Vegetto vs Gogeta

[Whatever]

We don't know how much the fusions boosts them but for simplicity's case lets say it multiplies their current power levels.
Lets say Goku is a 7 and Vegeta is a 6.
With the portara fusion its gonna be 7x6=42
With the fusion dance Goku would need to lower his power level to match Vegeta's so he becomes a 6 as well,6x6=36

So by default the portara fusion is better because anyone can fuse no matter the difference in power level so no power is wasted.

[Grimlock]

We don't know how much the fusions boosts them but for simplicity's case lets say it multiplies their current power levels.
Lets say Goku is a 7 and Vegeta is a 6.
With the portara fusion its gonna be 7x6=42
With the fusion dance Goku would need to lower his power level to match Vegeta's so he becomes a 6 as well,6x6=36

So by default the portara fusion is better because anyone can fuse no matter the difference in power level so no power is wasted.

That's only a requirement in order to make the fusion dance work. It was never even implied that the need to match the power level of one's partner influences on the power level of the resultant being.

And Potara fusion multiplies (as well as Oozaru transformation, Kaio-Ken technique and Super Saiyan transformations. Which leads us to the logical assumption that Metamoran fusion also multiplies. Besides, Gotenks would be way weaker if it was just addition).

And Buuhan implies a hypothetical Gogeta wouldn't be able of defeating him:

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!”

Does the word "merge" really appears there? Because the way Super Buu says in a panel I have here can be understood that he is saying the two of them fighting together, not in a fusion. Also, didn't Super Buu said the same to Vegetto (like: "even if you are merged now, you're still no match for me" or something in the lines)? If so, we can't really take that as a fact that Gogeta can't take on Super Buu.

[Hugo Boss]

Boo's reaction to the possibility of his opponents merging is very contrary to his apparent confidence. If he was that confident in taking on a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, I think he wouldn't try to kill them right away. And even after they merged, he was still in denial.

[ahill1]

Boo's reaction to the possibility of his opponents merging is very contrary to his apparent confidence. If he was that confident in taking on a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, I think he wouldn't try to kill them right away. And even after they merged, he was still in denial.

I honestly don't think it's contrary. He was going to kill them because Goku's time was up. I mean, even when Goku decided to fuse with Mr. Satan, Boohan said "Goodbye" and was with intentions of killing him, even though we know Gotan should be absolutely no match for Boohan.

When Vegetto was formed, Boohan also didn't seem so scared and attacked him right off the bat, which seems strange if he was actually fearing a fusion between both. He also stated that "it" (being smacked around) shouldn't be happening, further reinforcing he didn't think a fusion between Goku and Vegeta would be a threat, imo. He was somewhat hard to be convinced of his inferiority, but this does not negate his thoughts of Gogeta's standing.

If he made a comment like Bootenks that he "didn't want to take the risk of the fusion", then I could totally see his actions as contrary to his statement, but considering he was already on his way to kill Goku and no such comment was made regarding their fusion being a potential threat to him, I see it as just him not worrying too much about it.

[Hugo Boss]

Boo's reaction to the possibility of his opponents merging is very contrary to his apparent confidence. If he was that confident in taking on a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, I think he wouldn't try to kill them right away. And even after they merged, he was still in denial.

I honestly don't think it's contrary. He was going to kill them because Goku's time was up. I mean, even when Goku decided to fuse with Mr. Satan, Boohan said "Goodbye" and was with intentions of killing him, even though we know Gotan should be absolutely no match for Boohan.

When Vegetto was formed, Boohan also didn't seem so scared and attacked him right off the bat, which seems strange if he was actually fearing a fusion between both. He also stated that "it" (being smacked around) shouldn't be happening, further reinforcing he didn't think a fusion between Goku and Vegeta would be a threat, imo. He was somewhat hard to be convinced of his inferiority, but this does not negate his thoughts of Gogeta's standing.

If he made a comment like Bootenks that he "didn't want to take the risk of the fusion", then I could totally see his actions as contrary to his statement, but considering he was already on his way to kill Goku and no such comment was made regarding their fusion being a potential threat to him, I see it as just him not worrying too much about it.

Hmm, I overlooked that. But it's still unclear for me wether he was talking with conviction or boasting. I don't deny he could have calculated the result, given he has Piccolo's brains and the kids' memories, but I'm on the side he understimated their fusion.

[Darkprince410]

The "effects" doesn't have to be power-related. It's not because that the time limit was mentioned later that it means it wasn't part of the "greater effects". Also, you don't have to suppress your power down to the other's fuser to perform it, which migh be related to the greater effects.

Well, prove Goten and Trunks weren't far below the adults.

The Daizenshuu goes on further to specify that it's the strength of the fusion that is "greater", and not just the "effect". All other "reasons" for the Potaras to have a greater effect than the Metamorese fusion are addressed separately from his comment, altogether supporting that it's something not mentioned.

Daizenshuu 2's entry for Goten establishes him being of equal strength to Gohan, and the events of the Buu arc feat wise support the boys being close to their fathers and Gohan strength wise.

[theherodjl]

Gogeta unfortunately only appeared in the movie dimension, GT, and the video games, while Vegetto makes appearances in the manga & anime series. There's no real way to tell who definitively is more powerful because neither have existed in the same medium together.
The only fights that are comparable enough is Vegetto vs Boohan & Gogeta vs Janemba. Vegetto's strength is already known in that it was considerably greater than Boohan's and he would've eradicated Majin Boo if not for the plot needing the absorbees to be rescued, Gogeta's strength however needs to be examined a little more. In the timeline of movie 12, Gotenks likely destroyed Majin Boo so Goku & Vegeta stayed dead. Goku may have continued his training so he might be marginally more powerful than he was in the anime while Vegeta would be at the same power from being deprived of his body in hell, in any case Gogeta would be based off Vegeta's strength due to the fusion dance requiring both fusees to have the same strength. Once fused, Gogeta easily smacked Janemba around and then finished him off with a special Ki attack. Now on an old Toei film website, it was stated that Janemba was stronger than Hirudegarn, who itself was more than powerful enough to down Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan. That would put Hirudegarn at Bootenks tier as a comparison, if Janemba is supposed to be stronger than Hirude then that would put Janemba on the tier of Boohan potentially. Only for Janemba to be defeated by Gogeta almost effortlessly which provides little room in determining if Gogeta, who was based off Vegeta's strength, was actually either superior or inferior to Vegetto.
I'd just settle for them being equals until they appear together.

[LowRyder2005]

And Buuhan implies a hypothetical Gogeta wouldn't be able of defeating him:

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!”

Does the word "merge" really appears there? Because the way Super Buu says in a panel I have here can be understood that he is saying the two of them fighting together, not in a fusion. Also, didn't Super Buu said the same to Vegetto (like: "even if you are merged now, you're still no match for me" or something in the lines)? If so, we can't really take that as a fact that Gogeta can't take on Super Buu.

Well, "merge" or the term for "fusing" obviously appears as such, since it's virtually the same word always -- for reference, it's the exact same term used by Goku in BOG when he says he and Vegeta "fusing" wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. And Buuhan's opinion of Vegito actually strengthens the argument, if anything, since he's starting off the assumption that Potara and Metamoran fusions should be the exact same gimmick. ahill1 made some very well-thought examples.

Furthermore, Gogeta probably being weak sauce to Buuhan only makes sense when you think about it. The kids, as previously stated, surely aren't that much weaker than their fathers far at that point (everything points towards the fact Goten shouldn't be that much weaker than Gohan in the first place). Buutenks is Gotenks * 2 (or something more, depending on who you think is stronger than whom).

The only assumption needed for this to work is that the squirts are at some 50% or 60% of their fathers' own strength, which is fairly reasonable. Going off the idea Fusion multiplies the weaker fusee's power is also something short of a necessary assumption: Buutenks would otherwise have wanted to avoid Goku + Gohan at any cost, as Gohan himself was at worst some 50% weaker. Thus Gohan * 10 would have spelt instant doom.
This basically leaves you with "Gogeta" and "Gokhan" in-between Super Buu and Buutenks, given that the latter also states that Goku + Gohan would be weaker. And honestly? It works like a charm, not only the official mutlipliers but even with the guides that describe the Metamoran fusion as some "many tens of times" multiplier (SEG and GT perfect files). Some form of Gogeta should defeat normal Super Buu without issue, though, given Goku's complete confidence in using a normal Fusion to defeat Super Buu.
Purely to put things in perspective, these could be some arbitrary numbers with a *30 multiplier for the Metamoran Fusion:

______________________________________________________________________________
#18: 760,000,000
Piccolo: 4 billions
Kaioshin: 4.45 billions

Goku: 5.2 billions (Super Saiyan)
______41.6 billions (Super Saiyan 3)
______SS3(?) “Goku + Gohan fusion”: 1,248 billions

Vegeta: 5 billions (Super Saiyan)
_______SS3 Gogeta: 1,200 billions

Trunks (pre-ROSAT): 1.16 billions (Super Saiyan)
Goten (pre-ROSAT): 1.15 billions (Super Saiyan)

Fat Buu: 24 billions
Gotenks (pre-ROSAT): 34.5 billions (Super Saiyan) *

Goten (post-ROSAT): 3.5 billions (Super Saiyan)
Gotenks (post-ROSAT): 105 billions (Super Saiyan)
___________________ 840 billions (Super Saiyan 3)

Super Buu: 650 billions **
Ultimate Gohan: 920 billions

Buutenks: 1,494 billions
Buuhan: 1,582 billions

Vegito [conservative]: 45 billions (Base form) ***
_______2,250 billions (Super Saiyan)
Vegito [less conservative]: 1,600 billions (Base form)
_______________________ 80,000 billions (Super Saiyan)

* Truthfully, he could be much, much higher than this.

** Any value that puts him at bare minimum below SS3 Gogeta works, especially since:
A. Goku thinks they *need* Vegito for any Buu which isn't the first one (which is clarified through a couple of other statements to be the "Fat").
B. Goku more or less brings up "Gogeta" as a viable and easy way out only considering the idea of fighting Super Buu; Buutenks states that Goku + Gohan shouldn't defeat him and Buuhan states in even clearer terms that the supposedly "weaker" Goku + Vegeta also can't.

** In a somewhat conservative view, he'd just be just stronger than SS3. "Even without transforming, his power greater than a SS3" per the Daizenshuu; hence, base Vegito he could go anywhere from stronger than Goku to stronger than Ultimate Gohan, the latter at least somewhat reinforced by his portrayal in the anime. Rou Kaioshin, in turn, says that even without transforming into a Super Saiyan "Gokhan" should have an easy time with Buu... it could be because of Gohan's Ultimate factoring in, as the gap becomes fairly gigantic otherwise, but again - in the anime - base Vegito also apparently fights equally with Buuhan (whom, to others, may be just toying with Vegito). Very open to intepretation.
______________________________________________________________________________

The only possible ambiguity I could see is Goku suggesting off the top of his idea that he could Metamor-fuse with Gohan to take on Buutenks, but since he was willing to go and try to fight Buutenks in SS3 as a last resort, it just, well, reeks of desperation. Then again, even in my numbers the Metamoran "Gokhan" doesn't end up that far below Buutenks, so I don't think it was an unreasonable proposal... it was a better idea than SS3 for sure.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, "merge" or the term for "fusing" obviously appears as such, since it's virtually the same word always -- for reference, it's the exact same term used by Goku in BOG when he says he and Vegeta "fusing" wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. And Buuhan's opinion of Vegito actually strengthens the argument, if anything, since he's starting off the assumption that Potara and Metamoran fusions should be the exact same gimmick. ahill1 made some very well-thought examples.

Furthermore, Gogeta probably being weak sauce to Buuhan only makes sense when you think about it. The kids, as previously stated, surely aren't that much weaker than their fathers far at that point (everything points towards the fact Goten shouldn't be that much weaker than Gohan in the first place). Buutenks is Gotenks * 2 (or something more, depending on who you think is stronger than whom).

The only assumption needed for this to work is that the squirts are at some 50% or 60% of their fathers' own strength, which is fairly reasonable. Going off the idea Fusion multiplies the weaker fusee's power is also something short of a necessary assumption: Buutenks would otherwise have wanted to avoid Goku + Gohan at any cost, as Gohan himself was at worst some 50% weaker. Thus Gohan * 10 would have spelt instant doom.
This basically leaves you with "Gogeta" and "Gokhan" in-between Super Buu and Buutenks, given that the latter also states that Goku + Gohan would be weaker. And honestly? It works like a charm, not only the official mutlipliers but even with the guides that describe the Metamoran fusion as some "many tens of times" multiplier (SEG and GT perfect files). Some form of Gogeta should defeat normal Super Buu without issue, though, given Goku's complete confidence in using a normal Fusion to defeat Super Buu.
Purely to put things in perspective, these could be some arbitrary numbers with a *30 multiplier for the Metamoran Fusion:

______________________________________________________________________________
#18: 760,000,000
Piccolo: 4 billions
Kaioshin: 4.45 billions

Goku: 5.2 billions (Super Saiyan)
______41.6 billions (Super Saiyan 3)
______SS3(?) “Goku + Gohan fusion”: 1,248 billions

Vegeta: 5 billions (Super Saiyan)
_______SS3 Gogeta: 1,200 billions

Trunks (pre-ROSAT): 1.16 billions (Super Saiyan)
Goten (pre-ROSAT): 1.15 billions (Super Saiyan)

Fat Buu: 24 billions
Gotenks (pre-ROSAT): 34.5 billions (Super Saiyan) *

Goten (post-ROSAT): 3.5 billions (Super Saiyan)
Gotenks (post-ROSAT): 105 billions (Super Saiyan)
___________________ 840 billions (Super Saiyan 3)

Super Buu: 650 billions **
Ultimate Gohan: 920 billions

Buutenks: 1,494 billions
Buuhan: 1,582 billions

Vegito [conservative]: 45 billions (Base form) ***
_______2,250 billions (Super Saiyan)
Vegito [less conservative]: 1,600 billions (Base form)
_______________________ 80,000 billions (Super Saiyan)

* Truthfully, he could be much, much higher than this.

** Any value that puts him at bare minimum below SS3 Gogeta works, especially since:
A. Goku thinks they *need* Vegito for any Buu which isn't the first one (which is clarified through a couple of other statements to be the "Fat").
B. Goku more or less brings up "Gogeta" as a viable and easy way out only considering the idea of fighting Super Buu; Buutenks states that Goku + Gohan shouldn't defeat him and Buuhan states in even clearer terms that the supposedly "weaker" Goku + Vegeta also can't.

** In a somewhat conservative view, he'd just be just stronger than SS3. "Even without transforming, his power greater than a SS3" per the Daizenshuu; hence, base Vegito he could go anywhere from stronger than Goku to stronger than Ultimate Gohan, the latter at least somewhat reinforced by his portrayal in the anime. Rou Kaioshin, in turn, says that even without transforming into a Super Saiyan "Gokhan" should have an easy time with Buu... it could be because of Gohan's Ultimate factoring in, as the gap becomes fairly gigantic otherwise, but again - in the anime - base Vegito also apparently fights equally with Buuhan (whom, to others, may be just toying with Vegito). Very open to intepretation.
______________________________________________________________________________

The only possible ambiguity I could see is Goku suggesting off the top of his idea that he could Metamor-fuse with Gohan to take on Buutenks, but since he was willing to go and try to fight Buutenks in SS3 as a last resort, it just, well, reeks of desperation. Then again, even in my numbers the Metamoran "Gokhan" doesn't end up that far below Buutenks, so I don't think it was an unreasonable proposal... it was a better idea than SS3 for sure.

Buutenks has no clue about Potara though, and is contradicted by Elder Kaioshin saying Potara Gokhan should be able to beat Buutenks in base:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

Personally i stick around with this chain for the fusions:
Base Gokhan >=< SSjin Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> SSjin 2 Gogeta/Metamorian Gokhan* >= Buutenks >> Chou Gohan >>> SSjin 3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu

I think Base Gokhan would keep the Elder Kai unlock from Gohan and wouldn't be able to transform. A Metamorian Gokhan could be equals with Gogeta, considering both have Goku as a part of it, but it's possible Gohan's suppression does not affect the outcome and makes the fusion way stronger, but i doubt. Gogeta could be higher as well due to being a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, but it's pretty tough to fit him comfortably above Buutenks but also below Buuhan. But again, nothing really implies Gogeta should be above Buutenks besides the hypothesis of Gogeta ~ Gokhan > Buutenks. Gogeta could even be as low as only 1.1 stronger than Super Buu tbh. Maybe i'm going to stick around with something like this:
Potara Gokhan >> Metamorian Gokhan >? SSjin Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> Buutenks >> Chou Gohan ~ SSjin 2 Gogeta >>> SSjin 3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu.

[Whatever]

We don't know how much the fusions boosts them but for simplicity's case lets say it multiplies their current power levels.
Lets say Goku is a 7 and Vegeta is a 6.
With the portara fusion its gonna be 7x6=42
With the fusion dance Goku would need to lower his power level to match Vegeta's so he becomes a 6 as well,6x6=36

So by default the portara fusion is better because anyone can fuse no matter the difference in power level so no power is wasted.

That's only a requirement in order to make the fusion dance work. It was never even implied that the need to match the power level of one's partner influences on the power level of the resultant being.

And Potara fusion multiplies (as well as Oozaru transformation, Kaio-Ken technique and Super Saiyan transformations. Which leads us to the logical assumption that Metamoran fusion also multiplies. Besides, Gotenks would be way weaker if it was just addition).

Well it was never implied but logically the stronger the user the better the fusion,also they would be no point for Goku to tell Trunks to lower his power level to match Goten's,when they could do it with their 'rested' powerlevel much easier if the result would be the same.

I never said it was an addition but for all we know the portara or the fusion dance could use a different formula.
(for example)It could (a+b)x30 instead of axb for all we know.

[Grimlock]

Well it was never implied but logically the stronger the user the better the fusion,also they would be no point for Goku to tell Trunks to lower his power level to match Goten's,when they could do it with their 'rested' powerlevel much easier if the result would be the same.

Yes, and both Gogeta and Vegetto appeared practically at the same time. So they would be about the same power level, only Vegetto a little bit stronger due to the "rival boost" nonsense. Well, while what you said could also work, we don't know for sure because we don't have much information about Metamoruseijins and why there are such requirements in order to perform the fusion dance.

I never said it was an addition but for all we know the portara or the fusion dance could use a different formula.
(for example)It could (a+b)x30 instead of axb for all we know.

It could. But with many other power-ups using multiplier, there's no reason to think Metamoran fusion would be different unless explicitly said. Potara has been said to be pure multiplication by the "Super Exciting Guide" guidebook.

[Darkprince410]

It could. But with many other power-ups using multiplier, there's no reason to think Metamoran fusion would be different unless explicitly said. Potara has been said to be pure multiplication by the "Super Exciting Guide" guidebook.

Both the Son Goku Densetsu and GT Perfect Files keep it as a fairly low increase, just referring to it as "many times" and "many tens of times", rather than suggesting it's an actual multiplier of the two, like with the SEG and Potara's multiplier.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, "merge" or the term for "fusing" obviously appears as such, since it's virtually the same word always -- for reference, it's the exact same term used by Goku in BOG when he says he and Vegeta "fusing" wouldn't be enough to beat Beerus. And Buuhan's opinion of Vegito actually strengthens the argument, if anything, since he's starting off the assumption that Potara and Metamoran fusions should be the exact same gimmick. ahill1 made some very well-thought examples.

Furthermore, Gogeta probably being weak sauce to Buuhan only makes sense when you think about it. The kids, as previously stated, surely aren't that much weaker than their fathers far at that point (everything points towards the fact Goten shouldn't be that much weaker than Gohan in the first place). Buutenks is Gotenks * 2 (or something more, depending on who you think is stronger than whom).

The only assumption needed for this to work is that the squirts are at some 50% or 60% of their fathers' own strength, which is fairly reasonable. Going off the idea Fusion multiplies the weaker fusee's power is also something short of a necessary assumption: Buutenks would otherwise have wanted to avoid Goku + Gohan at any cost, as Gohan himself was at worst some 50% weaker. Thus Gohan * 10 would have spelt instant doom.
This basically leaves you with "Gogeta" and "Gokhan" in-between Super Buu and Buutenks, given that the latter also states that Goku + Gohan would be weaker. And honestly? It works like a charm, not only the official mutlipliers but even with the guides that describe the Metamoran fusion as some "many tens of times" multiplier (SEG and GT perfect files). Some form of Gogeta should defeat normal Super Buu without issue, though, given Goku's complete confidence in using a normal Fusion to defeat Super Buu.
Purely to put things in perspective, these could be some arbitrary numbers with a *30 multiplier for the Metamoran Fusion:

______________________________________________________________________________
#18: 760,000,000
Piccolo: 4 billions
Kaioshin: 4.45 billions

Goku: 5.2 billions (Super Saiyan)
______41.6 billions (Super Saiyan 3)
______SS3(?) “Goku + Gohan fusion”: 1,248 billions

Vegeta: 5 billions (Super Saiyan)
_______SS3 Gogeta: 1,200 billions

Trunks (pre-ROSAT): 1.16 billions (Super Saiyan)
Goten (pre-ROSAT): 1.15 billions (Super Saiyan)

Fat Buu: 24 billions
Gotenks (pre-ROSAT): 34.5 billions (Super Saiyan) *

Goten (post-ROSAT): 3.5 billions (Super Saiyan)
Gotenks (post-ROSAT): 105 billions (Super Saiyan)
___________________ 840 billions (Super Saiyan 3)

Super Buu: 650 billions **
Ultimate Gohan: 920 billions

Buutenks: 1,494 billions
Buuhan: 1,582 billions

Vegito [conservative]: 45 billions (Base form) ***
_______2,250 billions (Super Saiyan)
Vegito [less conservative]: 1,600 billions (Base form)
_______________________ 80,000 billions (Super Saiyan)

* Truthfully, he could be much, much higher than this.

** Any value that puts him at bare minimum below SS3 Gogeta works, especially since:
A. Goku thinks they *need* Vegito for any Buu which isn't the first one (which is clarified through a couple of other statements to be the "Fat").
B. Goku more or less brings up "Gogeta" as a viable and easy way out only considering the idea of fighting Super Buu; Buutenks states that Goku + Gohan shouldn't defeat him and Buuhan states in even clearer terms that the supposedly "weaker" Goku + Vegeta also can't.

** In a somewhat conservative view, he'd just be just stronger than SS3. "Even without transforming, his power greater than a SS3" per the Daizenshuu; hence, base Vegito he could go anywhere from stronger than Goku to stronger than Ultimate Gohan, the latter at least somewhat reinforced by his portrayal in the anime. Rou Kaioshin, in turn, says that even without transforming into a Super Saiyan "Gokhan" should have an easy time with Buu... it could be because of Gohan's Ultimate factoring in, as the gap becomes fairly gigantic otherwise, but again - in the anime - base Vegito also apparently fights equally with Buuhan (whom, to others, may be just toying with Vegito). Very open to intepretation.
______________________________________________________________________________

The only possible ambiguity I could see is Goku suggesting off the top of his idea that he could Metamor-fuse with Gohan to take on Buutenks, but since he was willing to go and try to fight Buutenks in SS3 as a last resort, it just, well, reeks of desperation. Then again, even in my numbers the Metamoran "Gokhan" doesn't end up that far below Buutenks, so I don't think it was an unreasonable proposal... it was a better idea than SS3 for sure.

Buutenks has no clue about Potara though, and is contradicted by Elder Kaioshin saying Potara Gokhan should be able to beat Buutenks in base:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

Personally i stick around with this chain for the fusions:
Base Gokhan >=< SSjin Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> SSjin 2 Gogeta/Metamorian Gokhan* >= Buutenks >> Chou Gohan >>> SSjin 3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu

I think Base Gokhan would keep the Elder Kai unlock from Gohan and wouldn't be able to transform. A Metamorian Gokhan could be equals with Gogeta, considering both have Goku as a part of it, but it's possible Gohan's suppression does not affect the outcome and makes the fusion way stronger, but i doubt. Gogeta could be higher as well due to being a fusion of Goku and Vegeta, but it's pretty tough to fit him comfortably above Buutenks but also below Buuhan. But again, nothing really implies Gogeta should be above Buutenks besides the hypothesis of Gogeta ~ Gokhan > Buutenks. Gogeta could even be as low as only 1.1 stronger than Super Buu tbh. Maybe i'm going to stick around with something like this:
Potara Gokhan >> Metamorian Gokhan >? SSjin Vegetto >>> Buuhan >> Buutenks >> Chou Gohan ~ SSjin 2 Gogeta >>> SSjin 3 Gotenks ~ Super Buu.

To clarify: with "Gokhan" I meant the "Metamoran Gokhan" that Buutenks think is going to appear when Goku fused with Gohan; the actual "Potara Gokhan" should evidently turn out strong enough to beat Buutenks "without going Super Saiyan".

As much as I wanted to, I couldn't make Gohan fit below SS2 Gogeta myself without contradicting some part of the "Buutenks > Metamoran Gokhan & Gogeta > Super Buu" part. I basically have SS3 Gogeta : Ultimate Gohan = Ultimate Gohan : SS3 Gotenks.

Like I said above, I speculate that the Fusion multiplies the weaker fusee's power (otherwise, a fighter could simply randomly multiply his power manyfold by teaching the dance to anyone, even by fusing with a regular farmer, and it sounds fairly odd); in which case, I'd also speculate that Goku who would make the Metamoran Fusion weaker. Gohan should be leaps and bounds above him and would need to bring down his power to match his father's level, which means that the Metamoran Gokhan could be somewhat stronger than Gohan... but not enough to make Buu fear for his life.

But yeah, you could have Metamoran Gokhan stronger because of Goku's words that and think that Buu's bluffing, I guess. I simply think that Goku wasn't lucid there and just willing to try everything, be it giving support to Gohan with SS3 or with an improptu Fusion.

[Juub]

The fact that Gogeta is directly stated to be unable to beat Buutenks is almost criminally overlooked, in my opinion. But anyway, we're left with clear implications that manga Gogeta would fall between Super Buu and Buutenks -- possibly even as a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3.

When it's implied he can't take Buutenks? It was Buuhan who stated it. And i'm not sure if Super Saiyan 3 should be put on the mix, considering Vegeta can't turn it and Gotenks showed us fusions has to unlock forms by themselves.

Sorry! That would be a typo... I meant Buuhan as well. I also share your sentiment about SS3 Gogeta, that's just the vibe I personally got from Buu's overflowing confidence. He knows that Goku can transform into a SS3, so his worst case scenario would be that this other human actually can do something similar, especially if he could somehow connect the ki to Vegeta, whom he had met before.

Are you really gonna rely on a statement made by that Majin Buu? He was drunk with power and even when Vegeto was kicking his ass, he still thought he was stronger. His comments regarding Gogeta's strength are meaningless. SSJ Gogeta would murk him almost as easily as SSJ Vegeto.

Also SSJ3 Gogeta being on the same level as Ultimate Gohan makes no sense. Toriyama was planning on having him fight Majin Buu with Gohan absorbed before Toei upstaged him. Unless you think he was planning on Gogeta getting thrashed then there's absolutely no way SSJ3 Gogeta would be below or around Ultimate Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

When it's implied he can't take Buutenks? It was Buuhan who stated it. And i'm not sure if Super Saiyan 3 should be put on the mix, considering Vegeta can't turn it and Gotenks showed us fusions has to unlock forms by themselves.

Sorry! That would be a typo... I meant Buuhan as well. I also share your sentiment about SS3 Gogeta, that's just the vibe I personally got from Buu's overflowing confidence. He knows that Goku can transform into a SS3, so his worst case scenario would be that this other human actually can do something similar, especially if he could somehow connect the ki to Vegeta, whom he had met before.

Are you really gonna rely on a statement made by that Majin Buu? He was drunk with power and even when Vegeto was kicking his ass, he still thought he was stronger. His comments regarding Gogeta's strength are meaningless. SSJ Gogeta would murk him almost as easily as SSJ Vegeto.

Also SSJ3 Gogeta being on the same level as Ultimate Gohan makes no sense. Toriyama was planning on having him fight Majin Buu with Gohan absorbed before Toei upstaged him. Unless you think he was planning on Gogeta getting thrashed then there's absolutely no way SSJ3 Gogeta would be below or around Ultimate Gohan.

I didn't say SS3 Gogeta was equal to nor rivaling Ultimate Gohan, I said he'd be above Gohan but below Buuhan.
Regarding the bolded, that's literally the first time I've heard he was supposed to face Buu with Gohan absorbed. Do you have actual proof? Fusion Reborn was released in March of '95, when Kid Buu had already appeared in the manga; the movie before that (Bio-Broly) was released in July '94, or about the time Gotenks first appears. Assuming he received news of Toei's Gogeta at some point in-between the movies, Toriyama might have expected to use Gogeta versus, say, Super Buu and before he devised the entire Buutenks/Buuhan/Gohan subplot.

As for the rest, everything you said has already been addressed in this thread by many other users (I suggest you re-read ahill1's considerations in particular). There's little to no reason to think Buu was "too drunk with power" to assess the strength of a potential opponent and has little reason to lie or not to be a reliable judge here. Unless you start with the idea Gogeta must be that strong because of some preconceived notion inherited from how strong Gogeta appears in the movie. I mean, there's literally only evidence of the contrary in the manga: for starters, do you really think that SS3 Goten post-ROSAT would be inferior to SS Vegeta?

At most I could see Toriyama wanting to give Gogeta some sort of deus-ex machina plot power in the same manner he did Vegito. But the manga simply leaves you with the general idea he's supposed to follow the same Fusion multiplier of Gotenks; Buu's statements obviously corroborate that notion. Anything further than that is just speculation.

[ekrolo2]

If we're going to assume Gogeta works closer to Gotenks, then yes, he shouldn't be able to beat Boohan even with SS3. He'd definitely be above Gohan and Gotenks, but Bootenks and Boohan would be above him.

Super Boo - 8.5
SS3 Gotenks - 10
Ultimate Gohan - 12
SS3 Gogeta - 15
Bootenks - 18.5
Boohan - 20.5

[LowRyder2005]

If we're going to assume Gogeta works closer to Gotenks, then yes, he shouldn't be able to beat Boohan even with SS3. He'd definitely be above Gohan and Gotenks, but Bootenks and Boohan would be above him.

Super Boo - 8.5
SS3 Gotenks - 10
Ultimate Gohan - 12
SS3 Gogeta - 15
Bootenks - 18.5
Boohan - 20.5

Indeed, these are more or less my gaps as well. Of course I'm not saying we can't consider other hypothetical scenarios in which Gogeta turns out to possess some strange extra boost because "reasons", but I'm fairly certain this is what most would ultimately deduce after sorting through everyone's statements and when keeping the reader's interposition at a minimum.

[Juub]

As for the rest, everything you said has already been addressed in this thread by many other users (I suggest you re-read ahill1's considerations in particular). There's little to no reason to think Buu was "too drunk with power" to assess the strength of a potential opponent and has little reason to lie or not to be a reliable judge here. Unless you start with the idea Gogeta must be that strong because of some preconceived notion inherited from how strong Gogeta appears in the movie. I mean, there's literally only evidence of the contrary in the manga: for starters, do you really think that SS3 Goten post-ROSAT would be inferior to SS Vegeta?

Buu refused to admit Vegeto was stronger than he was so what makes you think he would expect Gogeta to be stronger? First Vegeto turned SSJ Buu was simply "so what lol?". Then Vegeto easily blocked his attacks and kicked him in his face he simply said he'd make Vegeto suffer. He still thought he was stronger. We're supposed to believe that guy would even admit Gogeta would be stronger? I also read his comments which makes no sense. We're supposed to rely on a guy who has someone FAR STRONGER in front of him yet refuses to admit it?

As for the rest:

What about the concept of the Potara?
That was simply, since Fusion was a plot point that was already taken by one of the movies, I was wondering what I should do; I had always been drawing earrings [on Kaiōshin], so I thought, “perhaps I can use these”…

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Also doesn't matter when Fusion Reborn came out. Toriyama is the original author so they likely told him the script way before it came out. He likely knew it before pre-production even began.

[LowRyder2005]

Buu refused to admit Vegeto was stronger than he was so what makes you think he would expect Gogeta to be stronger? First Vegeto turned SSJ Buu was simply "so what lol?". Then Vegeto easily blocked his attacks and kicked him in his face he simply said he'd make Vegeto suffer. He still thought he was stronger. We're supposed to believe that guy would even admit Gogeta would be stronger? I also read his comments which makes no sense. We're supposed to rely on a guy who has someone FAR STRONGER in front of him yet he refuses to admit it?

As for the rest:

What about the concept of the Potara?
That was simply, since Fusion was a plot point that was already taken by one of the movies, I was wondering what I should do; I had always been drawing earrings [on Kaiōshin], so I thought, “perhaps I can use these”…

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Also doesn't matter when Fusion Reborn came out. Toriyama is the original author so they likely told him the script way before it came out. He likely knew it before pre-production even began.

First off, Buuhan is pretty sure Vegito wouldn't be that strong for a normal Fusion exactly because he thinks he knows how Fusion works. As Buu also knows how a Fusion works and every element of the equation, the question becomes "why should we all automatically assume he'd be wrong about it"? *re-reads the post* No actual reason given.

... Also, you do realize you have not answered my question at all? When is it said he wouldn't have used Gogeta vs. Super Buu or that he would've used Gogeta to defeat or fight Buuhan? The only info you got in the entire whopping interview is that he didn't think of creating Vegito back when the Potara first appeared, which is all the way back when Shin and Kibito appear.

The rest is just you taking issue with what the manga spells out for you and making hypothesis about the extent Buu's hubris is factoring in. I don't think anyone is interested in headcanon here.

[Juub]

Buu refused to admit Vegeto was stronger than he was so what makes you think he would expect Gogeta to be stronger? First Vegeto turned SSJ Buu was simply "so what lol?". Then Vegeto easily blocked his attacks and kicked him in his face he simply said he'd make Vegeto suffer. He still thought he was stronger. We're supposed to believe that guy would even admit Gogeta would be stronger? I also read his comments which makes no sense. We're supposed to rely on a guy who has someone FAR STRONGER in front of him yet he refuses to admit it?

As for the rest:

What about the concept of the Potara?
That was simply, since Fusion was a plot point that was already taken by one of the movies, I was wondering what I should do; I had always been drawing earrings [on Kaiōshin], so I thought, “perhaps I can use these”…

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Also doesn't matter when Fusion Reborn came out. Toriyama is the original author so they likely told him the script way before it came out. He likely knew it before pre-production even began.

And Buuhan is pretty sure Vegito wouldn't be that strong for a normal Fusion, Buu also knows how a Fusion works and every element of the equation. "Why we should all automatically assume he'd wrong? No reason given.

... Also, you do realize you have not answered my question at all? When is it said he wouldn't have used Gogeta vs. Super Buu?
The rest is just you taking issue with what the manga spells out for you. I don't think anyone here is interested in your headcanon.

Vegeto standing right in front of Buuhan was already stronger. Far far stronger. Buuhan refuses to admit it. What does that tell you? That he thought HIS own power was unbeatable. It makes him completely unreliable because he readily refused to admit Vegeto was stronger so again, what makes you think he would think Gogeta would even be a threat? Whereas Super Buu was kinda stupid he wasn't reckless. Buuhan got so powerful he thought he was invincible. I mean dude, he got kicked in the face and all he said was that he'd make Vegeto suffer. So how am I supposed to rely on him? He CAN sense Ki. Feels a Ki far larger than his own, doesn't wanna believe it.

As for the interview he was talking about Fusion Reborn which took the plot point of fusion(Goku and Vegeta fusing) so he came up with the Potalas instead of them using the fusion like in the movie. The only difference is the way they fused. There's nothing indicating the outcome would have been different.