Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Steven Bloodriver
I Live Here
Posts: 3477
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:06 pm

Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:13 pm

Or are they just rather close in power?

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21389
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:40 pm

Considering Kaioshin shit his pants at the prospect of SSJ Goku killing him, I wouldn't say so. Funny enough, I used to rate Kaioshin in pretty high regard considering his could paralyze SSJ2 Gohan, could withstand a beating from Majin Boo and was in a whole other league compared to Piccolo at that time, but rereading the Majin Boo arc in the manga has not done him any favors. I honestly think FPSSJ Goku from the Cell Games could kick his ass.

theherodjl
I Live Here
Posts: 2214
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:24 pm

Well, Kaioshin is confirmed to be stronger than Piccolo, who was last seen at a level just beneath a Cell Jr. If he continued training for the next 7 years then Piccolo at the very least is on par with a Cell Jr or slightly above, to play it safe.
Kaioshin was superior to this level but still inferior to Boo Arc Gohan(according to statements by Goku & Vegeta, he is either less powerful or less intense than his Kid self), Kaioshin is probably on par with Pre-ROSAT Goten or Trunks if anything.

Piccolo: 8(12 if he was in fact training)
Cell Jr: 10
Goten: 14
Trunks: 15
Gohan(Boo Arc): 17
Kaioshin: 14.5
Goku(Cell Games): 18
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Lord Frieza
I Live Here
Posts: 3801
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:36 pm

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by Lord Frieza » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:32 pm

You need to only be mid-android arc to beat Namek Frieza with one blow. He's probably android level at best.

User avatar
DB▪Magnum-Expert
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by DB▪Magnum-Expert » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:14 pm

Steven Bloodriver wrote:Or are they just rather close in power?
Yes

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
People I'm always keen to Debate with for the sole purpose of increasing experience and joy:

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:43 pm

Nope. He's most likely weaker than Base Saiyans, considering his statements prior and during the events on the spaceship. Piccolo was bluffing to don't make the others worried IMO.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

dragonball0900
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:26 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:You need to only be mid-android arc to beat Namek Frieza with one blow. He's probably android level at best.
Supreme Kai was said to be above Piccolo, who is already stronger than at least ASSJ Vegeta or 50% SSJ Goku (Cell Games) at this point of the series. He would be pretty high already at the scale, with only Dabura and the SSJs outclassing him at the time. However he is weaker than SSJ Gohan (Buu arc) who is at least a bit stronger than SSJ Goku (Cell Games), and at the same time weaker than his counterpart SSJ Gohan (Cell Games).
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Nope. He's most likely weaker than Base Saiyans, considering his statements prior and during the events on the spaceship. Piccolo was bluffing to don't make the others worried IMO.
Supreme Kai can't just be taken seriously, he seems pretty scared of everything and not knowing anything. Not to mention that the base saiyans are below Frieza, and Supreme Kai stomps Frieza with just one punch. It was never stated that Piccolo was bluffing, on the contrary, there are various sources that indicate Piccolo being way below Kaioshin.


These are my numbers for them:

ASSJ Vegeta - 1,200,000,000

Piccolo (Cell Games) - 1,400,000,000

50% SSJ Goku - 1,500,000,000

Cell Jr - 2,000,000,000

Piccolo (Buu Arc) - 2,000,000,000

Supreme Kai - 2,800,000,000

SSJ Goku (Cell Games) - 3,000,000,000

SSJ Gohan (Buu Arc) - 3,400,000,000

SSJ Gohan (Cell Games) - 3,600,000,000

So that means that Supreme Kai is not that far below SSJ Goku (Cell Games), they are really close in power, but with Goku being a better fighter and having a bit more of power advantage, not to mention the durability and strenght the saiyans have, as well as a Kaioshin's lack of fighting capability, that would make Goku able to defeat Supreme Kai with a little effort.
Last edited by dragonball0900 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Kaboom
Moderator
Posts: 14373
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Funky Town
Contact:

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by Kaboom » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:30 pm

Maybe not exactly equal, but that's the most likely range for Kaioshin's power. We're already told that he's WAAAAAY stronger than Freeza and at least moderately stronger than Piccolo. He seems to be weaker than Super Saiyan Goku since he backed down during their stand-off, but Goku has obviously improved a lot during the 7 years since the Cell Games. So being right around the same power that Goku used to have would probably fit together with everything pretty well.
deviantART
FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised
[thread]
Powar Levuls: Main Series | Movies and Specials | GT
Nintendo/PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader
ACNH Dream Address: DA-1637-4046-7415 ("SlamZone")
(Not) lost (enough) DB Super plots!
A handy video guide to Kanzenshuu-level grammar quality!

Hakaishin Liquir
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by Hakaishin Liquir » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:34 pm

theherodjl wrote:Well, Kaioshin is confirmed to be stronger than Piccolo, who was last seen at a level just beneath a Cell Jr. If he continued training for the next 7 years then Piccolo at the very least is on par with a Cell Jr or slightly above, to play it safe.
Kaioshin was superior to this level but still inferior to Boo Arc Gohan(according to statements by Goku & Vegeta, he is either less powerful or less intense than his Kid self), Kaioshin is probably on par with Pre-ROSAT Goten or Trunks if anything.

Piccolo: 8(12 if he was in fact training)
Cell Jr: 10
Goten: 14
Trunks: 15
Gohan(Boo Arc): 17
Kaioshin: 14.5
Goku(Cell Games): 18
Goten and Trunks aren't stronger than Piccolo.....

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:07 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Supreme Kai can't just be taken seriously, he seems pretty scared of everything and not knowing anything. Not to mention that the base saiyans are below Frieza, and Supreme Kai stomps Frieza with just one punch. It was never stated that Piccolo was bluffing, on the contrary, there are various sources that indicate Piccolo being way below Kaioshin.
He tells Goku he has zero confidence on beating him before the Budokai, and i don't see why Babidi would recruit guys weaker than Shin since he wasn't expecting the earthlings to be a big deal. He may be stronger than Pocus, but i'm sure he's weaker than Yakon. While it's never flat out stated Piccolo was lying, it's pretty implied when Shin is revealed to be a mess. Out universe i think Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, since he's the God of Gods. I don't buy Freeza > Base Saiyans btw, but let's not get out of topic here.
Hakaishin Liquir wrote:
theherodjl wrote:Well, Kaioshin is confirmed to be stronger than Piccolo, who was last seen at a level just beneath a Cell Jr. If he continued training for the next 7 years then Piccolo at the very least is on par with a Cell Jr or slightly above, to play it safe.
Kaioshin was superior to this level but still inferior to Boo Arc Gohan(according to statements by Goku & Vegeta, he is either less powerful or less intense than his Kid self), Kaioshin is probably on par with Pre-ROSAT Goten or Trunks if anything.

Piccolo: 8(12 if he was in fact training)
Cell Jr: 10
Goten: 14
Trunks: 15
Gohan(Boo Arc): 17
Kaioshin: 14.5
Goku(Cell Games): 18
Goten and Trunks aren't stronger than Piccolo.....
Piccolo's reaction to the Kids power in the Lookout tells how superior he is to them.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by dragon boss z » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:35 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
dragonball0900 wrote: Supreme Kai can't just be taken seriously, he seems pretty scared of everything and not knowing anything. Not to mention that the base saiyans are below Frieza, and Supreme Kai stomps Frieza with just one punch. It was never stated that Piccolo was bluffing, on the contrary, there are various sources that indicate Piccolo being way below Kaioshin.
He tells Goku he has zero confidence on beating him before the Budokai, and i don't see why Babidi would recruit guys weaker than Shin since he wasn't expecting the earthlings to be a big deal. He may be stronger than Pocus, but i'm sure he's weaker than Yakon. While it's never flat out stated Piccolo was lying, it's pretty implied when Shin is revealed to be a mess. Out universe i think Toriyama wanted to hype Shin, since he's the God of Gods. I don't buy Freeza > Base Saiyans btw, but let's not get out of topic here.
Hakaishin Liquir wrote:
theherodjl wrote:Well, Kaioshin is confirmed to be stronger than Piccolo, who was last seen at a level just beneath a Cell Jr. If he continued training for the next 7 years then Piccolo at the very least is on par with a Cell Jr or slightly above, to play it safe.
Kaioshin was superior to this level but still inferior to Boo Arc Gohan(according to statements by Goku & Vegeta, he is either less powerful or less intense than his Kid self), Kaioshin is probably on par with Pre-ROSAT Goten or Trunks if anything.

Piccolo: 8(12 if he was in fact training)
Cell Jr: 10
Goten: 14
Trunks: 15
Gohan(Boo Arc): 17
Kaioshin: 14.5
Goku(Cell Games): 18
Goten and Trunks aren't stronger than Piccolo.....
Piccolo's reaction to the Kids power in the Lookout tells how superior he is to them.
If I was surprised that an 8 year old benched 200 pounds would that make them stronger than me? No, it just means they are a freak for their age.

Interestingly enough in ep 20 of Super when Bulma says her son defeated Frieza Jaco said how there was no way a child could defeat Frieza and Bulma said of course not, it was him from the future. That sounds like an implication that kid Trunks is below Frieza, which imo makes sense. He has done nothing Frieza couldn't.

LowRyder2005
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:46 am

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by LowRyder2005 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:15 am

Kaboom wrote:Maybe not exactly equal, but that's the most likely range for Kaioshin's power. We're already told that he's WAAAAAY stronger than Freeza and at least moderately stronger than Piccolo. He seems to be weaker than Super Saiyan Goku since he backed down during their stand-off, but Goku has obviously improved a lot during the 7 years since the Cell Games. So being right around the same power that Goku used to have would probably fit together with everything pretty well.
Indeed. Those who say he's in the range of the base Saiyans are probably forgetting that, in the Daizenshuu, Kaioshin is in no ambiguous terms said to have power far beyond that of "the Super Namek Piccolo". Kibito, in turn, is the one expressly reported as able to contend with the base Saiyans (base Gohan, specifically).

Since Kaioshin cowers in fear when Super Saiyan Goku has him at point-blank range, and that Goku himself shouldn't be much different than his Buu saga counterpart, the East Kaioshin almost certainly sits between the Piccolo and the mastered Super Saiyans seen during the Cell Games -- quite possibly at the exact mid-range, I'd say, enough to outmatch one and be outmatched by another.
Interestingly enough in ep 20 of Super when Bulma says her son defeated Frieza Jaco said how there was no way a child could defeat Frieza and Bulma said of course not, it was him from the future. That sounds like an implication that kid Trunks is below Frieza, which imo makes sense. He has done nothing Frieza couldn't.
Bulma is hardly a credible source for one too many reasons, but If you want to add Super to the mix you may as well quote Vegeta (who pretty much implies the same thing - at least in regards to Piccolo vs. the kids - some episodes later).

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2454
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by TobyS » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:01 am

Shin being scared of Goku as a ss1 means nothing, he knows Goku can go ss2 at the drop of a hat he's comparing himself to the burst of high end ss2 power he saw goku use on Yakon.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:36 pm

dragon boss z wrote:If I was surprised that an 8 year old benched 200 pounds would that make them stronger than me? No, it just means they are a freak for their age.

Interestingly enough in ep 20 of Super when Bulma says her son defeated Frieza Jaco said how there was no way a child could defeat Frieza and Bulma said of course not, it was him from the future. That sounds like an implication that kid Trunks is below Frieza, which imo makes sense. He has done nothing Frieza couldn't.
So the Earth's final hope after Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are gone is weaker than Freeza? Considering Bulma correcting Jaco a point is pretty ridiculous. Goten made Gohan really excert effort, flame his aura and sweat, putting him on defensive and making him fly to escape his blows. Gohan even made a comment Goten is going to surpass him soon if he doesn't train, something Freeza (Who is only established to have god-like potential in DBS) could never dream. There's also Trunks punching Buu Arc Vegeta on the face, something 18 or Semi Cell or even a Cell Jr would never do.
And Piccolo is clearly outmachted by them. He was visibly shaken by their powers, and he earlier called them "Earth's only hope" and couldn't stop them from dashing to Buu. Piccolo is a piece of trash on Buu Arc, while the kids are the new generation of Warriors.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:37 pm

TobyS wrote:Shin being scared of Goku as a ss1 means nothing, he knows Goku can go ss2 at the drop of a hat he's comparing himself to the burst of high end ss2 power he saw goku use on Yakon.
Goku had already charged his blast, though. And Gohan pulling the Z Sword, something Shin and probably any Supreme Kai could do, cripples the chance of Shin > Buu Arc SSJs.
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:44 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:If I was surprised that an 8 year old benched 200 pounds would that make them stronger than me? No, it just means they are a freak for their age.

Interestingly enough in ep 20 of Super when Bulma says her son defeated Frieza Jaco said how there was no way a child could defeat Frieza and Bulma said of course not, it was him from the future. That sounds like an implication that kid Trunks is below Frieza, which imo makes sense. He has done nothing Frieza couldn't.
So the Earth's final hope after Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are gone is weaker than Freeza? Considering Bulma correcting Jaco a point is pretty ridiculous. Goten made Gohan really excert effort, flame his aura and sweat, putting him on defensive and making him fly to escape his blows. Gohan even made a comment Goten is going to surpass him soon if he doesn't train, something Freeza (Who is only established to have god-like potential in DBS) could never dream. There's also Trunks punching Buu Arc Vegeta on the face, something 18 or Semi Cell or even a Cell Jr would never do.
And Piccolo is clearly outmachted by them. He was visibly shaken by their powers, and he earlier called them "Earth's only hope" and couldn't stop them from dashing to Buu. Piccolo is a piece of trash on Buu Arc, while the kids are the new generation of Warriors.
They were their last hope because of fusion. They never even had close to a chance of beating Buu without it.

And yes Trunks punched Vegeta but Vegeta was almost definitely holding back and not expecting Trunks to be that good. Krillin forced current Goku to go ssj, that makes far less sense than Trunks land a hit on Begeta that did no damage.

User avatar
GreatSaiyaman123
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:59 am
Location: Somewhere beyond the sea

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:59 pm

dragon boss z wrote:They were their last hope because of fusion. They never even had close to a chance of beating Buu without it.

And yes Trunks punched Vegeta but Vegeta was almost definitely holding back and not expecting Trunks to be that good. Krillin forced current Goku to go ssj, that makes far less sense than Trunks land a hit on Begeta that did no damage.
Fusion wasn't know at moment. Piccolo says it right after Buu is revealed to be alive, and Goku only reveals about fusion when everybody is at the Lookout.

When it's implied Vegeta was holding back? Vegeta wanted to see how strong he is. What Goku vs Kuririn has to do with this? The kids are supposed to be the new generation of strong warriors, and the Arc heavily implies they should be not too far from the adults, not weaker than weaklings like Piccolo.

Btw, shouldn't we be talking about Shin instead of the kids? :wtf:
Battle Powers List (Manga)

Guardian of the city, I am the one and only...Great Saiyaman!

User avatar
dragon boss z
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by dragon boss z » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:31 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fusion wasn't know at moment. Piccolo says it right after Buu is revealed to be alive, and Goku only reveals about fusion when everybody is at the Lookout.
Well they were the ones with the most potential. If they both went into the chamber for a year and both became ssj2 they would of had a small chance. Piccolo and the others were already near their limit.
When it's implied Vegeta was holding back? Vegeta wanted to see how strong he is.
Holding back would help him gauge how strong he is. Goku holds back every time he tests someone.
What Goku vs Kuririn has to do with this?
Krillin is weaker than Namek Friez and Goku is stronger than Buu saga Vegeta, yet Krillin put up a better fight against Goku than Trunks did against Vegeta.
The kids are supposed to be the new generation of strong warriors, and the Arc heavily implies they should be not too far from the adults, not weaker than weaklings like Piccolo.
Yet they had no major fights, Piccolo was the dominant part of Super Buu after the diffusion, and they were thrown out in Super while Piccolo wasn't. In the RoF arc after diffusion they hid behind a rock while Roshi, Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and nerded Gohan were all out there ready to fight. They also had trouble with a big snake in ep 1 of Super. They aren't real portrayed as the strong characters you think they are.
Btw, shouldn't we be talking about Shin instead of the kids? :wtf:
Shin gets stomped by Cell games Goku
/thread

User avatar
ssbgoku
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:46 pm

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by ssbgoku » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:43 pm

Dbz Shin/East Kaioshin of our Universe 7 beats cell arc ssj goku but looses slightly to buu arc ssj goku.
I base it on Picoolo being happy and ready to take part in tournament (buu arc) which suggest he had to be close to full power ssj kid gohan cell arc and Shin was stated and shown to be supperior unless we are taking his antics with majin mark and fear in consideration but he was just paranoic in light of future events we knew happened.
also based on buu arc ss2 goku and vegeta being supperior to ssj2 kid gohan, who was still used as benchmark, so unless kid gohan was using rage over ssj2 transfarmation against cell then buu arc ssj goku/vegeta is above cell arc ssj kid gohan but below full power perfect cell.

anyway with dragon ball super and it's many retconns( Dabura being established as small threat to even ssj2), proves that Shin was around buu arc ssj goku back then, slightly above or below, also keep in mind Shin was between two enraged super sayians who could be stronger with rage and having number advantage. Besides that it would be against his plan to stop buu as damage would be delivered and in worst case he would die.

Dabura > DBS Shin/Supreme Kai >= Buu arc ssj goku/vegeta

User avatar
Lionel
I Live Here
Posts: 2393
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Is Eastern Supreme Kai equal to Full Power Super Saiyan Goku from the Cell Games?

Post by Lionel » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:45 pm

Shin doesn't need to have a superior power level for him to be capable of defeating Goku from the Cell Games. Remember his psychic abilities? If written pragmatically, he could do to Goku using a kiai what Vegeta accomplished against Cui. Cell might even be defeatable with the same kiai.

Post Reply