Vegetto vs Gogeta

[LowRyder2005]

Vegeto standing right in front of Buuhan was already stronger. Far far stronger. Buuhan refuses to admit it. What does that tell you? That he thought HIS own power was unbeatable. It makes him completely unreliable because he readily refused to admit Vegeto was stronger so again, what makes you think he would think Gogeta would even be a threat? Whereas Super Buu was kinda stupid he wasn't reckless. Buuhan got so powerful he thought he was invincible. I mean dude, he got kicked in the face and all he said was that he'd make Vegeto suffer. So how am I supposed to rely on him?

Uh, you are just repeating yourself. You think it's hubris, another guy here made an argument about how it would make sense if he simply doesn't think Vegito can actually be that strong. I personally think it's a mixture of the latter and Super Vegito not showing off his full might right off the bat; he's basically suppressed throughout the entire fight, after all.
Now, after Buu gets beaten up over and over again by Super Vegito, you could obviously make a realistic case about it being some sort of histerical denial if he's still quibbling about being the strongest in the universe. Before, though, it's your speculation and nothing more; Buu is in control of everything, I have no reason to automatically assume he's too drunk with power or something when his predictions are the easiest to fit, and like I said I prefer to follow what the manga actually states.

Yeah, Super Buu wasn't that stupid. And Buuhan, who has the brains of Piccolo and/or Gohan, obviously acts much stupider when everything is fine, dandy and going according to his plan.

As for the interview he was talking about Fusion Reborn which took the plot point of fusion(Goku and Vegeta fusing) so he came up with the Potalas instead of them using the fusion like in the movie. The only difference is the way they fused. There's nothing indicating the outcome would have been different.

... Seriously, you ought to re-read the post above. Your reasoning simply doesn't make a lick of sense since there's no timeframe given at all. Toriyama receiving some news Toei wanted to use "Gogeta" could've happened when Toriyama was having Majin Vegeta vs. Goku and thinking about how some later points of the arc could turn out for all you know.

[Juub]

Vegeto standing right in front of Buuhan was already stronger. Far far stronger. Buuhan refuses to admit it. What does that tell you? That he thought HIS own power was unbeatable. It makes him completely unreliable because he readily refused to admit Vegeto was stronger so again, what makes you think he would think Gogeta would even be a threat? Whereas Super Buu was kinda stupid he wasn't reckless. Buuhan got so powerful he thought he was invincible. I mean dude, he got kicked in the face and all he said was that he'd make Vegeto suffer. So how am I supposed to rely on him?

Uh, you are just repeating yourself. You think it's hubris, another guy here made an argument about how it would make sense if he simply doesn't think Vegito is actually that strong; after Buu gets beaten up you can obviously make a case about it being some sort of histerical denial. Before it's your baseless speculation; Buu is in control of everything, I have no reason to think he's too drunk with power or something, and like I said I prefer to follow what the manga actually states.

Yeah, Super Buu wasn't that stupid. And Buuhan, who has the brains of Piccolo and/or Gohan, obviously acts much stupider when everything is fine, dandy and going according to his plan.

As for the interview he was talking about Fusion Reborn which took the plot point of fusion(Goku and Vegeta fusing) so he came up with the Potalas instead of them using the fusion like in the movie. The only difference is the way they fused. There's nothing indicating the outcome would have been different.

How is it baseless assumption lol? Buu was actively trying to go toe to toe with Vegeto because he thought he could win and was stronger. So huh he's supposed to believe an hypothetical Gogeta would be stronger? Yeah makes a lot of sense.

The second part is even worse. Buu hadn't even gotten beaten up when he said he would torture Vegeto. He had just gotten kicked in the face once and was still very confident.

It's not about stupidity. It's about arrogance. Super Buu after absorbing Gotenks said he was the most powerful Majin ever and reached a whole new level of overconfidence. He was more cruel, eloquent and arrogant than he previously was. We're basically taking statements from a braggart with delusion of grandeur as fact. Nothing wrong with that right?

... Seriously, you ought to re-read the post above. Your reasoning simply doesn't make a lick of sense since there's no timeframe given at all. It could've happened when Toriyama was having Majin Vegeta vs. Goku for all you know.

The full quotes give us a general idea though:

Read the full interview:

Had you drawn them from the beginning, thinking that you’d use them as a fusion item?

-No, not at all. They were just for decoration.

So they were just a fortuitous coincidence, then.

-I’m always crossing perilous bridges like that. (laughs) But, just as I’ve been driven into a corner, it’s like my brain waves go taut, and some sort of idea bubbles up. Also, I’m good at forcing things to stretch. (laughs)

That’s amazing.

-No, it really isn’t. Even I’m always in suspense. In the previous chapter, I’ve already written “something incredible is going to happen”, so I think, “I have no choice but to do something incredible.” It’s so painful. (laughs)

Toriyama said he was "driven into a corner" and then said he was always in suspense and referenced his habit of saying something amazing was going to happen in the next chapter. He thought of the Potalas as fusion material shortly before Vegeto showed up and way after the Majin Vegeta vs Goku fight. It's not something he had planned that far ahead. Otherwise the whole context of the interview goes down the toilet.

For the record I do think Vegeto is stronger albeit only slightly. I sure as hell won't take Buuhan's opinion for gospel.

[LowRyder2005]

How is it baseless assumption lol? Buu was actively trying to go toe to toe with Vegeto because he thought he could win and was stronger. So huh he's supposed to believe an hypothetical Gogeta would be stronger? Yeah makes a lot of sense.

It's not about stupidity. It's about arrogance. Super Buu after absorbing Gotenks said he was the most powerful Majin ever and reached a whole new level of overconfidence. He was more cruel, eloquent and arrogant than he previously was. We're basically taking statements from a braggart with delusion of grandeur as fact. Nothing wrong with that right?

What are you even trying to say? Buuhan attacks Vegito because he thinks Vegito = Metamoran Fusion = Gogeta, and he believes/knows he's above it. Period. When Vegito starts to fight, show off his power and he gets the confirmation he's outmatched, he's in denial (In fact, after Vegito launches his first attack in a few seconds, you immediately have a panel of Buu's face sweating the proverbial bullets), but even if he was somewhat second-guessing himself it'd be understandable because Vegito's power creep is absurd by any standard. can easily be sheer disbelief: if you saw me lifting a truck would you go "oh, okay" or state "no, this can't be" half a dozens times? It really doesn't get any more difficult than that, as far as I'm concerned.

Super Buu + Gotenks was the strongest Majin, so I don't see your point. Your personal character analysis of Majin Buu is again not exactly enough to convince me that SS Gogeta would have clobbered Buuhan.

As for the interview you keep presenting, it doesn't explicitly say that switching from Gogeta to Potaras was a last minute decision right before the chapter was finished (this is also, well... mainly because from the revelation Potaras can be used for Fusion and Vegito, everything happens over the course of some *weeks* and three chapters).
The exchange almost literally goes "oh, Potaras, that was fortuitous! -> "I'm always taking lots of risks when I write and *possibly changing argument* I know how to stretch things when needed -> *he talks in general about his thought process and how he changes things right before one chapter or the other*".

[Juub]

What are you even trying to say? Buuhan attacks Vegito because he thinks Vegito = Metamoran Fusion, and he knows he's above it. Period. When Vegito starts to fight, show off his power and he gets the confirmation he's seriously, he's immediately outmatched, but his denial can easily be disbelief.
If you saw me lifting a truck would you go "oh, okay" or state "no, this can't be"? It really doesn't get any more difficult than that.

And I'm the one making baseless assumption. We're now supposed to assume his denial is disbelief. Great.

Buu can sense Ki dude. The moment Vegeto had fused he should have known something was up. Super Buu felt Gohan's Ki from far away and the moment he did, he devised a plan to take him down. Vegeto powers up in front of Buuhan. Buuhan still thinks he can win. Vegeto easily repels his attack. Kicks him in the face. Buuhan still thinks he can win. Clearly, something has changed in his mind state. When he was Super Buu he had no problem an individual far away was superior to him(even admitted). When he was Buuhan he simply refused to admit it.

Super Buu + Gotenks was the strongest Majin, so I don't see your point. Your personal character analysis of Majin Buu is again irrelavant to convince me of anything.

The point was simply to show his psych had changed. He was far smarter than Super Buu but also far more reckless and arrogant. Super Buu could admit inferiority. Buutenks and Buuhan clearly could not. Meaning their opinion on the power of anyone is meaningless.

Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”


That's a guy who believes no matter what happens he can't be beaten.

As for the interview you keep presenting, doesn't explicitly say that switching to Potaras was a last minute decision. The exchange almost literally goes "oh, that was fortuitous! -> "I'm always taking lots of risks when I write [possibly changing argument] and I know how to stretch things when needed -> *he talks in general about his thought process*".

He references being driven into a corner and then says he has a habit of thinking things on the spot to get himself out of there. What do you think that even means? That he thought of the Potalas months before he needed them? Or that he was planning on using Gogeta but whoopsie, movie 12 upstaged him and he came up with something to get himself out of there?

There's also the fact we know he came up with the Potalas after Gotenks was introduced, otherwise he wouldn't have used Gotenks either. Gotenks came about very late in Buu Saga.

[LowRyder2005]

What are you even trying to say? Buuhan attacks Vegito because he thinks Vegito = Metamoran Fusion, and he knows he's above it. Period. When Vegito starts to fight, show off his power and he gets the confirmation he's seriously, he's immediately outmatched, but his denial can easily be disbelief.
If you saw me lifting a truck would you go "oh, okay" or state "no, this can't be"? It really doesn't get any more difficult than that.

And I'm the one making baseless assumption. We're now supposed to assume his denial is disbelief. Great.

Buu can sense Ki dude. The moment Vegeto had fused he should have known something was up. Super Buu felt Gohan's Ki from far away and the moment he did, he devised a plan to take him down. Vegeto powers up in front of Buuhan. Buuhan still thinks he can win. Vegeto easily repels his attack. Kicks him in the face. Buuhan still thinks he can win. Clearly, something has changed in his mind state. When he was Super Buu he had no problem an individual far away was superior to him(even admitted). When he was Buuhan he simply refused to admit it.

Super Buu + Gotenks was the strongest Majin, so I don't see your point. Your personal character analysis of Majin Buu is again irrelavant to convince me of anything.

The point was simply to show his psych had changed. He was far smarter than Super Buu but also far more reckless and arrogant. Super Buu could admit inferiority. Buutenks and Buuhan clearly could not.

As for the interview you keep presenting, doesn't explicitly say that switching to Potaras was a last minute decision. The exchange almost literally goes "oh, that was fortuitous! -> "I'm always taking lots of risks when I write [possibly changing argument] and I know how to stretch things when needed -> *he talks in general about his thought process*".

He references being driven into a corner and then says he has a habit of thinking things on the spot to get himself out of there. What do you think that even means? That he thought of the Potalas months before he needed them? Or that he was planning on using Gogeta but whoopsie, movie 12 upstaged him and he came up with something to get himself out of there.

There's also the fact we know he came up with the Potalas after Gotenks was introduced, otherwise he wouldn't have used Gotenks either. Gotenks came about very late in Buu Saga.

*sigh* If you want to go that way, Vegito can be suppressed, "dude", at least up until the moment he attacks Buuhan -- and Buuhan realizes he's outmatched. By the way, I'm not claiming Buuhan isn't in some sort of denial after. The panels do imply Vegito scared him off with the first attack.
Like I said, I have no interest in your personal character study; you literally singled me out because you thought the idea was nonsense and you have to add a single actual fact to the table. In turn, I'm just going off the characters' statements when nothing in the story implies the reader is supposed to count them off. Your argument is just another version of the "Goku lied, he could be lying at any time".

The interview: what do I think it means? What I said above, that it doesn't prove jack. You're simply trying to spoon-feed me your thoughts about Toriyama's train-of-thought being the only possible one. What he says later can easily be him straying further from the topic of Potaras.

I asked for a proof for your claim that Toriyama wanted to pit "Gohan-Buu vs. Gogeta" and you keep feeding me second-hand interpretations of what you think Toriyama said or wanted to do at this or that point when he wrote the manga. It's silly, not cool and you're literally just wasting my time here. This entire exchange could go in the Rumor Guide, in fact.

[Juub]

*sigh* If you want to go that way, Vegito can be suppressed, "dude", at least up until the moment he attacks Buuhan -- and Buuhan realizes he's outmatched. By the way, I'm not claiming Buuhan isn't in some sort of denial after. The panels do imply Vegito scared him off from the first attack. After he realizes he'd have power superior to 50 Super Saiyan 3s in base - following the guidebook's report on Vegito's power - why does Buuhan have to be a bombastic dolt when second-guessing could be natural that something is not right?

And you have evidence Vegeto was suppressing himself? Furthermore, Vegeto's objective was to humiliate Buu to make him desperate and absorb him. Also why would he suppress himself anyway? Who does that? You also believed Vegeta when he said he was a Super Saiyan against Frieza?

Also when Majin Buu felt Vegeta's presence and said they still wouldn't beat him, he was feeling Base Vegeta's presence. Kinda puts a dent into your argument of Buuhan>SSJ3 Gogeta no?

The interview: what do I think it means? What I said above, that it doesn't prove jack. You're simply trying to spoon-feed me your thoughts about Toriyama's train-of-thought being the only possible one. What he says later can easily be him straying further from the topic of Potaras.

I asked for a proof for your claim that Toriyama wanted to pit "Gohan-Buu vs. Gogeta" and you keep feeding me second-hand interpretations of what you think Toriyama said or wanted to do at this or that point when he wrote the manga. It's silly, not cool and you're literally just wasting my time here.
This entire exchange could go in the Rumor Guide, in fact.

So you're conceding? Because you haven't addressed what I said. It's after Gotenks showed up. That much is clear. Otherwise he wouldn't have used Gotenks because he is also a fusion. He came up with the Potalas to get himself out of a corner. There is literally only one time it could have happened and that's shortly before the Vegeto vs Majin Buu fight. You're wrong. Concede or address the argument. Don't be arrogant.

[LowRyder2005]

*sigh* If you want to go that way, Vegito can be suppressed, "dude", at least up until the moment he attacks Buuhan -- and Buuhan realizes he's outmatched. By the way, I'm not claiming Buuhan isn't in some sort of denial after. The panels do imply Vegito scared him off from the first attack. After he realizes he'd have power superior to 50 Super Saiyan 3s in base - following the guidebook's report on Vegito's power - why does Buuhan have to be a bombastic dolt when second-guessing could be natural that something is not right?

And you have evidence Vegeto was suppressing himself? Furthermore, Vegeto's objective was to humiliate Buu to make him desperate and absorb him. Also why would he suppress himself anyway? Who does that?

The interview: what do I think it means? What I said above, that it doesn't prove jack. You're simply trying to spoon-feed me your thoughts about Toriyama's train-of-thought being the only possible one. What he says later can easily be him straying further from the topic of Potaras.

I asked for a proof for your claim that Toriyama wanted to pit "Gohan-Buu vs. Gogeta" and you keep feeding me second-hand interpretations of what you think Toriyama said or wanted to do at this or that point when he wrote the manga. It's silly, not cool and you're literally just wasting my time here.
This entire exchange could go in the Rumor Guide, in fact.

So you're conceding? Because you haven't addressed what I said. It's after Gotenks showed up. That much is clear. Otherwise he wouldn't have used Gotenks because he is also a fusion. He came up with the Potalas to get himself out of a corner. There is literally only one time it could have happened and that's shortly before the Vegeto vs Majin Buu fight. You're wrong. Concede or address the argument. Don't be arrogant.

I don't need to prove it: it's self-demonstrating. Vegito is already "suppressing" himself to a degree, since he's trying his hardest not to kill Buuhan. Do you have actual evidence Buuhan is "drunk with power AND totally wrong" like you have been claiming when he says he's superior to a hypothetical Gogeta?

I already addressed your umpteenth void argument above with the:

you keep feeding me second-hand interpretations of what you think Toriyama said or wanted to do at this or that point when he wrote the manga

But I'm failing to realize what exactly would change with the pre-after Gotenks. I used Majin Vegeta vs. Goku as some first, random example and my claim was that there's the possibility he would've used Gogeta to ultimately beat Super Buu. Unless you can prove it's after Buutenks or Buuhan like I said in the first post of this overall useless exchange, you aren't exactly telling me anything.

I think the only "arrogance" here is butting in with a post that would actually need an "in my humble opinion" every phrase or so, which applies to anything of your (virtually irrelevant) contributions to the thread and/or your lack of understanding on what having a discussion on equal terms entails to: you've started by implying how it was silly because your intimately personal interpretation of how Buu acted and how his personality changed after absorbing Gotenks and Gohan was right. And also terminating this mockery with an even more silly, contextually, "concede, you're wrong" when all you've done is dishing out personal opinions and personal interpretations.

[Juub]

I don't need to prove it: it's self-demonstrating. Vegito is already "suppressing" himself to a degree, since he's trying his hardest not to kill Buuhan. Do you have actual evidence Buuhan is "drunk with power" like you have been claiming?

Vegeto was pulling his punches. Not suppressing himself. He was easily hurting Majin Buu. And you were the one talking about baseless assumptions? Even "suppressed" Vegeto was far stronger than Buuhan. The moment Vegeto kicked him in his face he should have known he didn't stand a chance. He repeatedly tried to assault him to no avail. Unless you're telling me Vegeto turned SSJ, suppressed himself, powered up, kicked Buu, suppressed himself again?

Evidence that he was drunk with power? Huh is this quote enough?:

Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

Oh wait I think we can end this debate once and for all. After Goku threw the Potala at Gohan and Buu knew they were planning to fuse, he still thought they wouldn't be enough to beat him.

But I'm failing to realize what exactly would change with the pre-after Gotenks. I used Majin Vegeta vs. Goku as some first example and my claim was that there's the possibility he would've used Gogeta to ultimately beat Super Buu. Unless you can prove it's after Buutenks or Buuhan, you aren't exactly telling me anything.

And that would be even more baseless speculation on your part. You'd literally be assuming he was planning on a completely different ending and outcome and you haven't got a shred of evidence for that. It also changes nothing on his plan about having Gogeta do whatever Vegeto did. WHatever he planned for Gogeta was done by Vegeto because the movie upstaged him. No need to go further than that. The backed into a corner was just use to strengthen my argument.

Do you know Occam's Razor?

Apologies if my interjection came off as arrogant.

Edit: Also, Majin Buu was speculating on the fusion of Goku and a Base Vegeta. Not SSJ2 Vegeta.

[LowRyder2005]

Vegeto was pulling his punches. Not suppressing himself. He was easily hurting Majin Buu. And you were the one talking about baseless assumptions? Even "suppressed" Vegeto was far stronger than Buuhan. The moment Vegeto kicked him in his face he should have known he didn't stand a chance. He repeatedly tried to assault him to no avail. Unless you're telling me Vegeto turned, SSJ, suppressed himself, powered up, kicked Buu, suppressed himself again?

For crying out loud, you are making baseless assumptions in the very post above. Do you prefer "he's not fighting seriously"? Besides, I already said three times that after the very first two pages, after the very first attack of Vegito, I think he's in denial (see panel). At this point you either lack reading comprehension or you're trying to go full troll mode on me.
Guess what, from now on, instead of answering your headcanon/intepretations arrogantly laid out as facts, I'll just underline them in red.

Evidence that he was drunk with power? Huh is this quote enough?:

Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

Nope, silly. I wanted something proving that "his drunkness with power makes him absolutely wrong when he says he would manhandle Gogeta".

And that would be even more baseless speculation on your part. You'd literally be assuming he was planning on a completely different ending and outcome and you haven't got a shred of evidence for that.It also changes nothing on his plan about having Gogeta do whatever Vegeto did. WHatever he planned for Gogeta was done by Vegeto because the movie upstaged him. No need to go further than that. The backed into a corner was just use to strengthen my argument. At this point you're simply being a brick wall.

Oh, Jesus. All I said "how do you know he didn't want to make Gogeta vs. Super Buu" and there you go ranting. Everything you yourself said is baseless.
I fail to see how it would be a problem, since you're already following the assumptions he can change stuff from one chapter to another or something? Maybe it's slightly more improbable he would change a lot of things together? Why should I care? I was simply addressing your ridiculous argument.

Also, assumptions.

Do you know Occam's Razor?

Enough to know the simplest solution here is that you are probably trolling. But don't worry, I'm considering having a mod look into this. I have done my share humoring you and trying to broaden your horizons on explanations you hand't thought of.
I think your intellectual dishonesty is showing just enough to make them interested in taking a second look at how this exchange evolved.

By the way, if I need Occam's Razor you probably need to re-read the basics of the Aristotelian logic on "universal" and "particular" propositions. Might be cool. Might be enough not to make you lash out at others or give you the means of logical self-criticalness.

[Juub]

Vegeto was pulling his punches. Not suppressing himself. He was easily hurting Majin Buu. And you were the one talking about baseless assumptions? Even "suppressed" Vegeto was far stronger than Buuhan. The moment Vegeto kicked him in his face he should have known he didn't stand a chance. He repeatedly tried to assault him to no avail. Unless you're telling me Vegeto turned, SSJ, suppressed himself, powered up, kicked Buu, suppressed himself again?

For crying out loud, you are making baseless assumptions in the very post above. Do you prefer "he's not fighting seriously"? Besides, I already said three times that after the very first two pages, after the very first attack of Vegito, I think he's in denial (see panel). At this point you either lack reading comprehension or you're trying to go full troll mode on me.
Guess what, from now on, instead of answering your headcanon/intepretations arrogantly laid out as facts, I'll just underline them in red.

Evidence that he was drunk with power? Huh is this quote enough?:

Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

Nope, silly. I wanted something proving that "his drunkness with power makes him absolutely wrong when he says he would manhandle Gogeta".

And that would be even more baseless speculation on your part. You'd literally be assuming he was planning on a completely different ending and outcome and you haven't got a shred of evidence for that.It also changes nothing on his plan about having Gogeta do whatever Vegeto did. WHatever he planned for Gogeta was done by Vegeto because the movie upstaged him. No need to go further than that. The backed into a corner was just use to strengthen my argument. At this point you're simply being a brick wall.

Oh, Jesus. All I said "how do you know he didn't want to make Gogeta vs. Super Buu" and there you go ranting. Everything you yourself said is baseless.
I fail to see how it would be a problem, since you're already following the assumptions he can change stuff from one chapter to another or something? Maybe it's slightly more improbable he would change a lot of things together? Why should I care? I was simply addressing your ridiculous argument.

Also, assumptions.

Do you know Occam's Razor?

Enough to know the simplest solution here is that you are probably trolling. But don't worry, I'll have a mod look into this. I have done my share humoring you and trying to broaden your horizons on explanations you hand't thought of.
I think your intellectual dishonesty is showing just enough to make them interested in taking a second look at how this exchange evolved.

By the way, if I need Occam's Razor you probably need to re-read the basics of the Aristotelian logic on "universal" and "particular" propositions. Might be cool.

Oh wait I think we can end this debate once and for all. After Goku threw the Potala at Gohan and Buu knew they were planning to fuse, he still thought they wouldn't be enough to beat him. Elder Kaioshon on the other hand thought a fusion of Goku and Gohan wouldn't even need to transform to beat that Majin Buu.

Also Buu was calculating the power of Base Vegeta in the fusion. Not SSJ2 Vegeta.

[LowRyder2005]

Vegeto was pulling his punches. Not suppressing himself. He was easily hurting Majin Buu. And you were the one talking about baseless assumptions? Even "suppressed" Vegeto was far stronger than Buuhan. The moment Vegeto kicked him in his face he should have known he didn't stand a chance. He repeatedly tried to assault him to no avail. Unless you're telling me Vegeto turned, SSJ, suppressed himself, powered up, kicked Buu, suppressed himself again?

For crying out loud, you are making baseless assumptions in the very post above. Do you prefer "he's not fighting seriously"? Besides, I already said three times that after the very first two pages, after the very first attack of Vegito, I think he's in denial (see panel). At this point you either lack reading comprehension or you're trying to go full troll mode on me.
Guess what, from now on, instead of answering your headcanon/intepretations arrogantly laid out as facts, I'll just underline them in red.

Evidence that he was drunk with power? Huh is this quote enough?:

Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

Nope, silly. I wanted something proving that "his drunkness with power makes him absolutely wrong when he says he would manhandle Gogeta".

And that would be even more baseless speculation on your part. You'd literally be assuming he was planning on a completely different ending and outcome and you haven't got a shred of evidence for that.It also changes nothing on his plan about having Gogeta do whatever Vegeto did. WHatever he planned for Gogeta was done by Vegeto because the movie upstaged him. No need to go further than that. The backed into a corner was just use to strengthen my argument. At this point you're simply being a brick wall.

Oh, Jesus. All I said "how do you know he didn't want to make Gogeta vs. Super Buu" and there you go ranting. Everything you yourself said is baseless.
I fail to see how it would be a problem, since you're already following the assumptions he can change stuff from one chapter to another or something? Maybe it's slightly more improbable he would change a lot of things together? Why should I care? I was simply addressing your ridiculous argument.

Also, assumptions.

Do you know Occam's Razor?

Enough to know the simplest solution here is that you are probably trolling. But don't worry, I'll have a mod look into this. I have done my share humoring you and trying to broaden your horizons on explanations you hand't thought of.
I think your intellectual dishonesty is showing just enough to make them interested in taking a second look at how this exchange evolved.

By the way, if I need Occam's Razor you probably need to re-read the basics of the Aristotelian logic on "universal" and "particular" propositions. Might be cool.

Oh wait I think we can end this debate once and for all. After Goku threw the Potala at Gohan and Buu knew they were planning to fuse, he still thought they wouldn't be enough to beat him.

Also Buu was calculating the power of Base Vegeta in the fusion. Not SSJ2 Vegeta.

... Number one: the Metamoran Fusion of Goku and Gohan may not that far off from Gohan himself, it depends on what kind of gap you think there is between Gohan and Goku and how do you think Fusion works in general in relation to the "matching" levels part. The Potara fusion would certainly defeat Buutenks even without Super Saiyan according to Rou.

Number two: the second one is at best a possibility. There's also the possibility he recognized Vegeta's ki and that he's considering they may fuse and power-up to SS3 like Goku. Fusee also need to be of similar build and power, and I don't see why he could've left out the possibility the person in question may have been about as strong as Goku in general -- especially since he says thay can't beat him "no matter what they do (according to what he believes they can do)".
Or he may thought that anyone fusing with Goku could transform to Super Saiyan 3 because that's what would have happened to any Fusion which included SS3 Goku; we have no idea how it's supposed to work. Maybe a human-Saiyan fusion could also go Super Saiyan 3 if the original Saiyan could.

[Juub]

... Number one: the Metamoran Fusion of Goku and Gohan may not that far off from Gohan himself, it depends on what kind of gap you think there is between Gohan and Goku. The Potara fusion would certainly defeat Buutenks even without Super Saiyan.

It would be impossible for a fusion of Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan to be weaker than that Buu who was not even twice as strong as Gohan.

Number two: the second one is at best a possibility. There's also the possibility he recognized Vegeta's ki and that he's considering they may fuse and power-up to SS3 like Goku. Fusee also need to be of similar build and power, and I don't see why he could've thought the person in question may have been about as strong as Goku in general.
Or he may thought that anyone fusing with Goku could transform to Super Saiyan 3 because that's what would have happened to any Fusion which included SS3 Goku; we have no idea how it's supposed to work. Maybe a human-Saiyan fusion could also go Super Saiyan 3 if the original Saiyan could.

He didn't recognize Vegeta's Ki. He just knew it was a great Ki.

Even if he was calculating the fact the fusion could turn SSJ3 after the union, he would only factor the powers of Base Vegeta+SSJ3 Goku which would probably even lower than a fusion of SSJ Goku+SSJ Vegeta.

Honestly Buu's opinion is practically worthless on the power of Gogeta. His statements lack credibility and his arrogance doesn't help him. No matter what was thrown at him he never even acknowledged the possibility he could be defeated.

[LowRyder2005]

It would be impossible for a fusion of Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan to be weaker than that Buu who was not even twice as strong as Gohan.

He didn't recognize Vegeta's Ki. He just knew it was a great Ki.

Even if he was calculating the fact the fusion could turn SSJ3 after the union, he would only factor the powers of Base Vegeta+SSJ3 Goku which would probably even lower than a fusion of SSJ Goku+SSJ Vegeta.

Honestly Buu's opinion is practically worthless on the power of Gogeta. His statements lack credibility and his arrogance doesn't help him. No matter what was thrown at him he never even acknowledged the possibility he could be defeated.

Yeah, I guess I could just underline the "assumptions" here.

[Juub]

He didn't recognize Vegeta's Ki. He just knew it was a great Ki.

Even if he was calculating the fact the fusion could turn SSJ3 after the union, he would only factor the powers of Base Vegeta+SSJ3 Goku which would probably even lower than a fusion of SSJ Goku+SSJ Vegeta.

Honestly Buu's opinion is practically worthless on the power of Gogeta. His statements lack credibility and his arrogance doesn't help him. No matter what was thrown at him he never even acknowledged the possibility he could be defeated.

Yeah, I guess I could just underline the "assumptions" here.

Assumptions? This has turned into a joke honestly.

FIrst of you're the one speculating he could have recognized Vegeta's Ki when he simply said there was a great Ki. He had no idea who it was. There was no indication he knew who it was. The only time he fought Vegeta is when he was Fat Buu and at that time, he couldn't sense Ki.

Second, Buu said there were no limits to his power, if that isn't being drunk with power then I don't know what it is.

Third SSJ3 Gotenks managed to fight pretty evenly with Buu from a fusion of Goten and Trunks. Buutenks isn't even twice as strong as Buuhan considering none of Super Buu or Gotenks are as strong as Gohan. A fusion of SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan wouldn't even surpass that? Really? You're saying Gotenks fusing with Goku wouldn't even use a 2x power increase? Hell, Goku was even counting on beating Buu with that fusion. Elder Kaioshin also said the problem was simply that Buu wouldn't let them fuse, not that it wouldn't be powerful enough.

[LowRyder2005]

He didn't recognize Vegeta's Ki. He just knew it was a great Ki.

Even if he was calculating the fact the fusion could turn SSJ3 after the union, he would only factor the powers of Base Vegeta+SSJ3 Goku which would probably even lower than a fusion of SSJ Goku+SSJ Vegeta.

Honestly Buu's opinion is practically worthless on the power of Gogeta. His statements lack credibility and his arrogance doesn't help him. No matter what was thrown at him he never even acknowledged the possibility he could be defeated.

Yeah, I guess I could just underline the "assumptions" here.

Assumptions? This has turned into a joke honestly.

FIrst of you're the one speculating he could have recognized Vegeta's Ki when he simply said there was a great Ki. He had no idea who it was. There was no indication he knew who it was. The only time he fought Vegeta is when he was Fat Buu and at that time, he couldn't sense Ki.

Second, Buu said there were no limits to his power, if that isn't being drunk with power then I don't know what it is.

Third SSJ3 Gotenks managed to fight pretty evenly with Buu from a fusion of Goten and Trunks. Buutenks isn't even twice as strong as Buuhan considering none of Super Buu or Gotenks are as strong as Gohan. A fusion of SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan wouldn't even surpass that? Really?

What did he need to say instead of "a guy with another great ki appeared"? I'm not even sure Buu knows Vegeta's name. He just states there's another great ki, in the manga they don't even interact since Vegito appears immediately. Furthermore, in the entirity of Dragon Ball it comes off as natural to match a people with a "ki signature": Piccolo takes Gohan for Goku, the characters recognize Freeza's ki; there's quite the decent chance Buu at least realized it was a Saiyan, as far as I'm concerned, but he could've also understood it belonged the same guy he had fought before. Still, just because it doesn't state "look, it's Vegeta" or explicitly adds a "I see, it's the guy I had met before" there's not nearly enough to conclude he wouldn't have even the slightest idea about the possible identity of whoever had appeared.

Never mind that I'm still trying to wrap my head around "he would only factor the powers of Base Vegeta+SSJ3 < SS Goku and SS Vegeta" part. How about base Goku fusing with base Vegeta and turning Super Saiyan 3 after? Rocket science?

Second: I don't care about Buu when he's obviously boasting, it doesn't prove Buu would get things horribly wrong when assessing the power of his enemies when he has the brains of Piccolo and knows every variable intimately.

Third: If Gohan had to suppress himself to match Goku, it could mean the resulting warrior could scale off from Goku, and according to how much weaker you have him he could also be somewhat above Gohan but inferior to Buutenks. There's nothing clear-cut about how Fusion works.

Goku was even counting on beating Buu with that fusion.

Eh, possibly? I mean, he also wanted to try and turn things in Gohan's favor by providing backup Super Saiyan 3. I don't think the Metamoran Fusion would get that far off, though, combining both Goku's statements and Buu's. Maybe the result would be about as strong as Buutenks was; like I said, I think Goku is just a dead weight there, and what would bring the Fusion's power down.

[Juub]

What did he need to say instead of "someone with another great ki appeared"? Buu doesn't even know Vegeta's name. He just states there's another great ki, in the manga they don't even interact. In the manga it's pretty easy to link a ki to someone similar: Piccolo takes Gohan for Goku, the characters recognize Freeza's ki; there's quite the decent chance Buu at least realized it was a Saiyan, as far as I'm concerned.

He never felt Vegeta's Ki so he couldn't link it. He only saw Vegeta as Fat Buu and it was made abundantly clear Fat Buu couldn't sense Ki. It's the equivalent of remembering someone's face when you were blinded when you saw them. Not possible.

Second: I don't care about Buu when he's obviously boasting, it doesn't prove Buu would get things horribly wrong when assessing the power of his enemies, and third, like I said you don't have the slightest idea of how Fusion works.

It's a Majin Buu who said there were no limits to his power. Combine that with his denial when he was fighting Vegeto what have you got? You wanted proof he was drunk with power. Well the guy said his power was limitless and refused to admit Vegeto was stronger than he. Apparently Vegeto was suppressing himself? Based on what? The guy wanted to force Buu to absorb him by making him desperate. Suppressing his Ki would have been counterproductive to that.

Third: If Gohan had to suppress himself to match Goku, it could mean the resulting warrior could scale off from Goku, and according to how much weaker you have him he could also be somewhat above Gohan but inferior to Buutenks.

That would be all nice and dandy but Goku was planning on beating Buu by fusing with Gohan and was psyched at that thought. He nor Elder Kaioshin expressed any doubt of the fusion's power. The problem was that Buu would simply not let them pull off the dance.

Goku: Fusion! If I merge with Gohan we're sure to win!
Elder Kaioshin: I don't think Buu will just let you do it.

This is translated from the French manga. Don't know what Viz or the original version says. I know the fanslation has something very similar:

http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v41/c307/5.html

Elder Kaioshin asks how Goku plans on beating Buu and Goku says he will fuse. Elder Kaioshin expresses no doubt at the strength of the fusion but doesn't think Buu will let them fuse. Note the plan was to beat him, not merely fight him. Unlike Buu, Elder Kaioshin and Goku aren't delusional. Especially when such a fusion would last like 5 minutes on top of it, not the usual 30 minutes.

[LowRyder2005]

He never felt Vegeta's Ki so he couldn't link it. He only saw Vegeta as Fat Buu and it was made abundantly clear Fat Buu couldn't sense Ki.

Oh, that's right. Point taken then. I guess I have to retract my "it's only your assumption" remark to the "he couldn't know it was Vegeta's ki" criticism. I'm still rather skeptical Gogeta would end up being that far above Gotenks and I deem Buutenks > Gogeta like a very clear possibility in a lot of other scenarios, all starting from the strength of the kids after the ROSAT. There's also the fact Buuhan thought that base Goku and base *guy* could turn SS3 after fusing; while I can understand it's a little less intuitive from an in-universe perspective, it could be encompassed in Buu's "they can't win no matter what they do".

That would be all nice and dandy but Goku was planning on beating Buu by fusing with Gohan and was psyched at that thought. He nor Elder Kaioshin expressed any doubt of the fusion's power. The problem was that Buu would simply not let them pull off the dance.

Goku: Fusion! If I merge with Gohan we're sure to win!
Elder Kaioshin: I don't think Buu will just let you do it.

This is translated from the French manga. Don't know what Viz or the original version says. I know the fanslation has something very similar:

http://mangafox.me/manga/dragon_ball/v41/c307/5.html

Elder Kaioshin asks how Goku plans on beating Buu and Goku says he will fuse. Elder Kaioshin expresses no doubt at the strength of the fusion but doesn't think Buu will let them fuse.

Rou Kaioshin isn't exactly an expert of Metamoran Fusion, mind you, so his words wouldn't exactly be relevant here and it could make perfect sense he'd just take Goku's word for it. Never mind he doesn't actually touch the issue of the Fusion's strength because there are more pressing ones like the idea not being viable in the first place. It's not necessarily tacit consent.
I've already stated that I'm simply combining Goku's enthusiasm with Buu's dry statement they wouldn't be enough it boils down to whomever you think overestimated themselves/ underestimated the opponent and it's, like, personal? It doesn't change much to me if Goku + Gohan ends up stronger or slightly weaker than Buutenks, to be honest.

Apparently Vegeto was suppressing himself? Based on what? The guy wanted to force Buu to absorb him by making him desperate. Suppressing his Ki would have been counterproductive to that.

Did you wipe your own memory or something? I've already answered this.

[Juub]

Before continuing I would very much like to apologize for the way I came off. You seem like a decent guy who's open-minded and ready to discuss if the other party is respectful. Sorry about my behavior earlier. I will respectfully debate you so we can talk in a more peaceful and welcoming atmosphere.

Oh, that's right. Point taken then. I guess I have to retract the "baseless", even though I'm still rather skeptical Gogeta would end up being that far above Gotenks and I deem Buutenks > Gogeta like a very clear possibility in a lot of other scenarios, all starting from the strength of the kids after the ROSAT. But I can at least understand your criticism (still don't think I'm the one who has problems with being open-minded, but just saying).

To be honest with you I never understood why people think he would be so far above Gogeta. Yes the Potalas provide a greater effect than the fusion but Elder Kaioshin called Kibitoshin an idiot when he credited the Potalas for Vegeto's strength. He said they were so strong because it was the union of two of the most powerful fighters in the world of the living and beyond and that the fact they lived to outdo each other perfects the fusion. All of this remains true for Gogeta though. That so-called "rivalry" boost would apply to him. It's not the product of the Potalas but mainly GokuxVegeta that make the fusion so powerful. While I do think Vegeto is noticeably than Gogeta, I don't think he is overwhelmingly so.

Elder Kaioshin isn't exactly an expert of Metamoran Fusion either, so I'd say he would have almost surely taken Goku's word for it. But regardless, he didn't bother to say anything about the idea because the idea wasn't viable in the first place. It's not necessarily tacit consent.

I can understand where you're coming from but he did note that it was the fusion the squirts used which means he knew how powerful it was at least. He also saw them fuse and defuse so he knew as much about it as anybody else.

I've already stated that I'm simply combining Goku's enthusiasm with Buu's dry statement they wouldn't be enough it boils down to whoever overestimated themselves/ underestimated the opponent and it's, like, personal? It doesn't change much to me if Goku + Gohan ends up stronger or slightly weaker than Buutenks, to be honest.

Goku seldom overestimates himself in that way though. Especially not a fusion which isn't really his own power.

Did you wipe your own memory or something? I've already answered this.

I disagreed with that because that would be counterproductive. I said he was pulling his punches you replied I was making baseless assumptions but I was not. Recoome and Nappa for example pulled their punches to toy with their opponents but neither had any idea how to suppress their Ki. Suppressing one's Ki=/=pulling punches. Vegeto powered up and there was no indication he was suppressing anything especially when he wanted to overwhelm Buu and that at that point walking around in SSJ consumed very little power. There was no benefit to suppressing himself. Quite the opposite. He was however, not hitting as hard as he could. What was your final stance on that? I more or less focused on other points.

Either way I have no way of definitely proving Gogeta is stronger than Buuhan. I simply think Buuhan's opinion on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt if not outright ignored.

[floofychan333]

Canonicity. That's all.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

We don't know how or what formula the fusion dance and potara earing use to come up with the power of the end product (Vegetto/Gogeta).

Under a scenario where Goku and Vegeta had equall power and removed any kind of "shenanigan power modifier" (such as the "rivalry" boost, whether one method multiply or sums power, etc) that both fusion methods may have, Gogeta and Vegetto would have the same power.

Now who would have the edge?

I would say Vegetto, in the long run Vegetto would come up on top due to there mere fact of being a permanent fusion.