Kid Buu fight... Why so complicated?

[Lord Beerus]

Story reason:
Goku and Vegeta are battle hungry manics that get hard at just the thought of a challenging fight. Risking Earth's destruction is a welcome price to pay to fight kid Buu in a dance of death. Plus they are too arrogant to outright accept help if they're hale and healthy.

That excuse doesn't even hold up well at all from an in-universe perspective because Kid Boo had already destroyed Earth and had the ability to teleport to anywhere in the universe. God knows what would have happen if Kid Boo stumbled upon New Namek and was feeling a little destructive. Goku and Vegeta would have really been up shit creek if Kid Boo nuked New Namek.

[dbgtFO]

Story reason:
Goku and Vegeta are battle hungry manics that get hard at just the thought of a challenging fight. Risking Earth's destruction is a welcome price to pay to fight kid Buu in a dance of death. Plus they are too arrogant to outright accept help if they're hale and healthy.

That excuse doesn't even hold up well at all from an in-universe perspective because Kid Boo had already destroyed Earth and had the ability to teleport to anywhere in the universe. God knows what would have happen if Kid Boo stumbled upon New Namek and was feeling a little destructive. Goku and Vegeta would have really been up shit creek if Kid Boo nuked New Namek.

I'm sure the story would present it like that, but the fact is Dende can just make new Dragon Balls, as strong as the Namekian ones. It would take him 100 days, but that is not a lot of time to wait and it was quite frankly bullshit, that he too was shitting himself, that Earth being destroyed also meant no more Dragon Balls.
Of course for their battle with Buu, there would be no way to gather enough power for the Genkidama, unless they persuaded people from the entire universe.
But at least we wouldn't have it in the back of our minds, that they could just revive Gohan and the brats.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Story reason:
Goku and Vegeta are battle hungry manics that get hard at just the thought of a challenging fight. Risking Earth's destruction is a welcome price to pay to fight kid Buu in a dance of death. Plus they are too arrogant to outright accept help if they're hale and healthy.

Real reason:
Passing the torch on didn't work for Toriyama, and Goku was still too popular with people so he rewrote the ending to have Goku be the hero again, with a little bit of help from Hercule for comic relief.

Thought Kanzenshuu of all places debunked the whole "fans wanted Goku so Toriyama brought Goku back" bullshit. It had nothing to do with fans. He just thought Gohan wasn't suited for the roll.

[MR.Mark]

Yeah, for all the bashing Super gets for having supposed inferior writing, the Buu saga is full of this kinda stuff. I mean it's not HORRIBLE, but it clearly lacks logic, it was clear that Toriyama's main concern was making Goku get the win.

[Darkprince410]

Real reason:
Passing the torch on didn't work for Toriyama, and Goku was still too popular with people so he rewrote the ending to have Goku be the hero again, with a little bit of help from Hercule for comic relief.

It's never been indicated or suggested that it was the opinion of others (fans or otherwise) that caused Toriyama to bring Goku back. By his own words, he (Toriyama) felt that Gohan was just not suited for it, and brought Goku back as a result.

[8000 Saiyan]

If I recall correctly, Goku said numerous times in the manga that he was no match for Super Buu.

Yeah, and the only reason Goku and Vegeta thought they could handle Kid Buu was because he was powered down. They weren't morons looking for a good fight until that happened, Goku was scared to fight Super Buu unfused.

But of course, since consistency and logic flys out the window at times in the Buu arc, a lot, they decide suddenly to gamble again.

BUT THEN, Goku comes to his senses and suggestions Gohan when they get there asses kicked...

BUT THEN Vegeta pointlessly gambles again, for drama reasons.

Toriyama just wanted the stakes to be higher for this fight.

[floofychan333]

You want to move the debate into this topic? fair enough.

Goku and Vegeta will take risks if there is a chance for a good fight, but will use strategy if they have no choice. There was no more fight to be had, getting Gohan to help would of made more sense. Help from earth that might work vs help from Goahn that WILL work. The choice was made for drama, not because it was in character.

If Vegeta always wants a good fight at the risk of everything why did he team up with Krillin and Gohan against Freeza?

Why did Goku accept Piccolo's help against Raditz? That's right he was trying to SAVE his son, he even gave his life for his son. He even gave his life for his son twice, and the EARTH for that matter, against Cell.

Goku probably didn't want to put his sons in a dangerous situation (which would be a change of heart from the Goku we know who sent his 4-year-old son to fight Vegeta) but hey, people can change. Also, Gotenks is too stupid and immature to do anything while Ultimate Gohan was hilariously weak.

[MR.Mark]

Ultimate Gohan was hilariously weak.

How so?

[8000 Saiyan]

Ultimate Gohan was hilariously weak? That makes no sense. He was dominating Super Buu, while Goku had no chance against him.

[floofychan333]

Ultimate Gohan was hilariously weak.

How so?

He only lasted a few episodes and got tossed away quickly. He was supposed to save Goten and Trunks and/or defeat Buu, but he didn't achieve either of these objectives.

[MR.Mark]

Blame that on how Toriyama wrote the story, not Gohan's power.

[STH]

Not really. Gotenks and Gohan are way stronger than Goku since that's stated in the manga.

"that's stated in the manga"
Which chapter?

Goku was afraid of fighting Super Buu, even with Vegeta's help, and he wanted to fuse with Vegeta. With Kid Buu, however, he was willing to fight with him, only for them to be equal. That means that Super Buu is stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu. Super Buu is also equal or inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks, who is weaker than Gohan.

Goku also put his trust on the fusion. It would be silly for Gotenks to be weaker than Goku especially since it's a fusion. We also have the SSJ multipliers. Gotenks is above SSJ2 Vegeta after the ROSAT training (stated in the guides), then we have SSJ2 and SSJ3 on top of it, obviously far outclassing SSJ3 Goku.

I think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Gotenks and Gohan.

Tell me where's proof that Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks?

1) http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/

-> “I think it’s Goku.” The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

-> How did you feel as you were drawing the final portions of the series?
So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up (Boo Arc), I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was. So my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!


2)

Goku was afraid of fighting Super Buu, even with Vegeta's help, and he wanted to fuse with Vegeta.

Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”

In these statements, people take it at face value and determine that Boo is simply stronger than Goku and Vegeta combined. However, this is wrong from a story telling perspective. When I look at this statement, Goku stated that they were inferior as a means to try to convince Vegeta to try fusion. If you line up the quotes and read them in the order in which they appear, that is how it appears. Not to mention Goku's 'playful' look on the very next page, which means the situation wasn't as serious as he was making it appear to be.

3)

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”

Fat (evil) Buu and Super Buu are same strength. But Super Buu's physique is more suitable for fighting. And;

Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…”
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiya-jin 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Buu, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiya-jin 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Buu
So, SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ssj3 Gotenks


4) http://magikarp46.com/dragonball/guideb ... racter.php

"He was born through Fusion, taught to Goten and Trunks by Gokuu as a last resort, for the purpose of defeating Majin Boo, who boasted absolute strength. After going through numerous failures, the combining was eventually successful. The two of them confined themselves in the Room of Spirit and Time and rushed to carry out their training as Gotenks. As a result, they leveled up to a strength that eclipses even Vegeta. However, they were taken in by the Boo who had absorbed his good self and powered up."

SSJ3 Gotenks > Ssj2 Vegeta


5) Another topic;
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/b ... u-1881835/

[STH]

The two of them confined themselves in the Room of Spirit and Time and rushed to carry out their training as Gotenks. As a result, they leveled up to a strength that eclipses even Vegeta.

Base Gotenks = Base Vegeta
SSJ2 Gotenks = SSJ2 Vegeta
Evil Fat Buu = Super Buu > SSJ2 Gotenks = SSJ2 Vegeta

[Juub]

And here we go for another Super Buu vs Kid Buu vs Goku round. Hadn't seen one of those in a while.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It look like we have a severe case of Gokuism here

And weren't scans ilegal here or anything?

[LowRyder2005]

1 and 2 are woefully irrelevant. 1 is just exploiting the embellishment/praise of an interviewer -- besides, it already sounds like an unrealistic claim, since Goku is generally described as the strongest, but he's not always the strongest character in the manga. 2 just states that Toriyama thought Goku had hit his limit.

3. This argument always seems like one of the most intellectually dishonest to me, as Piccolo also states "everything about Buu is greater than before" in the same pages.
4. I have the actual scan of the Daizenshuu with me and I'm pretty convinced that the excerpt can be translated as "after training in the ROSAT, Gotenks' strength far surpassed/ eclipsed Vegeta's". As in "if before they were at least remotely comparable", they are not comparable after. If so, "surpassing" wouldn't mean he went from weaker to stronger. I.E. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta right off the bat, which is what the manga obviously implies in huge capital letters, and "far" surpassed him post-ROSAT. This makes also sense, given that post-ROSAT Gotenks get a sizable boost in power and also unlocks Super Saiyan 3.

5. Recently, you have material for Super that states that describes "Ultimate Gohan" as the "Gohan who had surpassed his father". If there's room to at least claim Kid Buu might have been stronger than Super Buu (and that he played with Goku all along?) in any medium because of other anime-related sources that state this verbatim, Goku being stronger than Gohan in the Buu arc just has overwhelming evidence against it for anyone who, I dare say, is intellectually honest, at this point and doesn't want to play devil's advocate in favor of Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I found funny how "Gokuists" say Super Buu ~ Fat Buu yet Gotenks's bio on Daiz says Super Buu is stronger:

He was born through Fusion, taught to Goten and Trunks by Gokuu as a last resort, for the purpose of defeating Majin Boo, who boasted absolute strength. After going through numerous failures, the combining was eventually successful. The two of them confined themselves in the Room of Spirit and Time and rushed to carry out their training as Gotenks. As a result, they leveled up to a strength that eclipses even Vegeta. However, they were taken in by the Boo who had absorbed his good self and powered up.

And 5 is Toshit's stuff lmao.