SSJ Multiplier Can Increase

[Kaboom]

Why the heck would Beerus' line comparing Goku to Freeza even be there if it's not meant to be true?

There's been a dozen different opportunities, in any of the three separate versions of the story now, to redact or "explain" the line and prove Beerus wrong if he was meant to be, but none of those opportunities were ever taken. It is what it is, and it means what it means. It's been three years since this little revelation was first made to us in the Battle of Gods movie. So it'd be really swell if the strength-focused side of the fandom could stop trying to undermine the line in weaselly ways and at least let accept it as a "take it or leave it" thing.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, it's possible. There is the whole theory about any time a form reachs a limit another one is unlocked:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P11.1-5
Kuririn: “Th-that’s impossible…! Wh-why can he become a Super Saiyan…?! Don’t you have to have a tranquil heart to become one…!?”
Vegeta: “I was tranquil…Tranquil and pure…Pure evil, that is…I wished to get strong just by training earnestly…And so I went through stupendous training over and over again…Eventually, I realized my limits…Through my anger towards myself, I suddenly awakened…into a Super Saiyan!”

Vegeta hits the Base form limits, unlocking SSjin's form. I remember Goku saying somewhere to Gohan they maxed out in the Rosat, but i can't find the quote.
Personally i don't belive in this as statements about limits are aways a grain of salt, and Buu Arc heavily implies Base Saiyans pretty much Gods. But if you wanna roll with it...

Beerus literally says that base Goku as he saw him in person shouldn't be strong enough to beat Freeza, and Kaio agrees with him.

Kaio only agreed of Goku being able to transform.

Why the heck would Beerus' line comparing Goku to Freeza even be there if it's not meant to be true?

There's been a dozen different opportunities, in any of the three separate versions of the story now, to redact or "explain" the line and prove Beerus wrong if he was meant to be, but none of those opportunities were ever taken. It is what it is, and it means what it means. It's been three years since this little revelation was first made to us in the Battle of Gods movie. So it'd be really swell if the strength-focused side of the fandom could stop trying to undermine the line in weaselly ways and at least let accept it as a "take it or leave it" thing.

Actually, it's never stated in the manga. And tbh i aways thought Beerus was taunting Goku to go SSjin. Like, he has seem Goku beating the tar out of Freeza, and then finds the man with a drastically different look. He even asks about the transformation:

Minute: 6
Context: After Beerus has inspected Goku (in his regular, non-Super Saiyan state), and mentioned Goku having defeated Freeza
Beerus: “You don’t look like you’d possibly be able to beat him as you are now, but you’re one of those transforming Saiyans, right? You can turn into that Super Saiyan thing.”

This may not mean much, but Beerus' quote is kinda of less direct than in the movie (From "I don't think you can beat him" to "I don't think you could possibly beat him"), this seemed like they wanted to go back without erasing the quote IMO. It's pretty odd if Toriyama wrote the manga with Freeza > Base Saiyans in mind but only reveals it on a work 20 years after the series end, in a movie that wasn't even on his agenda.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kaio only agreed of Goku being able to transform.

No, Kaio agreed to everything Beerus said & called him very knowledgable for that. If you feel like this contradicts the original manga or you personal opinions about the base Saiyans' power, that's another story. But if Beerus was wrong when saying that, it would have been said. And it wasn't, so everone should stop twisting the conversation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Kaio only agreed of Goku being able to transform.

No, Kaio agreed to everything Beerus said & called him very knowledgable for that. If you feel like this contradicts the original manga or you personal opinions about the base Saiyans' power, that's another story. But if Beerus was wrong when saying that, it would have been said. And it wasn't, so everone should stop twisting the conversation.

Not to mention that the base Saiyans being below Freeza at this point in the series' story would go well with the SS multiplication being as high as 50 times, and also helps to curb the ludicrous power-scaling during the Cell Games and Buu Saga. It means that Cell isn't hundreds of times stronger than Freeza, and Majin Buu isn't thousands upon thousands of times stronger.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kaio only agreed of Goku being able to transform.

No, Kaio agreed to everything Beerus said & called him very knowledgable for that. If you feel like this contradicts the original manga or you personal opinions about the base Saiyans' power, that's another story. But if Beerus was wrong when saying that, it would have been said. And it wasn't, so everone should stop twisting the conversation.

Not to mention that the base Saiyans being below Freeza at this point in the series' story would go well with the SS multiplication being as high as 50 times, and also helps to curb the ludicrous power-scaling during the Cell Games and Buu Saga. It means that Cell isn't hundreds of times stronger than Freeza, and Majin Buu isn't thousands upon thousands of times stronger.

There are a few implications in the Boo arc that the base Saiyans may be stronger than Piccolo, though personally I don't believe this is the case, but each to his own opinions. But let's not talk crazy, BoG clearly portrayed base Goku as weaker than Freeza. If you want to twist the meaning of the scene in your head-canon to fix the supposed plot-hole, that's another story. But saying that the scene was intended not to portray base Goku as weaker than Freeza is just wrong, no matter how you look at it.

[mamoru]

Observing what? A perfectly calm and relaxed Goku? After observing someone whose power he had never seen at full power before? He said "the way you are now" because he was in base form in that moment, not in Super Saiyan. Then he goes on to say that he learned that he can transform and that's why Goku could beat Freeza... Which is true, base Goku couldn't beat Freeza, that feat was only possible after transforming. He's referring to Freeza saga Goku all along.

Beerus says that Goku shouldn't be able to defeat Freeza in base right now, but he should be able to transform into a Super Saiyan. Kaio's answer to that was that Beerus was correct & very well informed. If what Beerus said was incorrect, Kaio would have said "you are correct about the Super Saiyan transformation, but Goku can get much stronger than that without transforming" or something like that. He wouldn't say that Beerus was correct & very well informed.

But even after going SSJ, Beerus still wasn't sure that Goku was able to defeat Frieza, stating that Goku BARELY defeated Frieza. This was really obvious that Goku was suppressing himself unless you want to say SSJ Goku can't beat Frieza now? That's crazy.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But even after going SSJ, Beerus still wasn't sure that Goku was able to defeat Frieza, stating that Goku BARELY defeated Frieza. This was really obvious that Goku was suppressing himself unless you want to say SSJ Goku can't beat Frieza now? That's crazy.

This was anime-only. No such thing happened in the movie.

[mamoru]

But even after going SSJ, Beerus still wasn't sure that Goku was able to defeat Frieza, stating that Goku BARELY defeated Frieza. This was really obvious that Goku was suppressing himself unless you want to say SSJ Goku can't beat Frieza now? That's crazy.

This was anime-only. No such thing happened in the movie.

Since we're talking about Dragon Ball Super, Battle of Gods ISNT Dragon Ball Super, since it's a Dragon Ball Z Movie. Both movies are not canon to Dragon Ball Super and are only canon to Dragon Ball Z.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But even after going SSJ, Beerus still wasn't sure that Goku was able to defeat Frieza, stating that Goku BARELY defeated Frieza. This was really obvious that Goku was suppressing himself unless you want to say SSJ Goku can't beat Frieza now? That's crazy.

This was anime-only. No such thing happened in the movie.

Since we're talking about Dragon Ball Super, Battle of Gods ISNT Dragon Ball Super, since it's a Dragon Ball Z Movie. Both movies are not canon to Dragon Ball Super and are only canon to Dragon Ball Z.

Who said we are talking only about Super? The movie is the source material, so this is where the intention of the line can be found. and the intention was that base Goku was portrayed as weaker than Freeza.

[Okora]

I'm 100% sure they can be increased and he wasn't just talking about super saiyan blue. But unfortunately people are so stuck on having static multiplier for so long that they will keep saying other wise. Super saiyan multiplier can be increased and I think you should ignore people who say otherwise.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm 100% sure they can be increased and he wasn't just talking about super saiyan blue. But unfortunately people are so stuck on having static multiplier for so long that they will keep saying other wise. Super saiyan multiplier can be increased and I think you should ignore people who say otherwise.

How about providing some evidence for your claims instead of treating your opinions as hard facts and acting as if people are dumb for not following your ideas?

[Okora]

I'm 100% sure they can be increased and he wasn't just talking about super saiyan blue. But unfortunately people are so stuck on having static multiplier for so long that they will keep saying other wise. Super saiyan multiplier can be increased and I think you should ignore people who say otherwise.

How about providing some evidence for your claims instead of treating your opinions as hard facts and acting as if people are dumb for not following your ideas?

I'm not arguing nor am I saying one is dumb. I've seen you comment on very similar threads in the past. It doesn't matter what he meant you are one of the people I was talking about and you'd proabably to stuborn to admit it if you were told wrong so you work everything around to make it fit what you believed before. Doesn't matter if Toriyama comes out with a new interview strictly saying super saiyan and no other form can be stronger than two and 3 by mastering it and you still try to say he's just forgetful. People need to stop looking at super saiyan like it's a multiplier in the first place. Also I apologize if I offended you either way but this is topic is debated about to death and I'm tired of it. Also can I ask you why you are so set on the belief that mastered super saiyan is just as strong as normal super saiyan and that normal super saiyan can't get stronger? I don't believe it was actually ever stated to be the case where you think it was besides maybe the dizenshuu which has a lot of contradictions as it is.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'm 100% sure they can be increased and he wasn't just talking about super saiyan blue. But unfortunately people are so stuck on having static multiplier for so long that they will keep saying other wise. Super saiyan multiplier can be increased and I think you should ignore people who say otherwise.

How about providing some evidence for your claims instead of treating your opinions as hard facts and acting as if people are dumb for not following your ideas?

I'm not arguing nor am I saying one is dumb. I've seen you comment on very similar threads in the past. It doesn't matter what he meant you are one of the people I was talking about and you'd proabably to stuborn to admit it if you were told wrong so you work everything around to make it fit what you believed before. Doesn't matter if Toriyama comes out with a new interview strictly saying super saiyan and no other form can be stronger than two and 3 by mastering it and you still try to say he's just forgetful. People need to stop looking at super saiyan like it's a multiplier in the first place. Also I apologize if I offended you either way but this is topic is debated about to death and I'm tired of it. Also can I ask you why you are so set on the belief that mastered super saiyan is just as strong as normal super saiyan and that normal super saiyan can't get stronger? I don't believe it was actually ever stated to be the case where you think it was besides maybe the dizenshuu which has a lot of contradictions as it is.

To be fair, you kind of overreacted here going on a tirade that did nothing to address the lack of evidence he's brought up.

Thus far, the only hard evidence on SS multipliers is that they're static in numerical terms, as the numbers haven't been conclusively disproven to not apply even now. The belief that there could be more done with each form is not necessarily wrong, but it has no concrete evidence thus far, in the manga OR the anime. Whereas the multipliers for SS to SS2 to SS3 have been documented and solidified in guidebooks, with all other outlets for increases in strength being due to the Saiyans in question either getting stronger overall or using some alternative source of boosting power, such as using the power of SSG to make SS stronger which results in SSB, or Goku absorbing SSG's power into his being to fight Beerus as a regular SS, or mastered SS simply eliminating the strain of the regular SS form because it had the best balance out of all the form's grades and being counted as regular SS otherwise in subsequent referrals.

[Okora]

How about providing some evidence for your claims instead of treating your opinions as hard facts and acting as if people are dumb for not following your ideas?

I'm not arguing nor am I saying one is dumb. I've seen you comment on very similar threads in the past. It doesn't matter what he meant you are one of the people I was talking about and you'd proabably to stuborn to admit it if you were told wrong so you work everything around to make it fit what you believed before. Doesn't matter if Toriyama comes out with a new interview strictly saying super saiyan and no other form can be stronger than two and 3 by mastering it and you still try to say he's just forgetful. People need to stop looking at super saiyan like it's a multiplier in the first place. Also I apologize if I offended you either way but this is topic is debated about to death and I'm tired of it. Also can I ask you why you are so set on the belief that mastered super saiyan is just as strong as normal super saiyan and that normal super saiyan can't get stronger? I don't believe it was actually ever stated to be the case where you think it was besides maybe the dizenshuu which has a lot of contradictions as it is.

To be fair, you kind of overreacted here going on a tirade that did nothing to address the lack of evidence he's brought up.

Thus far, the only hard evidence on SS multipliers is that they're static in numerical terms, as the numbers haven't been conclusively disproven to not apply even now. The belief that there could be more done with each form is not necessarily wrong, but it has no concrete evidence thus far, in the manga OR the anime. Whereas the multipliers for SS to SS2 to SS3 have been documented and solidified in guidebooks, with all other outlets for increases in strength being due to the Saiyans in question either getting stronger overall or using some alternative source of boosting power, such as using the power of SSG to make SS stronger which results in SSB, or Goku absorbing SSG's power into his being to fight Beerus as a regular SS, or mastered SS simply eliminating the strain of the regular SS form because it had the best balance out of all the form's grades and being counted as regular SS otherwise in subsequent referrals.

I'm kind of sick right now so I'm a little on edge. Even now I feel like I'm to sick to actually debate probably and I only understood half of what you said. But as far as I know the only thing that actually mentions multipers at all are the dizenshuu which I feel should be taken with a grain of salt anyway do to all the contradictions and the fact it wasn't actually written by Toriyama. I feel like its more of what his editor believes to be true not what toriyama actually thinks. The dizenshuu said buu saga Gohan was equal to Goten and that Gohan didn't was weaker than he was during the cell games because of rage boost and not because of rust like Vegeta and Goku said. Anyway the only word about muiltpers for Toriyama was just that he envisioned that Goku got 50 times stronger during the fight wither Frieza but still felt like that was a bit of an exaggeration. I don't think multipers are canon in the first place and don't understand why people are so stuck on them. I think the whole point of the interview was he didn't want to deal with super saiyan 2 or 3 anymore so he said super saiyan is stronger with enough training.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm not arguing nor am I saying one is dumb. I've seen you comment on very similar threads in the past. It doesn't matter what he meant you are one of the people I was talking about and you'd proabably to stuborn to admit it if you were told wrong so you work everything around to make it fit what you believed before. Doesn't matter if Toriyama comes out with a new interview strictly saying super saiyan and no other form can be stronger than two and 3 by mastering it and you still try to say he's just forgetful. People need to stop looking at super saiyan like it's a multiplier in the first place. Also I apologize if I offended you either way but this is topic is debated about to death and I'm tired of it. Also can I ask you why you are so set on the belief that mastered super saiyan is just as strong as normal super saiyan and that normal super saiyan can't get stronger? I don't believe it was actually ever stated to be the case where you think it was besides maybe the dizenshuu which has a lot of contradictions as it is.

There is nothing in the original manga, the anime, or any official material suggesting that the multipliers of the Super Saiyan forms change (except for a few exceptions*). The original manga gave the x10 multiplier for Oozaru, the Daizenshuu gave the x50 multiplier for Super Saiyan, and the Super Exciting Guides repeated the x50 multiplier for Super Saiyan and also gave the x100 & x400 multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3 respectively. Why should we go by them? Because Toriyama supervised & approved that specific section of the SEG book which had those multipliers written. This means that Toriyama supports the x50/100/400 multipliers of the Super Saiyan forms, even if he thought that x50 was too much he came to accept it, and he obviously supports the x10 multiplier of Oozaru since he wrote it.

Now in his recent interview, Toriyama didn't talk about the Super Saiyan forms in general. He was asked about what Goku's future transformations could be, and he talked specifically about Goku after his fight with Beerus in BoG. During his fight with Beerus in BoG, the Super Saiyan multiplier wasn't x50, it was x1 or slightly (and insignificantly) higher than x1 because of the SSG power. Then in FnF, Goku's Super Saiyan form has gotten upgraded, not surpassed by a new form. This was changed when Super came to be.

*The only exception so far has been the Super Saiyan 2 form in the Super manga. Through training, Trunks brought the form's multiplier to SS3 level, while Vegeta brought it to a level far above SS3 level. However, there has been no indication so far that any of the other Saiyan forms' multipliers can become greater. There is also the Super Saiyan multiplier becoming smaller because of the SSG power in BoG, and the Super manga implies (through Black's evolution) that the Super Saiyan multiplier grows slowly through training from x1 to the multiplier SSGSS has, and once it is reached its peak, the SS form changes into SSGSS.

If you feel like I'm saying something that is wrong, but I only stick to it because I'm stubborn, feel free to point it out to me. I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone, I'm just either treating them as opinions, or when my opinions are actually conclusions based on facts, then I treat them as facts until someone proves me wrong, but only if I can't see another possible alternative conclusion. And if it turns out that I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

[Okora]

I'm not arguing nor am I saying one is dumb. I've seen you comment on very similar threads in the past. It doesn't matter what he meant you are one of the people I was talking about and you'd proabably to stuborn to admit it if you were told wrong so you work everything around to make it fit what you believed before. Doesn't matter if Toriyama comes out with a new interview strictly saying super saiyan and no other form can be stronger than two and 3 by mastering it and you still try to say he's just forgetful. People need to stop looking at super saiyan like it's a multiplier in the first place. Also I apologize if I offended you either way but this is topic is debated about to death and I'm tired of it. Also can I ask you why you are so set on the belief that mastered super saiyan is just as strong as normal super saiyan and that normal super saiyan can't get stronger? I don't believe it was actually ever stated to be the case where you think it was besides maybe the dizenshuu which has a lot of contradictions as it is.

There is nothing in the original manga, the anime, or any official material suggesting that the multipliers of the Super Saiyan forms change (except for a few exceptions*). The original manga gave the x10 multiplier for Oozaru, the Daizenshuu gave the x50 multiplier for Super Saiyan, and the Super Exciting Guides repeated the x50 multiplier for Super Saiyan and also gave the x100 & x400 multipliers for Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3 respectively. Why should we go by them? Because Toriyama supervised & approved that specific section of the SEG book which had those multipliers written. This means that Toriyama supports the x50/100/400 multipliers of the Super Saiyan forms, even if he thought that x50 was too much he came to accept it, and he obviously supports the x10 multiplier of Oozaru since he wrote it.

Now in his recent interview, Toriyama didn't talk about the Super Saiyan forms in general. He was asked about what Goku's future transformations could be, and he talked specifically about Goku after his fight with Beerus in BoG. During his fight with Beerus in BoG, the Super Saiyan multiplier wasn't x50, it was x1 or slightly (and insignificantly) higher than x1 because of the SSG power. Then in FnF, Goku's Super Saiyan form has gotten upgraded, not surpassed by a new form. This was changed when Super came to be.

*The only exception so far has been the Super Saiyan 2 form in the Super manga. Through training, Trunks brought the form's multiplier to SS3 level, while Vegeta brought it to a level far above SS3 level. However, there has been no indication so far that any of the other Saiyan forms' multipliers can become greater. There is also the Super Saiyan multiplier becoming smaller because of the SSG power in BoG, and the Super manga implies (through Black's evolution) that the Super Saiyan multiplier grows slowly through training from x1 to the multiplier SSGSS has, and once it is reached its peak, the SS form changes into SSGSS.

If you feel like I'm saying something that is wrong, but I only stick to it because I'm stubborn, feel free to point it out to me. I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone, I'm just either treating them as opinions, or when my opinions are actually conclusions based on facts, then I treat them as facts until someone proves me wrong, but only if I can't see another possible alternative conclusion. And if it turns out that I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

There is nothing in the manga or anime suggesting there is a muiltpler in the first place only the daizenshuu which can't be trusted anyway. Then there is toriyama's interview that says the level can be raised. Also what makes you think he was talking specifically about Goku's new forms. Did he say anything about that? Did he mentioned it was about his new forms. No he didn't you just assumed he did because you've been stuck on the idea of multipliers you feel like it has to be true. Right now whether he was talking about normal super saiyan or new forms are not it's still far more valuble than anything said in the daizenshuu and you can't just assume he ment the new forms. And if super saiyan 2 level can be raised why can't normal super saiyan? Your whole logic falls flat on itself. Toriyama also approved Gt and it's guidebook. Does that mean super saiyan 4 is canon? Does that mean Golden oozaru is canon. He also approved Broky and all the movie characters are they canon? I doubt Toriyama even read the daizenshuus until after they were finished. Toriyama did not say one word on muiltpers it was his editor who said the little tidbit about multipliers and a lot of the stuff he said contradicts characters statements in the manga even. Toriyama said super saiyan level can be raised higher so it can. You're just assuming he meant something else simply because of the daizenshuu. The only thing Toriyama ever said was that Goku got 50 times stronger during the fight with Freeza and he still said that was an exaggeration and that most of the time he only envisioned super saiyan as 10 times stronger when he was writing the series. Nothing in the manga supports the idea of there being multipliers in the first place.
If super saiyan 2 can be raised I don't see why normal super saiyan can't since it's literally just a different version of the same form

[Desassina]

How about providing some evidence for your claims instead of treating your opinions as hard facts and acting as if people are dumb for not following your ideas?

Here's a list of them:

1. Goku was a regular SSJ when he emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time. He powered up into half of his full power in front of Korin. If SSJ is 50, then consider halfway towards 100 to be 1.5 times more. Otherwise, consider the start up to be even lower than 50, proving the guides' number wrong.
2. Goku transformed into SSJ3 to showcase Trunks what he could have accomplished in terms of power. Trunks powered up as much as Goku did by using SSJ2, so if the latter is 100, then consider the full extent of it to be 400 like SSJ3. Otherwise, Vegeta's statement would have been wrong, and more excuses would be made.

Same numbers, a whole range between them, and it was not that hard. There are situations where the idea would help solve "power scaling" issues without them proving that the former exists, but it would still be picked apart by anyone demanding facts in their absence, so don't be that kind of guy and embrace it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is nothing in the manga or anime suggesting there is a muiltpler in the first place

Actually, there is.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

This line proves that the SS forms grow along with the base form, they don't grow stronger separately.

only the daizenshuu which can't be trusted anyway.

They have a few small mistakes here & there, which is bound to happen in every single guidebook about anything when they cover a weekly series that has been going on for over a decade. The original manga has more significant mistakes, is it untrustworthy as well?

Then there is toriyama's interview that says the level can be raised. Also what makes you think he was talking specifically about Goku's new forms. Did he say anything about that? Did he mentioned it was about his new forms. No he didn't you just assumed he did because you've been stuck on the idea of multipliers you feel like it has to be true. Right now whether he was talking about normal super saiyan or new forms are not it's still far more valuble than anything said in the daizenshuu and you can't just assume he ment the new forms.

Did you even read the question that was asked to Toriyama? He was asked about what new forms we can expect in the future. Toriyama's answer was literally about the next new transformation, I'm not assuming anything, it is you who take's Toriyama's statement out of context.

And if super saiyan 2 level can be raised why can't normal super saiyan? Your whole logic falls flat on itself.

Because even if the transformations are similar, they have different characteristics. Super Saiyan Grade 3 kills your speed. Super Saiyan 3 lasts for 5 minutes (unless if you are dead in the AfterLife). Super Saiyan God has godly ki. The Super Saiyan forms are not the same thing, but stronger the higher you get. So yes, you'll have to prove that regular Super Saiyan can do what Super Saiyan 2 can do, because there are things regular Super Saiyan can't do that other Super Saiyan forms can do.

Toriyama also approved Gt and it's guidebook. Does that mean super saiyan 4 is canon? Does that mean Golden oozaru is canon. He also approved Broky and all the movie characters are they canon?

The anime (filler, GT, movies, etc) is an adaptation of the original manga, meaning that it's a separate story from it, even if they are similar. The guidebooks are supposed to accompany the original manga, and provide additional information. There is a huge difference here.

Goku was a regular SSJ when he emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time. He powered up into half of his full power in front of Korin. If SSJ is 50, then consider halfway towards 100 to be 1.5 times more. Otherwise, consider the start up to be even lower than 50, proving the guides' number wrong.

This just means that base Goku has gotten very strong, so his SS form has also gotten very strong. What's your point?

Goku transformed into SSJ3 to showcase Trunks what he could have accomplished in terms of power. Trunks powered up as much as Goku did by using SSJ2, so if the latter is 100, then consider the full extent of it to be 400 like SSJ3. Otherwise, Vegeta's statement would have been wrong, and more excuses would be made.

And this just means you didn't even bother to read my posts.

[Desassina]

Never mind. It's pointless to argue like this. You're being told that when their power gets multiplied, it doesn't need to be by a single value, but a range that goes from the currently known ones (50 up to 100 up to 400 and so on). If Goku's power is 12'000k at base, then it can go up to 600'000k before SSJ, stay like with SSJ at its minimum, increase towards half (800'000k) of its full power, or stay like that throughout the battle (1'200'000k). Your post aren't being read because you're relying (and not just you) on too many quoting chains. How is anyone supposed to follow all of this?

[Okora]

There is nothing in the manga or anime suggesting there is a muiltpler in the first place

Actually, there is.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

This line proves that the SS forms grow along with the base form, they don't grow stronger separately.

only the daizenshuu which can't be trusted anyway.

They have a few small mistakes here & there, which is bound to happen in every single guidebook about anything when they cover a weekly series that has been going on for over a decade. The original manga has more significant mistakes, is it untrustworthy as well?

Then there is toriyama's interview that says the level can be raised. Also what makes you think he was talking specifically about Goku's new forms. Did he say anything about that? Did he mentioned it was about his new forms. No he didn't you just assumed he did because you've been stuck on the idea of multipliers you feel like it has to be true. Right now whether he was talking about normal super saiyan or new forms are not it's still far more valuble than anything said in the daizenshuu and you can't just assume he ment the new forms.

Did you even read the question that was asked to Toriyama? He was asked about what new forms we can expect in the future. Toriyama's answer was literally about the next new transformation, I'm not assuming anything, it is you who take's Toriyama's statement out of context.

And if super saiyan 2 level can be raised why can't normal super saiyan? Your whole logic falls flat on itself.

Because even if the transformations are similar, they have different characteristics. Super Saiyan Grade 3 kills your speed. Super Saiyan 3 lasts for 5 minutes (unless if you are dead in the AfterLife). Super Saiyan God has godly ki. The Super Saiyan forms are not the same thing, but stronger the higher you get. So yes, you'll have to prove that regular Super Saiyan can do what Super Saiyan 2 can do, because there are things regular Super Saiyan can't do that other Super Saiyan forms can do.

Toriyama also approved Gt and it's guidebook. Does that mean super saiyan 4 is canon? Does that mean Golden oozaru is canon. He also approved Broky and all the movie characters are they canon?

The anime (filler, GT, movies, etc) is an adaptation of the original manga, meaning that it's a separate story from it, even if they are similar. The guidebooks are supposed to accompany the original manga, and provide additional information. There is a huge difference here.

Goku was a regular SSJ when he emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time. He powered up into half of his full power in front of Korin. If SSJ is 50, then consider halfway towards 100 to be 1.5 times more. Otherwise, consider the start up to be even lower than 50, proving the guides' number wrong.

This just means that base Goku has gotten very strong, so his SS form has also gotten very strong. What's your point?

Goku transformed into SSJ3 to showcase Trunks what he could have accomplished in terms of power. Trunks powered up as much as Goku did by using SSJ2, so if the latter is 100, then consider the full extent of it to be 400 like SSJ3. Otherwise, Vegeta's statement would have been wrong, and more excuses would be made.

And this just means you didn't even bother to read my posts.

The first statement you made does support the idea that there is any multipliers only that super saiyan makes you stronger which we already knew anyway. Also the daizenshuu has made multiple statements that contradict things stated in the manga and recent things. Ratiz power level, potara being permanent, Gohan being rusty. Most of the daizenshuu is 50 50 at best. The daizenshuu has never once been a reliable source and hardly means anymore than the gt files or any promotional material. Because that's really all the daizenshuu is promotional material. Also no Gt is not any different from using the daizenshuu because Toriyama had the same involvement in both. At this point your just saying whatever. There is no reason or any logic reason at all why super saiyan 2 power level can be raised and super saiyan 1s cant and you still haven't provided a reason why. They are all the same form. The reason why they are called 2 and 3 and graded and what not is simply for convenience but in universe they are still the same form. It's like if you change the settings on your tv. Also yes I read Toriyama statement he didn't say anything about new forms. If anything is statement was to say stop focusing on new forms and go back to the basics. I'm sorry but your argument falls flat and you still haven't said anything that supports the idea of super saiyan being a static multiper. Actually I don't even think the Daizenshuu said it couldn't be increased you said that. If super saiyan 2 power level can rise we have no reason to assume that none of the others can't. That's why this argument is pointless because you are just saying they can't without any reason or evidence why.