Hakai and Superman

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by rereboy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:55 pm

DragonBallLove wrote: you can say no version Superman have been absolutely and clearly invulnerable.
You do realize that's what I said, right...?

I have no idea why you stated stuff like that I shouldn't use hyperboles when I don't even these stuff if, after all, you agree with me.
DragonBallLove wrote: The Prescense/God has been killed by Lucifer in its latest series and godhood has been splitted between many beigns.
Omnipotence is ofter downplayed in DC... Man, even the recent developments indicating that Manhattan could be over any other DC character as of yet.
He was never confirmed killed and he is right back as he was now. Also, the discussion was about Superman, not Lucifer who is a being close to the Presence in mythology and power. You may be right about it being downplayed but that's shifting the conversation into whether he is literally omnipotent instead of focusing on whether any version of Superman existed that he couldn't scratch (which you basically agreed by now saying that there's no invulnerable Superman).

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by DragonBallLove » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:08 pm

rereboy wrote:
DragonBallLove wrote: you can say no version Superman have been absolutely and clearly invulnerable.
You do realize that's what I said, right?
DragonBallLove wrote: The Prescense/God has been killed by Lucifer in its latest series and godhood has been splitted between many beigns.
Omnipotence is ofter downplayed in DC... Man, even the recent developments indicating that Manhattan could be over any other DC character as of yet.
He was never confirmed killed and he is right back as he was now. Also, the discussion was about Superman, not Lucifer who is a being close to the Presence in mythology and power. You may be right about it being downplayed but that's shifting the conversation into whether he is literally omnipotent instead of focusing on whether any version of Superman existed that he couldn't scratch (which you basically agreed by now saying that there's no invulnerable Superman).
Yes and yes, I'm realizing I was adscribing the item's power to the character, and agreeing in the end with you, with some reticences (Prime). What I was trying to argue is that a) omnipotence means shit in DC and b) Sloppy writing results in many power fluxes. Superman is taken to be nearly undefeatable sometimes (and thus could be written to survive a Hakai very easily), but sometimes they write him as powerful but vulnerable. Heck, even Batman himself have been shown on the par with other JL members when melee fighting. So, no clear answer for this one.

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:01 pm

I would argue that the Omega Force, written to its full potential, is far more potent than even Zeno's abilities. Not even the Thought Robot Superman should be able to completely resist it. The problem is that Darkseid is a limited conduit through which it is channeled. Even so, he has used it to harm and defeat beings with multiversal power. On the other hand, many times his use of it is rather weak and can be defended against by characters like Wonder Woman, Firestorm, etc.

But the full, unfettered Omega Force, deriving from the Source itself (which is a power that is multiple levels of infinity beyond the infinite multiverse) would be effectively unstoppable by nearly anything in the DC Universe. IIRC even the Spectre when empowered by the Presence was in awe of the Source. Some people say the Source and the Presence are one and the same.

But comparing Darkseid to the Source is like comparing a candle to the Big Bang.
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Lord Frieza » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:23 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:I would argue that the Omega Force, written to its full potential, is far more potent than even Zeno's abilities. Not even the Thought Robot Superman should be able to completely resist it. The problem is that Darkseid is a limited conduit through which it is channeled. Even so, he has used it to harm and defeat beings with multiversal power. On the other hand, many times his use of it is rather weak and can be defended against by characters like Wonder Woman, Firestorm, etc.

But the full, unfettered Omega Force, deriving from the Source itself (which is a power that is multiple levels of infinity beyond the infinite multiverse) would be effectively unstoppable by nearly anything in the DC Universe. IIRC even the Spectre when empowered by the Presence was in awe of the Source. Some people say the Source and the Presence are one and the same.

But comparing Darkseid to the Source is like comparing a candle to the Big Bang.
As far as I can tell his greatest raw power feat was porviding 1/5 of the energy needed to destroy a universe. Zeno-Oh can destroy a universe on his own with little effert on his part.

Edit: As Omni King he rules over Creation and Destruction putting him above an Omega/Entropy Deity like Darkseid. With Tori-bot being equal to The Presence or the Source.

Edit 2: Infact Tori-Bot surpasses The Presenceand the Source as he is the avatar of the original DB manga creatore in the real world while they is still just a fictional character.

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Smilodon » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:34 pm

Vados would destroy Superman with a single eye blink...
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:41 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:I would argue that the Omega Force, written to its full potential, is far more potent than even Zeno's abilities. Not even the Thought Robot Superman should be able to completely resist it. The problem is that Darkseid is a limited conduit through which it is channeled. Even so, he has used it to harm and defeat beings with multiversal power. On the other hand, many times his use of it is rather weak and can be defended against by characters like Wonder Woman, Firestorm, etc.

But the full, unfettered Omega Force, deriving from the Source itself (which is a power that is multiple levels of infinity beyond the infinite multiverse) would be effectively unstoppable by nearly anything in the DC Universe. IIRC even the Spectre when empowered by the Presence was in awe of the Source. Some people say the Source and the Presence are one and the same.

But comparing Darkseid to the Source is like comparing a candle to the Big Bang.
As far as I can tell his greatest raw power feat was porviding 1/5 of the energy needed to destroy a universe. Zeno-Oh can destroy a universe on his own with little effert on his part.

Edit: As Omni King he rules over Creation and Destruction putting him above an Omega/Entropy Deity like Darkseid. With Tori-bot being equal to The Presence or the Source.

Edit 2: Infact Tori-Bot surpasses The Presenceand the Source as he is the avatar of the original DB manga creatore in the real world while they is still just a fictional character.
I'm not talking about Darkseid, I'm talking about the Source. The Anti-Monitor was able to absorb infinite universes but was still vulnerable to the much weaker Omega Effect channeled through Darkseid. The Fourth World is a dimension where universes like ours look like marbles in comparison, and the Source is beyond the Fourth World to an extent where they can't even comprehend it. Even Darkseid was threatening to collapse the multiverse in Final Crisis but he's just a flea compared to the Source.

The Spectre was able to battle the Anti-Monitor who had the power of infinite universes, and to repair the damage caused to an infinite multiverse in one of the later Crises, but the Spectre was less than an ant next to the Source.
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:47 am

What a lot of people don't realize when comparing Goku and Superman is that they occupy completely different tiers in respect to their own settings. Goku's tier is much higher.

There are about maybe two dozen people in the DB multiverse who are stronger than Goku right now.

There are literally infinite amounts of people in the DC setting who are stronger than Superman.

Compared to the truly powerful beings in DC, Superman is less than a bacterium.

Lots of people try to point out incidences when he can resist/compete/fight against much stronger beings, but those either involve special circumstances or just plain bad writing. Someone like the Spectre can swat Superman like a fly without even trying. And there are many people above him.

Darkseid at his full potential/true form should also squash Superman. The only reason he usually doesn't is because they make him use weaker avatars, or have his power limited in some way, or give Superman some kind of plot device to win (or just survive).
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:25 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:snip
I'll agree with you there, Darkseid and also Doomsday are two Superman foes who often get badly down played. In is original incarnastion Darkseid is nigh unstoppable and should beat Superman with little effert. But how he should be written and how DC comic's chooses to use him are to different things. Avarage Darkseid while powerful is still only about even with Superman or a bit strongre in most comics. Again I agree its a real shame because Darkseid is without a dought one of the single greatest villains ever created yet very few have the tallent and insight to really do him justice. Darkseid makes characters like Luthor and the Joker look like paper cut outs.

While not as great a character in terms of personality and newance, Doomsday likewise gets badly down played a lot although in his case he was made to powerful then used to much when really he, like Darkseid, should not be pulled out of the toy box now and again.

I will stand by my statement about Zeno-Oh as he can destroy his entire mutliverse if he wanted to by just lifting his hand. He's not a threat to the Multiverse, that dose not due him justice, he is god above all who can destroy it all in a whim if he chose to. Thats a lot more powerful then even a full power Darkseid.

I also stand by my Tori-Bot statment as he the avatar of Akira Toriyama. You cannot get a more powerful being in fiction.

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:48 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:snip
I'll agree with you there, Darkseid and also Doomsday are two Superman foes who often get badly down played. In is original incarnastion Darkseid is nigh unstoppable and should beat Superman with little effert. But how he should be written and how DC comic's chooses to use him are to different things. Avarage Darkseid while powerful is still only about even with Superman or a bit strongre in most comics. Again I agree its a real shame because Darkseid is without a dought one of the single greatest villains ever created yet very few have the tallent and insight to really do him justice. Darkseid makes characters like Luthor and the Joker look like paper cut outs.

While not as great a character in terms of personality and newance, Doomsday likewise gets badly down played a lot although in his case he was made to powerful then used to much when really he, like Darkseid, should not be pulled out of the toy box now and again.

I will stand by my statement about Zeno-Oh as he can destroy his entire mutliverse if he wanted to by just lifting his hand. He's not a threat to the Multiverse, that dose not due him justice, he is god above all who can destroy it all in a whim if he chose to. Thats a lot more powerful then even a full power Darkseid.

I also stand by my Tori-Bot statment as he the avatar of Akira Toriyama. You cannot get a more powerful being in fiction.
Eh, Kirby's original conception of the New Gods was very neat, I agree, but as for characters like Lex and the Joker, they've been around longer and had so many different writers that you can't even really judge them as a whole. The interpretations of the characters by some authors are downright brilliant, and others are downright awful. The same is true for a lot of comic book characters that have been around for such a long time. Like if someone were to say that they like Batman as a character, that doesn't actually say much - do they mean the gritty, Golden Age Batman who was more than willing to use guns and kill? The campy, goofy Silver Age Batman? The even goofier Adam West Batman? The darker and edgier 80s/Dark Knight Returns Batman? The serious yet amusing animated Batman? The gruff, super-serious Christian Bale Batman? Any one of the more modern comic interpretations? They're all so different.

Honestly I find Doomsday to be one of those characters who is neat in the first story he appears in, but when they keep reusing him his impact and effectiveness as a villain is diminished. I mean he's basically just a brute who mindlessly beats people up - unlike, say, the Hulk, there's no alternate personality or struggle with self-identity to keep the reader interested. They added the adaptation power which was something, but that's been done before and better. The time they tried to make him intelligent just failed... the intelligent JLU incarnation was kind of neat though I'll admit. Basically in terms of character depth and story role, Doomsday is Broly. In his first appearance - a great, if shallow, villain. After that? Overstays his welcome.

Going back to the power assessments, a lot of my statements are mostly based on the fact that the DC multiverse is just so much bigger. Destroying 12 universes at once is neat, but how does that compare to someone who can destroy infinite universes at once? And yet even those characters are nothing compared to the higher ones on the food chain. I suppose you could make the argument that Zeno is capable of destroy an arbitrary amount of universes simultaneously (although I doubt it based on the scene where he wiped out the future multiverse and Zamasu - he used both hands and took over a minute to do it, compared to when they wiped out universes 9 and 10 both easily with a simple one-handed gesture... to me that says he had to put quite a bit more effort into destroying all 12 at once). But either way, Darkseid at the level he is typically portrayed at is not as powerful as Zeno.

As for author avatars and fourth wall stuff, that's a pretty sticky situation to get into when arguing power levels. Personally I tend to not take such things all that seriously (unless the work clearly wants you to take it seriously - for example Grant Morrison's Animal Man, which was brilliant, but bizarre). In terms of gags and comedy you have authors and even publishing companies inserting themselves into their works all the time, but how they're actually portrayed is often not in a serious manner. In some stories you even have incidents where the characters escape from their (meta)fictional world and kill their own authors (like in Stephen King's Dark Tower series... he wrote himself in as an author who can change reality by writing it, yet every author including himself is apparently just a tool for the higher gods of the setting who are manipulating them. It's weird).
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Lord Frieza » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:50 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:snip
I'll agree with you there, Darkseid and also Doomsday are two Superman foes who often get badly down played. In is original incarnastion Darkseid is nigh unstoppable and should beat Superman with little effert. But how he should be written and how DC comic's chooses to use him are to different things. Avarage Darkseid while powerful is still only about even with Superman or a bit strongre in most comics. Again I agree its a real shame because Darkseid is without a dought one of the single greatest villains ever created yet very few have the tallent and insight to really do him justice. Darkseid makes characters like Luthor and the Joker look like paper cut outs.

While not as great a character in terms of personality and newance, Doomsday likewise gets badly down played a lot although in his case he was made to powerful then used to much when really he, like Darkseid, should not be pulled out of the toy box now and again.

I will stand by my statement about Zeno-Oh as he can destroy his entire mutliverse if he wanted to by just lifting his hand. He's not a threat to the Multiverse, that dose not due him justice, he is god above all who can destroy it all in a whim if he chose to. Thats a lot more powerful then even a full power Darkseid.

I also stand by my Tori-Bot statment as he the avatar of Akira Toriyama. You cannot get a more powerful being in fiction.

Eh, Kirby's original conception of the New Gods was very neat, I agree, but as for characters like Lex and the Joker, they've been around longer and had so many different writers that you can't even really judge them as a whole. The interpretations of the characters by some authors are downright brilliant, and others are downright awful. The same is true for a lot of comic book characters that have been around for such a long time. Like if someone were to say that they like Batman as a character, that doesn't actually say much - do they mean the gritty, Golden Age Batman who was more than willing to use guns and kill? The campy, goofy Silver Age Batman? The even goofier Adam West Batman? The darker and edgier 80s/Dark Knight Returns Batman? The serious yet amusing animated Batman? The gruff, super-serious Christian Bale Batman? Any one of the more modern comic interpretations? They're all so different.


Honestly I find Doomsday to be one of those characters who is neat in the first story he appears in, but when they keep reusing him his impact and effectiveness as a villain is diminished. I mean he's basically just a brute who mindlessly beats people up - unlike, say, the Hulk, there's no alternate personality or struggle with self-identity to keep the reader interested. They added the adaptation power which was something, but that's been done before and better. The time they tried to make him intelligent just failed... the intelligent JLU incarnation was kind of neat though I'll admit. Basically in terms of character depth and story role, Doomsday is Broly. In his first appearance - a great, if shallow, villain. After that? Overstays his welcome.

Going back to the power assessments, a lot of my statements are mostly based on the fact that the DC multiverse is just so much bigger. Destroying 12 universes at once is neat, but how does that compare to someone who can destroy infinite universes at once? And yet even those characters are nothing compared to the higher ones on the food chain. I suppose you could make the argument that Zeno is capable of destroy an arbitrary amount of universes simultaneously (although I doubt it based on the scene where he wiped out the future multiverse and Zamasu - he used both hands and took over a minute to do it, compared to when they wiped out universes 9 and 10 both easily with a simple one-handed gesture... to me that says he had to put quite a bit more effort into destroying all 12 at once). But either way, Darkseid at the level he is typically portrayed at is not as powerful as Zeno.

As for author avatars and fourth wall stuff, that's a pretty sticky situation to get into when arguing power levels. Personally I tend to not take such things all that seriously (unless the work clearly wants you to take it seriously - for example Grant Morrison's Animal Man, which was brilliant, but bizarre). In terms of gags and comedy you have authors and even publishing companies inserting themselves into their works all the time, but how they're actually portrayed is often not in a serious manner. In some stories you even have incidents where the characters escape from their (meta)fictional world and kill their own authors (like in Stephen King's Dark Tower series... he wrote himself in as an author who can change reality by writing it, yet every author including himself is apparently just a tool for the higher gods of the setting who are manipulating them. It's weird).


I'll give you that but I say that while different people can really bring characters to life, Darkseid at his best tends to over shadow the petty Lex. The Joker is great in his own way but he's tied to Batman, what I mean is the Joker's whole character is tied to Batman. Darkseid can stand on his own and be pretty awesome, hell he's even great in crossover comics like Superman vs Aliens 2 (which his how I first met the character).

Here I could not agree more, Doomsday was at his beast in Death of Superman and Hunter/Prey. Since then, while still cool, he's lost a LOT of his punch and keeps getting depowered. I really struggle to read a lot of his stories past that point.

You and me are on the same page just comeing at at it at the other end. Zen-Oh is a 12, possible 18, universe level buster but there are beings in DC and other fiction that surpass that power. Likewise Typical Darkseid is the one I refer to but I agree that he can and has been more powerful.

I agree is sticky but what it boils down to is the rules the aurthur places on themselves when doing so. Also glad to see you thought of most of the examples I did when thinking about the subject. In Toriyama's case he put himself as the Most powerful deity in his universe. Meaning that everything is DB that has ever existed is under his rule reguardless of cannon debates. He bends to no higher power there. Other aurthers like King make themselves a key part of the meta but create higher beings above them yet such being s would not exist without them also. What I'm getting at is that reguardless of how they spin it Aurthurs are masters the deity of their own works and any limitations they have are put on them by themsleves. Funny thing taking about gags I just had the mental image of Tori-Bot messing with the DB caste lot like Mr. Myxlplyx in DC.

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by apex_pretador » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:34 am

DragonBallLove wrote:
rereboy wrote:Furthermore, no incarnation of Superman, no matter how tough and powerful it was, was supposed to be so indestructible that nothing in the multiverse could scratch him.
You haven't heard of the Sword of Superman, have you? Or the Thought Mecha from Morrison's Final Crisis Superman Beyond? Or whats infered from Morrison's (again) DC
One Million's Superman Prime?
Man, you can't make hyperboles that big if you don't know this things, they aren't even obscure for DC fans...
Sword of superman is not "superman" but a sword
Thought robot was destroyed by Mandrakk
SMPOM never faced any powerful entity ever, so him not getting hurt is obvious. Even regular Superman could've remained undamaged in his place.
malicecrossrevolver wrote: Scientifically, to destroy a solar system takes an explosion the size of a supernova. Which Superman has tanked so there's that. Not to mention he can actually survive in the actual star core.
Yes, because he gets power from sun/star.

And a supernova almost killed him when he was like millions if not billiions of km away, despite him being powered by solar radiation.
That's not tanked.
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Saiyan007 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:26 am

malicecrossrevolver wrote:I have never seen a cannon attack that blows up anything larger than a planet.
okay... we have statements and feats that put fodder like SSJG Goku on a universal level


However, we all know, as fans, that Vegeta was killed by a planet busting attack during the Golden Frieza arc.



You mean the lack of air is what killed him since Beerus himself said that Freeza blowing up the planet is smart because he can survive in space.
That's roughly what it takes to kill a super saiyan blue i guess. Frieza wasn't even in his golden form.
You would be wrong of course.

I understand, people are obsessed with Superman because how similar he is to Goku. I'm just saying that when people argue about the two's abilities and strengths,Superman would be able to survive the properties of the Hakai since it's the same thing as the omega sanction.
I can't remember the last time Darkseid Omega's Beams did something other than hurt someone physically

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:45 am

The explosion of Planet Namek was implied to not be enough to kill Super Saiyan Goku. Never mind Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

He just suffocated to death.

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by theherodjl » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:02 am

Has this thread turned into another discussion regarding feats in DB in comparison to Superman and vice versa?
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:22 pm

Bullza wrote:He just suffocated to death.
Something Supes would lolnope. Puny saiyans can't even survive in space.
malicecrossrevolver wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:Why is majority of Dragon-Ball fanbase so obsessed with Superman? Also, as Polyphase Avalone said, this is not an in-universe discussion.

Anyways, on topic, Superman is not "indestructible". He can be severely hurt by planet busting explosions and attacks. A solar-system busting attack would cripple or kill him, and someone like Beerus can easily blow him to bits with a breath when serious enough. And if manga hakai could work on someone who actually has indestructibility and regeneration as power, and is far more powerful than Superman, then it IS going to work on Superman, period. Obviously, there is plot which dictates everything, but I'm just being as objective as I can without taking plot into account.
Well first of all, a moderator told me to put this thread here. It's not that big a deal really.
Dragon ball related. I have never seen a cannon attack that blows up anything larger than a planet. I'm not sure where you're getting this solar-system busting attack idea from;
However, we all know, as fans, that Vegeta was killed by a planet busting attack during the Golden Frieza arc. That's roughly what it takes to kill a super saiyan blue i guess. Frieza wasn't even in his golden form.

Scientifically, to destroy a solar system takes an explosion the size of a supernova. Which Superman has tanked so there's that. Not to mention he can actually survive in the actual star core.

I understand, people are obsessed with Superman because how similar he is to Goku. I'm just saying that when people argue about the two's abilities and strengths,Superman would be able to survive the properties of the Hakai since it's the same thing as the omega sanction.

I know what feat you are referring to and he never tanked it. He was KTFO

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:03 pm

Goku wouldn't even need Hakai he could just rip Supes in half with ease.

As for Hakai if it was going to kill fused Zamasu who's both immortal and stronger than Superman it would kill Supes.

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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:23 pm

Saiyan007 wrote:
I can't remember the last time Darkseid Omega's Beams did something other than hurt someone physically
They sent Batman back in time at the end of Final Crisis. I haven't been keeping up with DC in years, so no idea if they've been used for anything else since then. I seem to recall that he uses them to teleport as well?
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:16 pm

Lord Frieza wrote:I'll give you that but I say that while different people can really bring characters to life, Darkseid at his best tends to over shadow the petty Lex. The Joker is great in his own way but he's tied to Batman, what I mean is the Joker's whole character is tied to Batman. Darkseid can stand on his own and be pretty awesome, hell he's even great in crossover comics like Superman vs Aliens 2 (which his how I first met the character).
I guess I can see where you're coming from. Though to be honest I prefer Marvel's Thanos and Galactus.
I agree is sticky but what it boils down to is the rules the aurthur places on themselves when doing so. Also glad to see you thought of most of the examples I did when thinking about the subject. In Toriyama's case he put himself as the Most powerful deity in his universe. Meaning that everything is DB that has ever existed is under his rule reguardless of cannon debates. He bends to no higher power there.
Well, not quite. His work has been licensed to a lot of people and corporations that add stuff he never wrote or change it. In fact this was parodied in the Dragonball Multiverse fan comic when Tori-bot said he could win the fight by just writing himself winning, but then he gave up when he realized he was up against Dr. Raichi, a character he didn't create.
okay... we have statements and feats that put fodder like SSJG Goku on a universal level
He said a "cannon" attack. If it's not done with a cannon, it doesn't count! :mrgreen:
I can't remember the last time Darkseid Omega's Beams did something other than hurt someone physically
They swapped the planets Daxam and Apokolips across universes (something we know Beerus can't do since he and Champa were competing for a wish to do that), reduced the Cyborg Superman to his data essence and reconstructed him, sent Batman's soul into a future timeline while killing his physical body, hurt the Spectre who has no physical body, transport someone to another reality, another time, or just erase them from existence (as stated by Sleez), even erase them retroactively (so they never existed in the first place), alter the past of a target's timeline (like changing it so they never got any powers), and a bunch of other stuff I can't even remember. Honestly it's bullshit of the highest order that Superman is able to resist them in any storyline (and in a lot of stories he's not).
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uncutpokemon
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by uncutpokemon » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:13 pm

Look if you guys are trying to figure out a way for a Z fighter to beat Superman, just pick Majin Buu. His attacks are all magic, so Superman is screwed.

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dario03
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Re: Hakai and Superman

Post by dario03 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:48 pm

uncutpokemon wrote:Look if you guys are trying to figure out a way for a Z fighter to beat Superman, just pick Majin Buu. His attacks are all magic, so Superman is screwed.
Depending on the writer that would only work if he landed a magic attack, regular attacks by magic powered beings don't always work. Captain Marvel/Shaazam has beat Superman since he is about as powerful as Superman and powered by magic but even with that I'm pretty sure Superman has a winning record against him.

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