ssj Gotenks is above ssj3 Goku. Fat Buu and ssj3 Goku aren't the same level. Fat Buu was just above high ssj2 tier but his regen made him impossible for anyone ssj2 level to beat him.

Goku stated that SSJ Gotenks will be capable of beating Fat boo and even took it a step further by saying he'd be above himself as a SSJ3. And Goku has no reason to lie, he estimated their power before fusing.

[dragonball0900]

I'd recommend it to be overlooked. Piccolo could probably refer to them as a "what if" they transform into a SSJ, however that might not be the case either. It seems to me that Piccolo wasn't portrayed that well in this arc (such as being weaker than someone who is afraid of people that have to be weaker than him, I'm talking about Supreme Kai), there are some statements that seem to think that the base saiyans (except for Goten and Trunks) are above Piccolo. However, most of these statements can easily be disregarded and follow with the base saiyans < Piccolo thing.

Piccolo wasn't aware of Gotenks' ability to transform after fusing, so his statement could only be in reference to their base form. Kaioushin's fear of Babi-di's men can be attributed to the indicated possibility that Babi-di's men can't be sensed, and that he's going solely off the reputation that he only recruits the strongest fighters in the universe.

I'm actually aware of your second point. That's why I said that most of these "base saiyans > Piccolo" statements from the Buu arc can be disregarded in favour of making them to have more sense. Kaioshin being afraid only because of the reputation of Babidi's fighters is a good example.

I'm also aware of Piccolo not knowing the ability of transforming when fusing. Maybe that line from Piccolo can either be disregarded or it can be taken as if he's just talking as a "what if" Gotenks could transform, even though Piccolo knew Gotenks can't.

[dragon boss z]

SSJ Gotenks pre rosat at the very least is weaker than Fat Boo, but not far behind him, but not as strong as SSJ3 Goku. (I say this because Goku said they'd be ready in two days and them achieving SSJ for the first time was before the two days. And then Super Boo happened before then). Piccolo even said in the anime that they are still not ready after going SSJ and need to finish the two days of training to be ready for Fatso.
But Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is no doubt above both Goku and Fat Boo.

SSJ2 Vegeta is nowhere near SSJ Gotenks pre or post ROSAT

I don think post Rosat ssj Gotenks is above ssj3 Goku. Fat Buu and ssj3 Goku aren't the same level. Fat Buu was just above high ssj2 tier but his regen made him impossible for anyone ssj2 level to beat him.

Goku stated that SSJ Gotenks will be capable of beating Fat boo and even took it a step further by saying he'd be above himself as a SSJ3. And Goku has no reason to lie, he estimated their power before fusing.

Goku could of easily beat Fat Buu and he did have a reason to lie. He told Buu someone stronger than him was coming to make Buu excited. Buu would get mad if Goku said someone weaker was coming. And if he told everyone that Gotenks might not be stronger than him they would be scared because they didn't know Goku was holding back on Buu.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

I don think post Rosat ssj Gotenks is above ssj3 Goku. Fat Buu and ssj3 Goku aren't the same level. Fat Buu was just above high ssj2 tier but his regen made him impossible for anyone ssj2 level to beat him.

Goku stated that SSJ Gotenks will be capable of beating Fat boo and even took it a step further by saying he'd be above himself as a SSJ3. And Goku has no reason to lie, he estimated their power before fusing.

Goku could of easily beat Fat Buu and he did have a reason to lie. He told Buu someone stronger than him was coming to make Buu excited. Buu would get mad if Goku said someone weaker was coming. And if he told everyone that Gotenks might not be stronger than him they would be scared because they didn't know Goku was holding back on Buu.

Goku never told his friends and family that Gotenks may not be able to win. He said once they perfect fusion there's no way they can lose. Goku wouldn't rise the fate of the universe on two kids who haven't had a real battle in their life if he was uncertain their power wouldn't be enough.
SSJ Gotenks pre ROSAT is at the very least capable of destroying Fat boo if we aren't to believe the anime filler where Piccolo says they need to finish the two days to face Fat boo. (After they return to the lookout after their SSJ Fusion wore off.)

[dragon boss z]

Goku stated that SSJ Gotenks will be capable of beating Fat boo and even took it a step further by saying he'd be above himself as a SSJ3. And Goku has no reason to lie, he estimated their power before fusing.

Goku could of easily beat Fat Buu and he did have a reason to lie. He told Buu someone stronger than him was coming to make Buu excited. Buu would get mad if Goku said someone weaker was coming. And if he told everyone that Gotenks might not be stronger than him they would be scared because they didn't know Goku was holding back on Buu.

Goku never told his friends and family that Gotenks may not be able to win. He said once they perfect fusion there's no way they can lose. Goku wouldn't rise the fate of the universe on two kids who haven't had a real battle in their life if he was uncertain their power wouldn't be enough.
SSJ Gotenks pre ROSAT is at the very least capable of destroying Fat boo if we aren't to believe the anime filler where Piccolo says they need to finish the two days to face Fat boo. (After they return to the lookout after their SSJ Fusion wore off.)

I'm not saying ssj Gotenks couldn't of beat Fat Buu. I'm saying ssj3 Goku>>>>Fat Buu, so Gotenks being able to beat Fat Buu means nothing in comparison to ssj3 Goku. And people are saying the daizenshuu says that ssj Gotenks surpassed ssj2 majin Vegeta after the ROSAT training, which would mean he was weaker prior. I don't know if that is true or not.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In topic, they didn't want to call them. They decided to have the earthlings do the job once. It's their home, after all. In real life it's because AT wanted the main hero to beat the final villian.

On the actual matter, SSJ Gotenks >>/> SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu is pretty much implied. I'm not sure if SSJ3 Goku can suppress his Chi since it's a new form, so i think he was only holding back his efforts. Buu seemed to not be going all out as well, since he was smilling during the fight. Anyway, Goku can't be much above Fat Buu considering Mr Buu (Who's most likely the same as Fat Buu) was able to fight evenly with Chibi Buu for a while.
Later, Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and leaves the fate of the planet, and the whole universe on the kids' hands, and even goes further and says Rosat won't be necessary. It's AT talking trough his characters, there is no reason to a fan opinion be above that. And later Piccolo is amazed by Gotenks' strength, saying he "Really is incredible" and asking to see his speed, instead of sending him to Rosat.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

In topic, they didn't want to call them. They decided to have the earthlings do the job once. It's their home, after all. In real life it's because AT wanted the main hero to beat the final villian.

On the actual matter, SSJ Gotenks >>/> SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu is pretty much implied. I'm not sure if SSJ3 Goku can suppress his Chi since it's a new form, so i think he was only holding back his efforts. Buu seemed to not be going all out as well, since he was smilling during the fight. Anyway, Goku can't be much above Fat Buu considering Mr Buu (Who's most likely the same as Fat Buu) was able to fight evenly with Chibi Buu for a while.
Later, Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and leaves the fate of the planet, and the whole universe on the kids' hands, and even goes further and says Rosat won't be necessary. It's AT talking trough his characters, there is no reason to a fan opinion be above that. And later Piccolo is amazed by Gotenks' strength, saying he "Really is incredible" and asking to see his speed, instead of sending him to Rosat.

But as others have said on here, Goku lied to Fat boo when he told him a stronger fighter than him would appear to make him happy, but was certain he'd be able to beat him and as we see later Goku was holding back power against Fat boo and lied to Piccolo when he said he was unsure he could win. The daisenshuu quote saying Gotenks surpassed Vegeta (not Goku) after ROSAT training.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In topic, they didn't want to call them. They decided to have the earthlings do the job once. It's their home, after all. In real life it's because AT wanted the main hero to beat the final villian.

On the actual matter, SSJ Gotenks >>/> SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu is pretty much implied. I'm not sure if SSJ3 Goku can suppress his Chi since it's a new form, so i think he was only holding back his efforts. Buu seemed to not be going all out as well, since he was smilling during the fight. Anyway, Goku can't be much above Fat Buu considering Mr Buu (Who's most likely the same as Fat Buu) was able to fight evenly with Chibi Buu for a while.
Later, Goku says Gotenks will be stronger than him and leaves the fate of the planet, and the whole universe on the kids' hands, and even goes further and says Rosat won't be necessary. It's AT talking trough his characters, there is no reason to a fan opinion be above that. And later Piccolo is amazed by Gotenks' strength, saying he "Really is incredible" and asking to see his speed, instead of sending him to Rosat.

But as others have said on here, Goku lied to Fat boo when he told him a stronger fighter than him would appear to make him happy, but was certain he'd be able to beat him and as we see later Goku was holding back power against Fat boo and lied to Piccolo when he said he was unsure he could win. The daisenshuu quote saying Gotenks surpassed Vegeta (not Goku) after ROSAT training.

Nothing implies he was lying. On the contrary, Piccolo later confirms Gotenks is really incredible and wants to see his speed instead of send him to Rosat. And i'm not sure if Goku can suppress SSJ3, he has just unlocked the form and can barely maintain it.

[Berserker1921]

I have this theory; I just saw the clip of buuhan changing back into kid buu. Noticed he stayed in his buff form for a while. So my theory is that kid buu is simply making himself smaller but is keeping his buff buu strength. This could be the reason why he is so much more powerful than we thought.


https://youtu.be/Vf51y3HOWL4

So the heroes are essentially fighting a buff buu instead of a basic kid buu.

[TheDragonBallGuy75]

Story reason:
Goku and Vegeta are battle hungry manics that get hard at just the thought of a challenging fight. Risking Earth's destruction is a welcome price to pay to fight kid Buu in a dance of death. Plus they are too arrogant to outright accept help if they're hale and healthy.

Real reason:
Passing the torch on didn't work for Toriyama, and Goku was still too popular with people so he rewrote the ending to have Goku be the hero again, with a little bit of help from Hercule for comic relief.