Broli and Coola are really canon?

[Bullza]

Toriyama did the designs for several different movie characters. Besides Cooler and Broly he also did the designs for

Dr. Wheelo, Lord Slug, Androids 13, 14 and 15, Bojack and Tapion.

Didn't he do a bunch of designs for GT too? Like most of updated looks of the returning characters?

I know he did some design work, I'm not sure what exactly. Maybe he did Goku, Trunks and Pan, pretty sure he did Giru, he did Super Saiyan 4 and the GT logo. Aside from that I don't know what else he did.

I don't think he did designs for Vegeta, Gohan, Goten etc but I wouldn't know.

[dario03]

Toriyama did the designs for several different movie characters. Besides Cooler and Broly he also did the designs for

Dr. Wheelo, Lord Slug, Androids 13, 14 and 15, Bojack and Tapion.

Didn't he do a bunch of designs for GT too? Like most of updated looks of the returning characters?

I know he did some design work, I'm not sure what exactly. Maybe he did Goku, Trunks and Pan, pretty sure he did Giru, he did Super Saiyan 4 and the GT logo. Aside from that I don't know what else he did.

I don't think he did designs for Vegeta, Gohan, Goten etc but I wouldn't know.

You sure about SS4? I don't think he did that one.

[Bullza]

You sure about SS4? I don't think he did that one.

Yeah actually I think I might have just got it confused with some drawing he did for it. According to the Wiki Super Saiyan 4 was actually designed by Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru.

[dragon boss z]

Canon is not short for continuity. Canon is short for Canonicity. Also there is no phrasing of "it is not canon" because "canon" is not an adjective. The adjective is "canonical". In fiction it is just synonymously used for "in-continuity" questions very often.

You are right canon isn't short for continuity, but I think they come from the same root word.

I don't know why you feel the need to tell me anything.

You said someone didn't know what canon was because he said the character's weren't canon. But he was clearly referring to the main accepted canon, which he is correct. RoF and Super made it clear Cooler isn't canon, and some of the movies literally can't fit into the timeline of the main story.

And no, there is nothing canonical and non-canonical to anything because Dragon Ball is in a state of absolute lose and undefined canonicity with sloppy rules where we have "somewhat" of a sight of the things and yet they still do not know it because it is undefined. And the terms "different dimension" or "side-story" or anything like that have nothing to do with canonicity before that comes in your next post. This is not my first talk about canonicity in fiction. Own the brand, own the rights. The owners do not want a clearly defined canonicity. Things are foggy as of now. I am a fan of lots of fictional pieces with actual canonicity where fans still argue about it as if they could decide anything.

Now I pretty much agree with you here. Dragon ball doesn't have a defined canon. For example there is the anime and the manga. The BoG and RoF movies, and the Super versions. The super anime and super manga. Kai and Z. GT and Super, ect. However things can be considered canon to themselves. For example, everything that happens in the manga is canon to the manga. Everything that happens in the Super anime is canon to the Super anime.

The OP is almost definitely talking about canon to the main story (so either the original manga or anime). The movie characters aren't a part of the manga canon, however the original anime is a little more dubious since it included garlic jr. and GT was a continuation of Z, and GT had a cameo of Cooler and Broly. So you could maybe say they are canon to the old Z anime. But considering the OP probably doesn't consider GT canon and goes by the Super canon, no the movie characters aren't a part of that. And this is pretty much indisputable since Cooler wasn't mentioned in the RoF arc and Broly wasn't mentioned when everyone saw Kale's transformation.

[TheMikado]

Didn't he do a bunch of designs for GT too? Like most of updated looks of the returning characters?

I know he did some design work, I'm not sure what exactly. Maybe he did Goku, Trunks and Pan, pretty sure he did Giru, he did Super Saiyan 4 and the GT logo. Aside from that I don't know what else he did.

I don't think he did designs for Vegeta, Gohan, Goten etc but I wouldn't know.

You sure about SS4? I don't think he did that one.

Toriyama conceptualized and named GT. Grand Tour, as he thought of it as a great adventure. He designed all of the initial main cast, their spaceship, Giru, wrote various notes, and drew concept art for various locals that eventually appeared in the series. He did not design SSJ4, but it is stated that Toriyama is fond of both GT and SSJ4.

"Just as he came up with the “Z” title, Toriyama came up with the name “GT” as well. In his Dragon Box GT intro, he says that “in car lingo, GT means ‘Gran Turismo’: a fast, high-powered car, in other words. But in this case, I had GT mean ‘Grand Touring’, a great journey, since the scenario was that they’d be running around the universe.” The GT Perfect File Vol. 1 mentions that the name could also mean “Galaxy Touring”, though this does not seem to have been Toriyama’s intention.

Besides coming up with the title, Toriyama also drew a rough design for the GT logo, which is shown on page 82 of the GT Perfect File Vol. 2 and was reprinted in the Dragon Book included with the Dragon Box GT. His design was essentially the same as what the logo ultimately ended up looking like."

"Toriyama designed the spaceship which Goku and company use to hunt for the Dragon Balls throughout the universe. Like his Giru design, Toriyama’s spaceship drawings were printed in Weekly Shōnen Jump No. 52, 1995, and later reprinted in Daizenshuu 7 and the GT Perfect File Vol. 1. They include fairly detailed notes, which unfortunately are left out of the Perfect Files reprint."

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/

[rereboy]

Dragon Ball doesn't have an officially defined Canon. The fans can only try to guess what it would be since it's not up to the fans to define it. Toriyama coming up with their designs doesn't define DB Canon.

[Cetra]

However things can be considered canon to themselves. For example, everything that happens in the manga is canon to the manga. Everything that happens in the Super anime is canon to the Super anime.

That is a nonsensical view though. The question of canonicity is brought up to find out what is related to something else, not to find out that "1 is 1".That is like saying "well game x with that one ending has that as true ending" instead of asking about a game with multiple endings which one there is the true ending. So basically you cannot even say that the manga is canonical to the manga because that is a completely wrong approach using the word "canonical". It does not provide an actual answer.

But he was clearly referring to the main accepted canon, which he is correct.

That's another part of the problem. Thinking that fans accepting and not accepting anything has any power without a final word from an official body. The fans can accept what they want. It will not change anything.

[GodKaio-Ken]

No they arent Canon. If they do exist in our universe they are not the movie incarnations and our heros have never met them.

I actually think the Super T.O.P would be a great place to introduce Cooler. Imagine someone drops out when Frieza joins only for Frieza to be like..."Hmmm well...I COULD ask my brother."

[AloversGaming]

Nowhere close to canon. The characters in the manga, anime of Z, or Super have never mentioned or shown any memory of meeting the non-canon movie characters.

Designed by the creator means nothing until he states they are apart of his official work or what he considers worthy canon sequel (Super anime) like he did with GT being its own side story.

[TheGreatness25]

Just to throw a monkey wrench into it, Toei owns Dragon Ball, so technically, wouldn't whatever they do be considered canon? I'm serious. I'm not trying to start anything, but I see people talking about Akira Toriyama a lot, but I feel like Toei is the true owner of Dragon Ball and if that's the case, then really, it's their story and they set what's canon and not. I can say that Toei is the rightful owner of the DB series because they created an entire series and didn't even have to consult Akira Toriyama about it. They have free reign over the series. So I guess it's kind of like they are the ones who tell Akira Toriyama what they want out of the series. Sounds like they're the owners and Akira Toriyama is basically their employee, no different than a regular TV show writer.

I'm so annoyed that the big debate of Dragon Ball in the 2010s has been what is and what isn't canon. So Akira Toriyama giving someone else bullet points for Super is canon, but his character designs aren't? What's the bar that this series' "canocity" is measured by?

[_Auspex_]

I see people talking about Akira Toriyama a lot, but I feel like Toei is the true owner of Dragon Ball and if that's the case, then really, it's their story and they set what's canon and not. I can say that Toei is the rightful owner of the DB series because they created an entire series and didn't even have to consult Akira Toriyama about it.

1. The anime wouldn't exist at all if Akira Toriyama didn't create the DB manga. Toriyama is not just some "employee" who writes scripts for Toei.

2. Toei owns the rights to produce the DB anime but they do not own DB. Look at it this way

Who owns the rights to Star Wars?
In October 2012, The Walt Disney Company agreed to buy Lucasfilm and announced that Star Wars Episode VII would be released in 2015. Later, it was revealed that the three new upcoming films (Episodes VII–IX) would be based on story treatments that had been written by George Lucas prior to the sale of Lucasfilm.

Disney is producing the new Star Wars movies but they did not create Star Wars. If Disney says something tomorrow that completely contradicts the original trilogy and the prequels, and George Lucas says "no that's wrong/not true/never happened/etc", who will you believe?

You already know that Toei's anime flat out contradicts Toriyama's manga. In the manga villains are not allowed to keep their bodies in the afterlife, Kaiosama never lied to Goku that Planet Vegeta was destroyed by its own god, and the whole Fake Planet Namek adventure and the Garlic Jr. story arc never happened.
If Toei says tomorrow that Vegeta is Goten's real father or that Raditz is not actually Goku's brother but Broly is, would you believe them? Would you believe them if Toriyama doesn't say "that's bullshit"? Would Toriyama need to explicitly debunk this new information in an interview before you can dismiss what Toei said as complete bullshit?

Think about it.

[Cetra]

Disney is producing the new Star Wars movies but they did not create Star Wars. If Disney says something tomorrow that completely contradicts the original trilogy and the prequels, and George Lucas says "no that's wrong/not true/never happened/etc", who will you believe?

Disney. Mr. Lucas has no say in that. It is no longer his property. That is how rights, money and property work. George Lucas can say whatever he wants. He doesn't own Star Wars, his word cannot change anything. If you do not want to lose your right to decide don't give away your right to decide. George Lucas does not have the power to say something like "Ep. 7 is non-canonical" just because he originally made Star Wars.

[_Auspex_]

Disney is producing the new Star Wars movies but they did not create Star Wars. If Disney says something tomorrow that completely contradicts the original trilogy and the prequels, and George Lucas says "no that's wrong/not true/never happened/etc", who will you believe?

Disney. Mr. Lucas has no say in that. It is no longer his property. That is how rights work. George Lucas can say whatever he wants. He doesn't own Star Wars, his word cannot change anything. If you do not want to lose your right to decide don't give away your right to decide.

Really? So if Disney says tomorrow that Han Solo and Chewbacca were lovers and by the way Chewbacca is actually a transsexual woman, you will believe them? Really?

Or how about this, Disney says tomorrow that Darth Vader is not actually Luke's father, it was all just a big misunderstanding. Will you believe them?

[Cetra]

This is no question of "really". This is how it works. It is their intellectual and legal property. Disney has the right to retcon whatever they want so while they would never do the points you have said, yes, they have all the right in the world to do so.

You would not ask these questions if you were in this position. If I were to invent something and you would get full creative rights over that and I cannot do anything about that anymore but would say "ah, well, but that's not what it originally was" you would say "doesn't matter what you said. i am the owner now."

And you would be totally right with that. There is a significant difference in consulting the original creator because he has a "feeling" for it because he originally owned it and actually saying "that person still has the power to decide. If Disney consults George Lucas for something it is their decision and they have the final say. Own the brand, own the rights. This is very essential. And George Lucas already had to deal with that because he wanted to give certain tips about what Ep. 7 should be about and they did not do it. You know why? Because they decide, not him. They say what Ep. 7 is. What he says what Ep. 7 should be is of no relevance. Even if they would have listened to them it would have been their decision with them having the last word. You see there is no getting around that.

You cannot expect to give away your property and still expect to have the privileges of the owner. What did you get the money for then? And how is someone that gives away his property still the owner? He isn't. And if you do not own the property you also do not have the privileges. You can only consider yourself glad if the new people respect your opinion so much that they still consult you. And even then it only becomes canonical because they as the new owners make it so. You are just a random person that owns nothing of it since you have sold it.

By the way, George Lucas is not the only one who wrote Star Wars. One of the original main writers still writes for Star Wars.

[Zephyr]

It makes little sense to call something simply "canon". It makes a lot more sense to ask if Coola and Broly are canon.....to some specific work in particular. Broly is not canon to Dragon Ball Super. Broly is canon to Dragon Ball Z Movie 12. Coola is canon to Plan to Eradicate the (Super) Saiyans. The Dragon Ball Z anime by Toei is canon to Dragon Ball GT. The Bardock TV Special by Toei is not canon to Toriyama's Dragon Ball Minus. Dragon Ball Z Movie 1 is canon the the Garlic Jr. arc.

And so on.

It doesn't matter if something is a spin off or a side story, it can still be canon to certain other works, even new and ongoing ones. Anything and everything has the potential to be canon to future works that have yet to be created, since Toriyama more than likely doesn't care, and Shueisha and Toei will mine anything and everything they care to in order to push merchandise. Nothing is ever permanently condemned to eternal non-canonicity to anything that will ever be made again. Except maybe Dragon Ball Evolution.

[_Auspex_]

Nothing is ever permanently condemned to eternal non-canonicity to anything that will ever be made again. Except maybe Dragon Ball Evolution.

Not necessarily. Toriyama's comments about Bardock, i.e. that Bardock was a low-class warrior who never became a mid-class warrior, make the Episode Of Bardock anime and manga impossible. Would a SSJ Bardock still be considered low-class? I don't think so.

Toriyama's DB Minus makes Toei's Bardock TV Special completely impossible. Bardock is now literally responsible for Goku's survival. That's a huge revelation and I guarantee you that Toei is not going to contradict Toriyama about this in any future anime.

Revival Of Freeza manga and anime makes Toei's depiction of Freeza in the afterlife impossible and creates a major continuity problem with DBGT.

[floofychan333]

So ... is it confirmed that Broli and Coola are canon?
This changes everything in what is said on the internet

I don't think they're canon simply because they're designed by Akira Toriyama. Bardock is different because he appeared in the anime and I think the manga too.

[ShadowBardock89]

Nothing is ever permanently condemned to eternal non-canonicity to anything that will ever be made again. Except maybe Dragon Ball Evolution.

Not necessarily. Toriyama's comments about Bardock, i.e. that Bardock was a low-class warrior who never became a mid-class warrior, make the Episode Of Bardock anime and manga impossible. Would a SSJ Bardock still be considered low-class? I don't think so.

Technically, Goku is low-class and he became Super Saiyan before Vegeta. Where was it stated that Bardock was a mid-class warrior?

Back to the topic,
the fact Broly and Cooler are not referenced AT ALL in Toriyama's work means they are not in the main continuity. Now, you could make the argument are canon, but in an alternate timeline/reality.

[Grimlock]

Toriyama's DB Minus makes Toei's Bardock TV Special completely impossible.

Not completely. Bardock facing Freeza seen in his TV Special is still canon, as it appears in chapter 307.

[Duo]

In all internet it is spoken of the canon and not canon, but always it is said that the characters that appear in the films are not canon since they did not them Akira Toriyama.
However, I started reading the page of Kanzenshuu, the section of Bardack, and I find out about this ...

Villains such as Coola and Broli were actually originally designed by Akira Toriyama, despite only appearing in the theatrical features.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/tidbits/the-h ... f-bardock/

Is this really true?
Are there any books where they can assure this comment?

Thanks & Regards

Akira Toriyama also designed characters from Chrono Trigger and the Dragon Quest series, as well as Blue Dragon some years later. Nothing about that makes those games or designs related to the continuity of Dragon Ball at all whatsoever.