Vegetto vs Gogeta

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Boos statement in the story has nothing to do with gogeta or comparing the dance to potara to begin with.

Boo states that fusion can't beat him and he's proven wrong when Vegito is formed. That's the significance of that interaction in the story. Not seeing how gogeta even factors into anything that was said when statements are read in context. Boo isn't calculating any "dance multiplier" in his head, not that fusion was stated to have a static multiplier anyway.

That and the author already stated that the only reason that he didn't use the dance against boo was because toei used it in movie 12.
So I'm not seeing the point here. Boo would have said his same little rant about fusion not being enough then get beat by gogeta just like toriyama intended.

[Grimlock]

Boos statement in the story has nothing to do with gogeta or comparing the dance to potara to begin with.

Boo states that fusion can't beat him and he's proven wrong when Vegito is formed. That's the significance of that interaction in the story. Not seeing how gogeta even factors into anything that was said when statements are read in context. Boo isn't calculating any "dance multiplier" in his head, not that fusion was stated to have a static multiplier anyway.

That and the author already stated that the only reason that he didn't use the dance against boo was because toei used it in movie 12.
So I'm not seeing the point here. Boo would have said his same little rant about fusion not being enough then get beat by gogeta just like toriyama intended.

This.

After learning people think Beerus talks about Movie 14 Goku not being able to beat Freeza saga Freeza, I just can't get surprised anymore even when people make up stuff like "Super Buu is talking about Gogeta". Dude didn't even make it to the manga, unfortunately.

[LowRyder2005]

Boos statement in the story has nothing to do with gogeta or comparing the dance to potara to begin with.

Boo states that fusion can't beat him and he's proven wrong when Vegito is formed. That's the significance of that interaction in the story. Not seeing how gogeta even factors into anything that was said when statements are read in context. Boo isn't calculating any "dance multiplier" in his head, not that fusion was stated to have a static multiplier anyway.

That and the author already stated that the only reason that he didn't use the dance against boo was because toei used it in movie 12.
So I'm not seeing the point here. Boo would have said his same little rant about fusion not being enough then get beat by gogeta just like toriyama intended.

This at least brings forth a question: if the multiplier wasn't fixed or the "range" of a Fusion's strength wasn't somewhat easy to factor in why would Goku be absolutely sure Gotenks would defeat Fat Buu? While it's possible Gogeta would turn out stronger anyways because of some extra boost that Gotenks didn't possess, it's clear at least the "range" of a Fusion could be discernible for anyone who knows how strong the candidates are. Then again, I guess Goku's knowledge of Fusion could very easily go deeper than Buutenks'.
Buutenks making actual estimations in his head is, however, extremely clear; the whole angle he believes himself completely invincible (and not simply leaps and bounds above the remaining fighters, Metamoran-fused or defused) the moment he absorbs Gotenks is at least debatable, given that even the comparatively stupider Super Buu was conscious of his limits.
Besides, Buutenks - who is only marginally weaker than Buuhan - also states that he thinks Fusion won't work, but that he will not take any risk fighting a Metamoran Goku + Gohan for no reason. Obviously, Vegeta was weaker than Gohan and Buu himself was stronger than Buutenks as Buuhan, so his "even if they fuse they can't scratch me" makes plenty of sense.

Buu being proven wrong about the fact that "no Fusion can beat him" doesn't make sense because it's never directly proven he couldn't beat a Metamoran Fusion of the adults when he had Gotenks' or Gohan's power. You already have the Daizenshuu #7 stating that Potaras make the two candidates overall stronger than the Metamor dance.

To use them, the two people who will merge simply have to each take one of the two earrings and put in on their left or right ear, respectively. Furthermore, after merging the power is greater than with Fusion. However, the two people will automatically merge as soon as the earrings are put on, and in principle will be unable to ever split up again, so caution is needed when handling them. The merged person will only split up when touched by the air inside Majin Buu's body. Also, while with Fusion the post-merged clothing is the native dress of the people of Planet Metamor, when merging with the Potara not only are the two people's bodies mixed together, but their clothing is as well. In addition, pathetically enough the East Kaioshin and his attendant Kibito merged together without knowing a thing about Potara fusion.

And, like I said above, you have absolutely no idea at what point Toriyama or how Toriyama wanted to use Gogeta, if it was before he had even conceived Buuhan at all. There's like a whole year in-between Bio-Broly and the release of Fusion Reborn. Even assuming the plot for Fusion Reborn was entirely devised after Gotenks' first appearance in the manga, Toriyama might have also envisioned Gogeta fighting Super Buu after Super Buu had defeated both Gohan and Gotenks, for all we know. This idea that we should all automatically assume he had the exact same plot in mind until he realized just three chapters before that he couldn't use Gogeta because there was an upcoming movie (Fusion Reborn is released = the time of Kid Buu's manga appearance = Gotenks vs. Super Buu in the anime) is naive.

[p-hyvo]

so, its said almost everywhere he is. vegeth without any transformation is stronger than ssj 3 Goku in base, while gogeta is tenth of times stronger than vegeta, so 20-90 times vegeta ( for me is 20, but i calculate vegetax90 for max power gogeta) anyway, thats the proove of the superiority of vegeth. want more? vegeth ssj is said to be strong as , if not even stronger, than a ssj 4. i said all i could and i hope that i've been useful for you

[Grimlock]

vegeth without any transformation is stronger than ssj 3 Goku in base, while gogeta is tenth of times stronger than vegeta. i said all i could and i hope that i've been useful for you

You weren't. You said Gogeta is "tenth times stronger than Vegeta". I'd like to know the source of this information.

[LowRyder2005]

vegeth without any transformation is stronger than ssj 3 Goku in base, while gogeta is tenth of times stronger than vegeta. i said all i could and i hope that i've been useful for you

You weren't. You said Gogeta is "tenth times stronger than Vegeta". I'd like to know the source of this information.

I guess he meant "tens of times"; in which case it should probably be clarified it's at least partly sourced. The GT perfect files state that SS4 Gogeta is "perhaps many tens of times stronger than a regular SS4" (Omega Shenron himself states he is "over ten times stronger than Syn or more").
It depends on how you take that "perhaps", or how you think SS4 relates to SS in the first place. All in all, yeah, there're always some gap to fill and some guesswork to do.

A good question at this point would be: who'd be stronger between a SS3 Goten and base Gotenks? Because base Vegito is technically supposed to be stronger than at least SS3 Goku, if not every SS3 in general.
Granted, Potaras are outright stated to yield greater power than the dance, but would base Gogeta be stronger than SS3 Goku/ Vegeta as well? Everything that tries to clarify the way Metamoran Fusion works talks about "tens of times", while it'd be kind of unnatural not to talk about "hundreds". Unless one wanted to argue the information in Vegito's bio pertains only to the anime, or that in the manga he would've been treated as far inferior to Buu (unlike the Potara Goku + Gohan).

[Juub]

And, like I said above, you have absolutely no idea at what point Toriyama or how Toriyama wanted to use Gogeta, if it was before he had even conceived Buuhan at all. There's like a whole year in-between Bio-Broly and the release of Fusion Reborn. Even assuming the plot for Fusion Reborn was entirely devised after Gotenks' first appearance in the manga, Toriyama might have also envisioned Gogeta fighting Super Buu after Super Buu had defeated both Gohan and Gotenks, for all we know. This idea that we should all automatically assume he had the exact same plot in mind until he realized just three chapters before that he couldn't use Gogeta because there was an upcoming movie (Fusion Reborn is released = the time of Kid Buu's manga appearance = Gotenks vs. Super Buu in the anime) is naive.

And why exactly would we assume that? All we know is that he intended to use Gogeta but opted to use Vegeto instead. Why assume he would have altered the story or make any significant changes? Especially when there was absolutely no need to. The issue was that the movie used the fusion dance plot, Toriyama didn't want to use it again. There's absolutely no indication or even reason to assume anything else would have been altered.

[LowRyder2005]

And, like I said above, you have absolutely no idea at what point Toriyama or how Toriyama wanted to use Gogeta, if it was before he had even conceived Buuhan at all. There's like a whole year in-between Bio-Broly and the release of Fusion Reborn. Even assuming the plot for Fusion Reborn was entirely devised after Gotenks' first appearance in the manga, Toriyama might have also envisioned Gogeta fighting Super Buu after Super Buu had defeated both Gohan and Gotenks, for all we know. This idea that we should all automatically assume he had the exact same plot in mind until he realized just three chapters before that he couldn't use Gogeta because there was an upcoming movie (Fusion Reborn is released = the time of Kid Buu's manga appearance = Gotenks vs. Super Buu in the anime) is naive.

And why exactly would we assume that? All we know is that he intended to use Gogeta but opted to use Vegeto instead. Why assume he would have altered the story or make any significant changes? Especially when there was absolutely no need to. The issue was that the movie used the fusion dance plot, Toriyama didn't want to use it again. There's absolutely no indication or even reason to assume anything else would have been altered.

You mean "why should we assume we shouldn't jump to conclusions"?
All Toriyama says is "I wanted to use Gogeta at some point, but since Toei wanted/had arranged to use it themselves I couldn't". Like I said maybe three or four times now, Fusion Reborn is released the week Kid Buu appears in the manga, the entire Vegito angle long wrapped up, so Toriyama is obviously referring to something that predates Fusion Reborn's release in the cinemas.

I mean, what exactly is the point supposed to be? The burden of proof rests on whoever makes the claim Toriyama wanted to have Gogeta fight or beat Buuhan and had the exact same story in mind, not on whoever is saying that Toriyama is not giving a timeframe and he may or may have not have changed more stuff along the way after he decided he woud not have Goku and Vegeta fuse. Had he stated "I had the story set until I realized I couldn't use Gogeta; I simply switched him for Vegito and kept everything else the same" you'd have a point, but as it stands right now this is literally nothing more than one hypothesis as random as any.

[Juub]

You mean "why should we assume we shouldn't jump to conclusions"?
All Toriyama says is "I wanted to use Gogeta at some point, but since Toei wanted/had arranged to use it themselves I couldn't". Like I said maybe three or four times now, Fusion Reborn is released the week Kid Buu appears in the manga, the entire Vegito angle long wrapped up, so Toriyama is obviously referring to something that predates Fusion Reborn's release in the cinemas.

I mean, what exactly is the point supposed to be? The burden of proof rests on whoever makes the claim Toriyama wanted to have Gogeta fight or beat Buuhan and had the exact same story in mind, not on whoever is saying that Toriyama is not giving a timeframe and he may or may have not have changed more stuff along the way after he decided he woud not have Goku and Vegeta fuse. Had he stated "I had the story until I realized I couldn't use Gogeta; I simply switched him for Vegito and kept everything else the same" you'd have a point, but as it stands right now this is literally nothing more than one hypothesis as random as any.

There is no indication he intended to alter the story. All we know is that he used Vegeto once and he said that he intended to use Gogeta instead. Any further assumption is just useless conjecture.

You can use what if this or that all you want but nothing supports those suppositions.

[LowRyder2005]

You mean "why should we assume we shouldn't jump to conclusions"?
All Toriyama says is "I wanted to use Gogeta at some point, but since Toei wanted/had arranged to use it themselves I couldn't". Like I said maybe three or four times now, Fusion Reborn is released the week Kid Buu appears in the manga, the entire Vegito angle long wrapped up, so Toriyama is obviously referring to something that predates Fusion Reborn's release in the cinemas.

I mean, what exactly is the point supposed to be? The burden of proof rests on whoever makes the claim Toriyama wanted to have Gogeta fight or beat Buuhan and had the exact same story in mind, not on whoever is saying that Toriyama is not giving a timeframe and he may or may have not have changed more stuff along the way after he decided he woud not have Goku and Vegeta fuse. Had he stated "I had the story until I realized I couldn't use Gogeta; I simply switched him for Vegito and kept everything else the same" you'd have a point, but as it stands right now this is literally nothing more than one hypothesis as random as any.

There is no indication he intended to alter the story. All we know is that he used Vegeto once and he said that he intended to use Gogeta instead. Any further assumption is just useless conjecture.

You can use what if this or that all you want but nothing supports those suppositions.

Except for the fact that I'm literally not the one making claims, you guys are. You claimed "I planned to use Gogeta at some point" can only mean "so the story would be the same if not for the fact he swapped Gogeta for Vegito". I'm saying "no, it simply means he planned to use Gogeta at some point". You are the one making the hypothesis here.

Ever read of what a false dichotomy is?

[Juub]

Except for the fact that I'm literally not the one making claims, you guys are. You claimed "I planned to use Gogeta at some point" can only mean "so the story would be the same if not for the fact he swapped Gogeta for Vegito". I'm saying "no, it simply means he planned to use Gogeta at some point". You are the one making the hypothesis here.

Ever read of what a false dichotomy is?

And what reason do I have to assume the story would be any different? The change is minor. It's just swapping the dance for the Potalas. It's also possible he intended to have Superman clash with Vegeto to reach maximum fan service but what indication of that is there?

[LowRyder2005]

Except for the fact that I'm literally not the one making claims, you guys are. You claimed "I planned to use Gogeta at some point" can only mean "so the story would be the same if not for the fact he swapped Gogeta for Vegito". I'm saying "no, it simply means he planned to use Gogeta at some point". You are the one making the hypothesis here.

Ever read of what a false dichotomy is?

And what reason do I have to assume the story would be any different? The change is minor. It's just swapping the dance for the Potalas. It's also possible he intended to have Superman clash with Vegeto to reach maximum fan service but what indication of that is there?

Trying to take my argument to the extreme much? The possibility he wanted to have Superman in his story is obviously very close to zero, the possibility he changed more stuff along the way isn't that close to zero. He also wanted to have Gohan as the hero at some point, if this soul-searching about Gogeta had happened around that time he might've had Gogeta job to Super Buu and then let Gohan save the day.

Besides, I'll stress again you were CLAIMING the story wouldn't be different. You keep taking issue with me while I'm not literally any argument and was just addressing the implications of yours. I have not against your hypothesis that Toriyama might wanted Gogeta to beat Buuhan and pull out some shenanigans to make Vegeta learn the dance in time after he had already set him on the collision course with Buu.
Still, your statement right now is like saying "I could have married my first girlfriend" could only be "there's little to no possibility my life would've been the exact same if not for the fact I'd have a different wife". Nope, it doesn't work like that. So yeah, you should assume your life could've been more different than just having another wife.

[Juub]

Trying to take my argument to the extreme much? The possibility he wanted to have Superman is obviously very close to zero, the possibility he changed more stuff along the way isn't that close to zero. He also wanted to have Gohan as the hero at some point, if this soul-searching about Gogeta had happened around that time he migh've had Gogeta job to Super Buu and then let Gohan save the day. I mean, I hope you understand at least at some level your entire train-of-thought isn't making sense.

Besides, I'll stress again you were CLAIMING the story wouldn't be different. Plus, claiming I (LOL) was making an argument when I was just addressing the inherent faults of yours. I have not against your hypothesis that Toriyama might wanted Gogeta to beat Buuhan and pull out some shenanigans to make Vegeta learn the dance in time after he had already set him on the collision course with Buu.

However, your statement right now is like saying "I could have married my first girlfriend" could only be "there's little to no possibility my life would've been the exact same if not for the fact I'd have a different wife". Nope, it doesn't work like that. So yeah, you should assume your life could've been more different than just having another wife.

You're free to believe the story would have been different. I simply stick to what we know and what we're told.

[LowRyder2005]

Trying to take my argument to the extreme much? The possibility he wanted to have Superman is obviously very close to zero, the possibility he changed more stuff along the way isn't that close to zero. He also wanted to have Gohan as the hero at some point, if this soul-searching about Gogeta had happened around that time he migh've had Gogeta job to Super Buu and then let Gohan save the day. I mean, I hope you understand at least at some level your entire train-of-thought isn't making sense.

Besides, I'll stress again you were CLAIMING the story wouldn't be different. Plus, claiming I (LOL) was making an argument when I was just addressing the inherent faults of yours. I have not against your hypothesis that Toriyama might wanted Gogeta to beat Buuhan and pull out some shenanigans to make Vegeta learn the dance in time after he had already set him on the collision course with Buu.

However, your statement right now is like saying "I could have married my first girlfriend" could only be "there's little to no possibility my life would've been the exact same if not for the fact I'd have a different wife". Nope, it doesn't work like that. So yeah, you should assume your life could've been more different than just having another wife.

You're free to believe the story would have been different. I simply stick to what we know and what we're told.

... Which is "Toriyama planned to use Gogeta"?
Because that's literally all you know and all you've been told. You personally believe it means Toriyama "wanted to switch Vegito for Gogeta, that he realized this a handful of chapters before (or, well, something like this?) and didn't change anything else of the plot", or at least that's what I'm being lead to deduce; I believe that, duh, "he simply planned to use Gogeta".

[Juub]

... Which is "Toriyama planned to use Gogeta"?
Because that's literally all you know and all you've been told. You personally believe it means Toriyama "wanted to switch Vegito for Gogeta, that he realized this a handful of chapters before (or, well, something like this?) and didn't change anything else of the plot", or at least that's what I'm being lead to deduce; I believe that, duh, "he simply planned to use Gogeta".

He didn't simply plan to use Gogeta. He planned to use him but used Vegeto instead.

[LowRyder2005]

... Which is "Toriyama planned to use Gogeta"?
Because that's literally all you know and all you've been told. You personally believe it means Toriyama "wanted to switch Vegito for Gogeta, that he realized this a handful of chapters before (or, well, something like this?) and didn't change anything else of the plot", or at least that's what I'm being lead to deduce; I believe that, duh, "he simply planned to use Gogeta".

He didn't simply plan to use Gogeta. He planned to use him but used Vegeto instead.

... And how does that equate "this means he could not change anything else"? It's been, what, twelve posts and you still are not realizing it doesn't make a lick of sense to talk about some foreclosure effect just because he only stated he planned to use Gogeta and decided to switch him for Vegito?

[Juub]

... And how does that equate "this means he could not change anything else"? It's been twelve posts and you still are not realizing it doesn't make sense to talk about some foreclosure effect just because he planned to use Gogeta and deciding to switch him for Vegito?

Again I'm sticking with what we're being told. There is one instance in the entire manga where Vegeto was used. Toriyama said he had planned on using Gogeta. Did he say he wanted to use him for that specific scene? No but we got no further information and connecting the dots lead us to that obvious conclusion. Anything else is conjecture.

Is it possible he had planned on an entirely different continuity? Absolutely. Do I have any indication of that? No. Does swapping Gogeta for Vegeto make a iota of difference in the end? No, once again.

[LowRyder2005]

... And how does that equate "this means he could not change anything else"? It's been twelve posts and you still are not realizing it doesn't make sense to talk about some foreclosure effect just because he planned to use Gogeta and deciding to switch him for Vegito?

Again I'm sticking with what we're being told. There is one instance in the entire manga where Vegeto was used. Toriyama said he had planned on using Gogeta. Did he say he wanted to use him for that specific scene? No but we got no further information and connecting the dots lead us to that obvious conclusion. Anything else is conjecture.

Is it possible he had planned on an entirely different continuity? Absolutely. Do I have any indication of that? No. Does swapping Gogeta for Vegeto makes a iota of difference in the end? No, once again.

All this talk just to make you get the idea it goes both ways: a conjecture is also thinking there cannot be another change.
Besides, Gogeta being switched for Vegito actually does make things different -- possibly appreciably so, in theory. Vegeta doesn't know the dance; which is also the main reason I think the "Gogeta/Vegito" idea was designed before the story started veering towards the climax with Gotenks being absorbed by Buu.

Then again, neat! you are finally admitting it's entirely possible he planned an entirely different continuity. Okay, so can I, dunno, correct those who state that "it's obvious he hadn't another continuity in mind"? I mean, because that's exactly what this exchange was all about in the last page, all the way up to the very first post in it.

[Juub]

All this talk just to make you get the idea it goes both ways: a conjecture is also thinking there cannot be another change.
Besides, Gogeta being switched for Vegito actually does make things different -- possibly appreciably so, in theory. Vegeta doesn't know the dance; which is also the main reason I think the "Gogeta/Vegito" idea was designed before the story started veering towards the climax with Gotenks being absorbed by Buu.

Then again, neat! you are finally admitting it's entirely possible he planned an entirely different continuity. Okay, so can I, dunno, correct those who state that "it's obvious he hadn't another continuity in mind"? I mean, because that's exactly what this exchange was all about in the last page, all the way up to the very first post in it.

Vegeta knows the dance actually. That's why he refused to do it when Goku brought up the idea. He thought it was too silly.

[LowRyder2005]

All this talk just to make you get the idea it goes both ways: a conjecture is also thinking there cannot be another change.
Besides, Gogeta being switched for Vegito actually does make things different -- possibly appreciably so, in theory. Vegeta doesn't know the dance; which is also the main reason I think the "Gogeta/Vegito" idea was designed before the story started veering towards the climax with Gotenks being absorbed by Buu.

Then again, neat! you are finally admitting it's entirely possible he planned an entirely different continuity. Okay, so can I, dunno, correct those who state that "it's obvious he hadn't another continuity in mind"? I mean, because that's exactly what this exchange was all about in the last page, all the way up to the very first post in it.

Vegeta knows the dance actually. That's why he refused to do it when Goku brought up the idea. He thought it was too silly.

I meant "know" as "have the ability to perform". Vegeta has seen the dance, but it looks fairly improbable he has also practiced the steps enough (even less if he found it silly, he should've really just seen it): Goku said in reference to the kids mastering it that it took him one week to get it right and this obviously happened after he had seen it some times. In short, I think it somewhat hard to believe Vegeta would have been ready to fuse on spot.

Of course this doesn't mean Toriyama couldn't have also pulled a Fusion Reborn himself, in that wouldn't really have cared about that or made up an excuse on the fly. Much of the Buu arc follows that principle, after all.