Vegetto vs Gogeta

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Dr. Gero
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Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Dr. Gero » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:07 am

Is there a reason that Vegetto would be stronger than Gogeta?

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TheMikado
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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby TheMikado » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:07 am

Rivalry boost

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Duo » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:14 am

TheMikado wrote:Rivalry boost


The specifics of which aren't spelled out or indicated to be non-existent for the fusion dance as well.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Dr. Gero » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:16 am

I really don't see anything that can't be explained by other ways.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Hugo Boss » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:23 am

Potara is a better option since they don't need to master the dance and it should last twice the time. Power-wise, we could justify that a godly item is more special than a mortal method.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Dr. Gero » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:29 am

Hugo Boss wrote:Potara is a better option since they don't need to master the dance and it should last twice the time. Power-wise, we could justify that a godly item is more special than a mortal method.

But is there anything in the manga indicating that Vegetto would be stronger than Gogeta? Or that a Potara fusion between two beings would be stronger than a dance fusion between these same beings?

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Hugo Boss » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:35 am

Dr. Gero wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Potara is a better option since they don't need to master the dance and it should last twice the time. Power-wise, we could justify that a godly item is more special than a mortal method.

But is there anything in the manga indicating that Vegetto would be stronger than Gogeta? Or that a Potara fusion between two beings would be stronger than a dance fusion between these same beings?

Not really an indication. Vegetto said he was quite surprised that he was making such a fool of Boo. Perhaps he wasn't expecting Fusion to be that powerful. But it could be Vegetto's mocking attitude.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby ekrolo2 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:39 am

Dr. Gero wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:Potara is a better option since they don't need to master the dance and it should last twice the time. Power-wise, we could justify that a godly item is more special than a mortal method.

But is there anything in the manga indicating that Vegetto would be stronger than Gogeta? Or that a Potara fusion between two beings would be stronger than a dance fusion between these same beings?

Gogeta was supposed to be in the manga before movie 12 made that it's big selling point so I expect that if he did show up there, Toriyama would've given him a rivalry boost similar to Vegetto.

Old Kai does say that Vegetto benefits from the people who make him up whereas Goku expected his hypothetical fusion with Satan & Dende to barely improve his strength or possibly make him weaker then he already was. This kind of proves that, unlike the fusion dance where the two people need to roughly equal one another, the potara is only as good as the people who make it up.
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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Dr. Gero » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:47 am

So can we work with Gogeta = Vegetto?

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby ekrolo2 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:03 am

Dr. Gero wrote:So can we work with Gogeta = Vegetto?

You could if you wanted to, there's nothing that would really contradicts it, if anything, his almost inclusion probably hints that he probably operates closer to Vegetto then Gotenks in terms of power. Some could argue he'd use SS3 to beat Boohan but I think Toriyama probably would've made him a regular SS at most. He didn't bother giving Vegetto 2 and 3 so I don't know why he'd bother to with Gogeta.
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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby ahill1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:08 am

Goku basically thought that a fusion between him and Gohan would need SSJ to beat Bootenks and he would be basing its boost solely on the Fusion Dance's boost, then he's told by old Kai that even base Gokhan will be plenty, that Potara is just that amazing.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Darkprince410 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:18 am

Rou Kaioushin makes it clear that the Potara fusion's effect is greater than that of the Metamorese fusion, and says this in addition to the fact that it was then permanent. That alone indicates it's not the "permanency" that was greater, but something else.

Additionally, Goten and Trunks weren't that far off from their fathers strength wise (to where a hypothetical Buu arc Gogeta would be in the same ballpark as Gotenks in respective forms), but Gotenks needed Ssj3 just to be relatively on par with Evil Buu, while Vegetto was easily dominating the far stronger Gohan Buu.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby Dr. Gero » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:27 am

ahill1 wrote:Goku basically thought that a fusion between him and Gohan would need SSJ to beat Bootenks and he would be basing its boost solely on the Fusion Dance's boost, then he's told by old Kai that even base Gokhan will be plenty, that Potara is just that amazing.

But in the union through Potara, you don't have to suppress your power to perform fusion. A fusion Dance between Goku and Gohan would be performable if Gohan suppressed his power to Goku's level, whereas in the Potara union Gohan shouldn't do it, merging instantly. That explains why a fusion dance between Goku and Gohan would need SSJ, whereas a Potara wouldn't without having to make the Potara stronger.

Darkprince410 wrote:Rou Kaioushin makes it clear that the Potara fusion's effect is greater than that of the Metamorese fusion, and says this in addition to the fact that it was then permanent. That alone indicates it's not the "permanency" that was greater, but something else.

The "effects" doesn't have to be power-related. It's not because that the time limit was mentioned later that it means it wasn't part of the "greater effects". Also, you don't have to suppress your power down to the other's fuser to perform it, which migh be related to the greater effects.

Well, prove Goten and Trunks weren't far below the adults.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby ekrolo2 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:38 am

ahill1 wrote:Goku basically thought that a fusion between him and Gohan would need SSJ to beat Bootenks and he would be basing its boost solely on the Fusion Dance's boost, then he's told by old Kai that even base Gokhan will be plenty, that Potara is just that amazing.

Gokhans power probably has more to do with how strong Gohan is already. In his Ultimate form he's the strongest non-fusion character and since Super Boo & Gotenks are individually weaker then him, Gokhan wouldn't need much more then to double his power in order to smash Bootenks into oblivion.

There's also the fact that Gohan's potential being unlocked would pass on to the fusion, immediately making Gokhan as strong as he can ever be from the moment he's born.
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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:05 am

Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”


And Buuhan implies a hypothetical Gogeta wouldn't be able of defeating him:
Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!
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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby LowRyder2005 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:17 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Elder Kaioshin: “Here! Put this Potara on your left ear! Put the other one on Gohan’s ear. Just by doing that, you two will be able to merge together! Like with Fusion.”
Goku: “Huh! Re-really!?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Of course. And what’s more, the effect is greater than with Fusion! This has been the trump card treasure of the Kaioshins since long ago.”


And Buuhan implies a hypothetical Gogeta wouldn't be able of defeating him:
Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!


The fact that Gogeta is directly stated to be unable to beat Buutenks is almost criminally overlooked, in my opinion. But anyway, we're left with clear implications that manga Gogeta would fall between Super Buu and Buutenks -- possibly even as a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:39 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:The fact that Gogeta is directly stated to be unable to beat Buutenks is almost criminally overlooked, in my opinion. But anyway, we're left with clear implications that manga Gogeta would fall between Super Buu and Buutenks -- possibly even as a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3.


When it's implied he can't take Buutenks? It was Buuhan who stated it. And i'm not sure if Super Saiyan 3 should be put on the mix, considering Vegeta can't turn it and Gotenks showed us fusions has to unlock forms by themselves.
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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby LowRyder2005 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:42 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:The fact that Gogeta is directly stated to be unable to beat Buutenks is almost criminally overlooked, in my opinion. But anyway, we're left with clear implications that manga Gogeta would fall between Super Buu and Buutenks -- possibly even as a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3.


When it's implied he can't take Buutenks? It was Buuhan who stated it. And i'm not sure if Super Saiyan 3 should be put on the mix, considering Vegeta can't turn it and Gotenks showed us fusions has to unlock forms by themselves.


Sorry! That would be a typo... I meant Buuhan as well. I also share your sentiment about SS3 Gogeta, that's just the vibe I personally got from Buu's overflowing confidence. He knows that Goku can transform into a SS3, so his worst case scenario would be that this other human actually can do something similar, especially if he could somehow connect the ki to Vegeta, whom he had met before.

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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:52 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:Sorry! That would be a typo... I meant Buuhan as well. I also share your sentiment about SS3 Gogeta, that's just the vibe I personally got from Buu's overflowing confidence. He knows that Goku can transform into a SS3, so his worst case scenario would be that this other human actually can do something similar, especially if he could somehow connect the ki to Vegeta, whom he had met before.


It's unlikely he considered Vegeta could go SSjin 3, considering he not only has Fat Buu memories but also haa the memories of Piccolo, Gohan and the kids.
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Re: Vegetto vs Gogeta

Postby LowRyder2005 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:58 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:Sorry! That would be a typo... I meant Buuhan as well. I also share your sentiment about SS3 Gogeta, that's just the vibe I personally got from Buu's overflowing confidence. He knows that Goku can transform into a SS3, so his worst case scenario would be that this other human actually can do something similar, especially if he could somehow connect the ki to Vegeta, whom he had met before.


It's unlikely he considered Vegeta could go SSjin 3, considering he not only has Fat Buu memories but also haa the memories of Piccolo, Gohan and the kids.


That's a good point; I agree. Although, getting back to the Fusion, Buu also knows Goku can go Super Saiyan 3, and perhaps thought the fusion resulting from Goku might have also done something similar.


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