Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

[dragonball0900]

I don't think you got what i said. I said Gohan powering up from a suppressed level (The one he used to punch the machine without breaking it) to a level above Kibito
would reveal his aura and his powers to the others. I'm not sure if Vegeta and Recoome account, since neither of them can suppress their powers like Gohan can.

Yeah, the Daiz isn't 100% accurate. Implying both Shin > Piccolo and Yakon > Shin shows is. Same with saying Recoome killed Kuririn, or the Kids fighting on pair with 18.

Why powering up to about 50% would reveal the aura? To be honest, it's not obligatory for that to happen. And again, the Daiz doesn't say Yakon is stronger than Shin (reasons I will say below).

And as i said, Shin knows Yakon. Even though he doesn't know Pocus and was guessing by his reputation, he recognizes Yakon the moment he appears and explain his skills to the others. And why would Babidi send guys weaker than Shin? Why don't start by Dabura? About SSJ2 Gohan, it's a plothole. Why would he be scared of Dabura as well while SSJ2 Gohan can vaporize him? Even if Gohan was a SSJ2, he showed to have a good advantage over Dabura, tanking his blast and breaking his Sword.

Because Babidi wanted to kill Kaioshin by himself. He only sent guys weaker than Kaioshin because Babidi wanted to focus on Vegeta, Goku and Gohan, to know how strong they are and to get energy for Majin Buu. There's also the fact that Babidi probably doesn't know how strong his warriors are. He obviously sent them and only thought they are terribly strong judging by their skills, and he also gave them a majin boost. Babidi and Dabura don't know how to sense ki. They only know it by a magical way (like how they did it outside the ship). And before you ask that they would be able to sense Kaioshin, they can't because Kaioshin can't be sensed.

Just because Kaioshin knows Yakon and his skills, it doesn't mean he knows how strong is he. There's no reason to think why it would be that way. Kaioshin knowing Yakon's strenght is just speculation. He could've heard it from someone else if that's the case.

Neither a SSJ could do that. Buu is toying, just like when he didn't one shot Vegeta even though he was at his Full Power.

Fat Buu wasn't at his full power when he didn't defeat Vegeta. And remember that the level Fat Buu used against Kaioshin, Gohan and Dabura, is weaker than the level he used to defeat Vegeta. Considering how he defeated Dabura with ease, I can't see how a base saiyan would survive that. Kaioshin did, and Gohan barely did.

Vegeta, and especially Goku would be willing to fight Shin. I'm pretty sure the last thing Piccolo want is to Goku punch the God of Gods in the face. But Gohan and Kuririn really would be worried, it's not every day that the Lord of Lords visits Earth. What contradicts Piccolo's quote for me is his perfomace at the Ship, AT wanted Shin to be a badass, but he either was hyping him or changed his mind. Unless his performace implies Base Saiyans > Piccolo, what seems unlikely.

I'm not sure that Piccolo would mind if Goku do that. Also, Goku and the others clearly wanted to know about Kaioshin's strenght. As I said, the line is said there for a good reason, to judge how strong he is. The answers Goku, Krillin and the others give wouldn't make sense if Piccolo is talking about the god position. The Daizenshuu also says that Piccolo is below Kaioshin. And for the reasons I said above, I don't the performance Kaioshin gave at the ship is contradictory. It does seem contradictory at first glance, I did it previously, but now I can see that everything can fit nicely in the puzzle. Piccolo being below Kaioshin does not contradict anything at all if you look at it carefully.

Oh, i see. But i think he was surprised with how the True Saiyans blow the Estimated Saiyans out of the water. Shin already implied to be weaker than Base Saiyans earlier: Remember when Goku said he can't beat Goku at the Budokai? Yeah, he was guessing by his reputation, but he still thought Goku should be stronger than him. And when Vegeta kills Pocus he said they were even stronger than he thought. He pretty much says Base Saiyans >>> Estimated SSJs >>> Himself.

Except that Kaioshin was aware of the SSJ. He knew he was going to lose against the SSJ's, not in base forms. As for what happens in the ship, as I said before Kaioshin didn't know how strong Babidi's guys were, he thought they were really strong and was surprised to see the base saiyans manage to defeat them easily.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why powering up to about 50% would reveal the aura? To be honest, it's not obligatory for that to happen. And again, the Daiz doesn't say Yakon is stronger than Shin (reasons I will say below).

Powering up from a really low level to 50% of his power would be a huge leap, i think it'd have an aura. Is it possible he was guessing by his appearence, too.

Because Babidi wanted to kill Kaioshin by himself. He only sent guys weaker than Kaioshin because Babidi wanted to focus on Vegeta, Goku and Gohan, to know how strong they are and to get energy for Majin Buu. There's also the fact that Babidi probably doesn't know how strong his warriors are. He obviously sent them and only thought they are terribly strong judging by their skills, and he also gave them a majin boost. Babidi and Dabura don't know how to sense ki. They only know it by a magical way (like how they did it outside the ship). And before you ask that they would be able to sense Kaioshin, they can't because Kaioshin can't be sensed.

Just because Kaioshin knows Yakon and his skills, it doesn't mean he knows how strong is he. There's no reason to think why it would be that way. Kaioshin knowing Yakon's strenght is just speculation. He could've heard it from someone else if that's the case.

If one of the Henchmen started to manhandle the Saiyans, wouldn't Pocus go there and kill him? Babidi most likely wants the henchment to knock him out and Babidi himself deals with him later. Shin himself later implies he can take care of Babidi, so i think Babidi wants to torture and kill a weakened Shin who can't defend himself.

So Babidi recruits his henchmen based on reputation? Why didn't he take Freeza as his henchmen? He still have that Kili stuff, so he should know how strong his henchmen are.

The fact Shin wants to team up implies he knows how strong Yakon is. Why would he know everything about him, except his strength? That's the most important thing he should now.

Fat Buu wasn't at his full power when he didn't defeat Vegeta. And remember that the level Fat Buu used against Kaioshin, Gohan and Dabura, is weaker than the level he used to defeat Vegeta. Considering how he defeated Dabura with ease, I can't see how a base saiyan would survive that. Kaioshin did, and Gohan barely did.

Fat Buu does two or three power ups, depending on how you interpret. One to kill Dabura and screw Shin and Gohan, another one when Vegeta arrives and the final one when Vegeta opens a whole on his body, and is after his final power up that he starts to pummel Vegeta. So yeah, he was at full power and not trying to kill Vegeta. Dabura called him stupid or something, and Buu was mad at him. Gohan was also in pretty good shape after Buu's first hit, showing how Buu wasn't trying to kill them at that momment.

I'm not sure that Piccolo would mind if Goku do that. Also, Goku and the others clearly wanted to know about Kaioshin's strenght. As I said, the line is said there for a good reason, to judge how strong he is. The answers Goku, Krillin and the others give wouldn't make sense if Piccolo is talking about the god position. The Daizenshuu also says that Piccolo is below Kaioshin. And for the reasons I said above, I don't the performance Kaioshin gave at the ship is contradictory. It does seem contradictory at first glance, I did it previously, but now I can see that everything can fit nicely in the puzzle. Piccolo being below Kaioshin does not contradict anything at all if you look at it carefully.

Again, i think Piccolo was lying about Shin to don't make the other be like "Wtf God is here?". If he don't want to punch him, why would he let Goku or Vegeta? I still think him at the Ship shows he's a disapointment, considering he say he needs help to beat Babidi even before he knew Dabura was his henchmen.

Except that Kaioshin was aware of the SSJ. He knew he was going to lose against the SSJ's, not in base forms. As for what happens in the ship, as I said before Kaioshin didn't know how strong Babidi's guys were, he thought they were really strong and was surprised to see the base saiyans manage to defeat them easily.

This has nothing to do with Pocus. Look:
- Kaioshin thinks SSJs >>> Him
- He sees Vegeta's true power in action. He know thinks Base Saiyans >>> Expected SSJs.
- Base Saiyans >>> Expected SSJs >>> Kaioshin.

[dragonball0900]

Powering up from a really low level to 50% of his power would be a huge leap, i think it'd have an aura. Is it possible he was guessing by his appearence, too.

Yes, but it doesn't really mean it has to show an aura. Using 50% of power is also a huge holding up too.

If one of the Henchmen started to manhandle the Saiyans, wouldn't Pocus go there and kill him? Babidi most likely wants the henchment to knock him out and Babidi himself deals with him later. Shin himself later implies he can take care of Babidi, so i think Babidi wants to torture and kill a weakened Shin who can't defend himself.

So Babidi recruits his henchmen based on reputation? Why didn't he take Freeza as his henchmen? He still have that Kili stuff, so he should know how strong his henchmen are.

The fact Shin wants to team up implies he knows how strong Yakon is. Why would he know everything about him, except his strength? That's the most important thing he should now.

Let's also remember he has Dabura to that very same job, weaking Kaioshin for Babidi to deal with him (much like how it happened in the Super manga). However, Babidi wasn't taking that into consideration the other henchmen to attack Kaioshin at all.

Yeah, but does he know how strong Kaioshin is in Kilis? As far as I'm aware, he can't be sensed because he's a Kaioshin, and I don't think the kili measures would be able to measure his power for Babidi to have a clear idea of comparison between Kaioshin and his henchmen.

Kaioshin told them to team up because, as I said, he doesn't know how strong Yakon is. He just heard of him, and just had a vague idea that Yakon could gave them trouble. There's nothing stated that he knows how strong Yakon is. He just assumed his strenght based on what he knew about him (the skills and all of that).

Fat Buu does two or three power ups, depending on how you interpret. One to kill Dabura and screw Shin and Gohan, another one when Vegeta arrives and the final one when Vegeta opens a whole on his body, and is after his final power up that he starts to pummel Vegeta. So yeah, he was at full power and not trying to kill Vegeta. Dabura called him stupid or something, and Buu was mad at him. Gohan was also in pretty good shape after Buu's first hit, showing how Buu wasn't trying to kill them at that momment.

Where was it said that Fat Buu used all of his power against Vegeta? He seems to hold his own against a SSJ3 Goku too, seems to be much stronger than how he fought Vegeta.

Again, i think Piccolo was lying about Shin to don't make the other be like "Wtf God is here?". If he don't want to punch him, why would he let Goku or Vegeta? I still think him at the Ship shows he's a disapointment, considering he say he needs help to beat Babidi even before he knew Dabura was his henchmen.

Yes, I can see him not wanting Kaioshin to fight Goku and Vegeta, but I don't see why he should have the need to lie to them. He respects the god, but saying that he's way higher in power would make Goku and Vegeta feel more motivated, now that I think about it. And since Piccolo said he's way above him, surely that sounds like SSJ or SSJ2 tier to me. Kaioshin does not have to be below Piccolo, or worse, below the base saiyans. Since the Daizenshuu does say otherwise, as well as the reasons I said above Kaioshin being way stronger than Pui Pui and Yakon, then I have no problem with that.

This has nothing to do with Pocus. Look:
- Kaioshin thinks SSJs >>> Him
- He sees Vegeta's true power in action. He know thinks Base Saiyans >>> Expected SSJs.
- Base Saiyans >>> Expected SSJs >>> Kaioshin.

The first point you are correct. The second, I already explained that Kaioshin simply wasn't hoping for the saiyans to defeat Babidi's warriors. That's what happened. We shouldn't really underestimate Kaioshin just because of his bad behaviour. That's what I can say.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes, but it doesn't really mean it has to show an aura. Using 50% of power is also a huge holding up too.

Yeah, assuming such power up would give him an aura may be a conjecture. We have examples of power ups without aura, like Perfect Cell during his fight with Vegeta. But there is something i noticed:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Apparently, the "Gods can't be sensed" stuff is not a retcon and is implied on Z as well. Since Kibito is a magic being as well, i dunno he can be sensed. Even before the tournament, the Z Fighters are wondering who are Shin and Kibito, but doing no mention of their Ki.

Let's also remember he has Dabura to that very same job, weaking Kaioshin for Babidi to deal with him (much like how it happened in the Super manga). However, Babidi wasn't taking that into consideration the other henchmen to attack Kaioshin at all.

Yeah, but does he know how strong Kaioshin is in Kilis? As far as I'm aware, he can't be sensed because he's a Kaioshin, and I don't think the kili measures would be able to measure his power for Babidi to have a clear idea of comparison between Kaioshin and his henchmen.

Kaioshin told them to team up because, as I said, he doesn't know how strong Yakon is. He just heard of him, and just had a vague idea that Yakon could gave them trouble. There's nothing stated that he knows how strong Yakon is. He just assumed his strenght based on what he knew about him (the skills and all of that).

Why don't start by Dabura then? Yeah, maybe the henchmen wouldn't attack Shin, but Shin would dash on them if the Saiyans got manhandled. Then Shin would proceed killing the henchmens until Dabura came? I'm sure Babidi doesn't have his henchmen dying on his plans.

Babidi should know how strong Shin is. If he don't know, how can he be so sure Dabura is stronger than him?

By this logic, i can say Shin only knows Dabura's reputation and is stronger than him. Like i already said, he seems to know how strong Yakon is when he suggest team up.

Where was it said that Fat Buu used all of his power against Vegeta? He seems to hold his own against a SSJ3 Goku too, seems to be much stronger than how he fought Vegeta.

Full Power, but not full effort. The explosion he did that screw Vegeta's arm was the last one, so unless he did a silent power up that was his max. He could have one shotted Vegeta the moment he want, but he wanted to play with him. Same thing with Kaioshin.

Yes, I can see him not wanting Kaioshin to fight Goku and Vegeta, but I don't see why he should have the need to lie to them. He respects the god, but saying that he's way higher in power would make Goku and Vegeta feel more motivated, now that I think about it. And since Piccolo said he's way above him, surely that sounds like SSJ or SSJ2 tier to me. Kaioshin does not have to be below Piccolo, or worse, below the base saiyans. Since the Daizenshuu does say otherwise, as well as the reasons I said above Kaioshin being way stronger than Pui Pui and Yakon, then I have no problem with that.

Yeah, good point. Never thought by that logic. But like i said earlier on the same post, the "Gods can't be sensed" wasn't a retcon and was present on Z. So wouldn't Piccolo be overestimating Shin due to his position? Yeah, Kami seems to know the hierachy of power when he says Kaio is >> Enma back on Saiyan Arc, but it is possible he's mistaking him with the original Dai Kaioshin.

The first point you are correct. The second, I already explained that Kaioshin simply wasn't hoping for the saiyans to defeat Babidi's warriors. That's what happened. We shouldn't really underestimate Kaioshin just because of his bad behaviour. That's what I can say.

Then Babidi's henchmen fit between the Base Saiyans and the estimated SSJs. Shin himself knows he can't beat Babidi alone, and that was even before Dabura showed himself.

[ahill1]

Kaioshin is in between Cell Games Vegeta and Cell Games Goku to me, but closer to the latter.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, assuming such power up would give him an aura may be a conjecture. We have examples of power ups without aura, like Perfect Cell during his fight with Vegeta. But there is something i noticed:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Apparently, the "Gods can't be sensed" stuff is not a retcon and is implied on Z as well. Since Kibito is a magic being as well, i dunno he can be sensed. Even before the tournament, the Z Fighters are wondering who are Shin and Kibito, but doing no mention of their Ki.

They can't be sensed, but the fact that the lines in the manga (I mean more for Kaioshin) did say what they say, and that the Daizenshuu had no problem in making Kibito <= Base Gohan, then I don't know what would be the problem in making Kibito slightly below Base Gohan and Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo.

Why don't start by Dabura then? Yeah, maybe the henchmen wouldn't attack Shin, but Shin would dash on them if the Saiyans got manhandled. Then Shin would proceed killing the henchmens until Dabura came? I'm sure Babidi doesn't have his henchmen dying on his plans.

Babidi should know how strong Shin is. If he don't know, how can he be so sure Dabura is stronger than him?

By this logic, i can say Shin only knows Dabura's reputation and is stronger than him. Like i already said, he seems to know how strong Yakon is when he suggest team up.

As I said, there's no need in starting with Dabura when wanting to test the fighters' strenght. Babidi started with Pui Pui since he didn't know how strong the saiyans were. He simply didn't care for Kaioshin since he wanted to kill him himself and since Babidi doesn't know how strong Kaioshin then he wouldn't really matter if Kaioshin was there or not (which leaves me to the next point).

No, there's no reason to believe why Babidi would know Kaioshin's strenght, but he certainly knows that Dabura is the strongest probably because his kili readings give him a much higher reading, or maybe Dabura tested his strenght against other Babidi fighters (who knows if he did it with Yakon, he could have).

With Dabura, he could've know his strenght because maybe he knew him or something like that, maybe they fought with each other. Dabura is also known as the Demon King, obviously he would have a lot of information of him as well as the strenght.

With Yakon, is different. Kaioshin didn't lose hope when Yakon was there. And as I said before, Kaioshin suggested teaming up only because he knew Yakon was too strong, without knowing Yakon's or the saiyan's true strenght. Kaioshin only thought Yakon was going to be a threat, only to find out later that he wasn't.

Full Power, but not full effort. The explosion he did that screw Vegeta's arm was the last one, so unless he did a silent power up that was his max. He could have one shotted Vegeta the moment he want, but he wanted to play with him. Same thing with Kaioshin.

If he is not at full effort then he can't be at full power, and that doesn't explain how SSJ (or SSJ2 if you he was at the time) Gohan was knocked out and was inconcious by 2 hits, when Kaioshin recieved like 3 or 4 and was still awake.

Yeah, good point. Never thought by that logic. But like i said earlier on the same post, the "Gods can't be sensed" wasn't a retcon and was present on Z. So wouldn't Piccolo be overestimating Shin due to his position? Yeah, Kami seems to know the hierachy of power when he says Kaio is >> Enma back on Saiyan Arc, but it is possible he's mistaking him with the original Dai Kaioshin.

Why would Kami be mistaking him for the Dai Kaioshin? That wouldn't make sense with how the story was. Piccolo's line was there for a reason, and the Daizenshuu confirms the same.

Then Babidi's henchmen fit between the Base Saiyans and the estimated SSJs. Shin himself knows he can't beat Babidi alone, and that was even before Dabura showed himself.

That was probably because he didn't confront Babidi directly, and we know how Kaioshin is, really hopeless.

[LowRyder2005]

Yeah, the Daiz isn't 100% accurate. Implying both Shin > Piccolo and Yakon > Shin shows is.

I've glanced upon your (quite long, I have to say) exchange. Errors or not, I feel like this is such a gross misrepresentation that needs to be singled out: the Daizenshuu states in plain, simple, 100% clear-cut terms that Kaioshin has power superior to "Super Namek Piccolo's", and notes that Kaioshin fears Yakon. Fears can be completely irrational, though.

Would you say needles have the power to hurt Goku because Goku fears them? Obviously not. In the case of Kaioshin it could (and most likely does) simply have to do with being a bad judge because of panic.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, the Daiz isn't 100% accurate. Implying both Shin > Piccolo and Yakon > Shin shows is.

I've glanced upon your (quite long, I have to say) exchange. Errors or not, I feel like this is such a gross misrepresentation that needs to be singled out: the Daizenshuu states in plain, simple, 100% clear-cut terms that Kaioshin has power superior to "Super Namek Piccolo's", and notes that Kaioshin fears Yakon. Fears can be completely irrational, though.

Would you say needles have the power to hurt Goku because Goku fears them? Obviously not. In the case of Kaioshin it could (and most likely does) simply have to do with being a bad judge because of panic.

Needles can make Goku bleed

But serious, Shin seems to know who Yakon is and how strong he is. He wouldn't fear someone who he can beat by waving his hand. I don't buy the "Shin has PSTD" either. It was Buu who killed his friends, yet he's scared of the henchmens of Buu's "creator?" I don't buy it tbh. And Daiz also has another errors, like saying Recoome killed Kuririn or the Kids fought evenly with 18 (I do think the kids are stronger, but there is no way in hell that was a even fight).