3rd place matches in the tournaments

[Krillin1994]

Recently I've been wondering what it would've been like if the martial arts tournaments featured a match to decide the 3rd place before having the finals.

In Olympics we'd have such fixtures, I guess Toriyama never done them for the sake of pacing/ focusing on the main event.

It would have meant two extra fights for Krillin,

Krillin vs Nam - 21st

Krillin vs Jackie Chun - 22nd

I feel like these fights would've been pretty awesome for further Krillin development, the concept of a Krillin-Roshi rematch to show his master how much he has developed would've been something I'd have enjoyed greatly.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Huh, never really thought about that before. I guess that means the 23rd would have been a fight between Tenshinhan and Shen/Kami (if it wasn't for the latter being stuck in a bottle at the time). Supposing that had actually been able to happen, that could have further been used to show Kami being impressed by all the heroes and not just Goku specifically.

As far as how third place was actually decided in the series, I always assumed it was whoever lost to the overall winner prior to their last match, and the fourth was whoever lost to the 2nd place person in the same manner. Using the 21st as an example -

Round One
1. Kuririn V.S. Bacterian
2. Yamcha V.S. Jackie Chun
3. Nam V.S. Ranfan
4. Goku V.S. Giran

Semi-Finals
1. Kuririn V.S. Jackie Chun
2. Nam V.S. Goku

Final Match
1. Jackie Chun V.S. Goku

- you'd get this as the final placement.

1st Place - Jackie Chun (won the tournament's final match)
2nd Place - Goku (got to the final match, lost to Jackie Chun)
3rd Place - Kuririn (got to Semi-Finals, lost to Jackie Chun who has 1st place)
4th Place - Nam (got to Semi-Finals, lost to Goku who got 2nd place)
5th Place - Yamcha (lost in first round, but to Jackie Chun who got 1st place)
6th Place - Giran (lost in first round, but to Goku who got 2nd place)
7th Place - Bacterian (lost in first round, but to Kuririn who got 3rd place)
Last Place - Ranfan (lost in first round, to Nam who got 4th place)

[nickzambuto]

It's an interesting idea on the surface, the more Kuririn the better. But I'm thinking in practice, this would have killed the pacing of the story. The tournaments are all about finding out who is the best. One by one, participants get whiddled down until there is only one left. When you're defeated, that's it, you're defeated. Now we move on to the next. So going back to two characters who were already defeated, sounds meaningless. It's not like their third place position is going to mean anything. It's already pretty easy for us to determine a hierarchy of power the way things are.

[KBABZ]

It's an interesting idea on the surface, the more Kuririn the better. But I'm thinking in practice, this would have killed the pacing of the story. The tournaments are all about finding out who is the best. One by one, participants get whiddled down until there is only one left. When you're defeated, that's it, you're defeated. Now we move on to the next. So going back to two characters who were already defeated, sounds meaningless. It's not like their third place position is going to mean anything. It's already pretty easy for us to determine a hierarchy of power the way things are.

Funny thing is, this logic can also easily apply in-universe to the tournament itself! It's called Strongest Under the Heavens, so anyone who doesn't fit that title wouldn't really matter that much once they get defeated. It doesn't seem relevant for the 21st, 22nd and 23rd tournaments anyway; it isn't until the one early in the Buu saga that winnings for third place is even mentioned!

[Olympian]

Huh, never really thought about that before. I guess that means the 23rd would have been a fight between Tenshinhan and Shen/Kami (if it wasn't for the latter being stuck in a bottle at the time). Supposing that had actually been able to happen, that could have further been used to show Kami being impressed by all the heroes and not just Goku specifically.

He sort of was. Goku is a no brainer, but he direct compliments Yamcha (both him and his technique) and pretty much laids out that with some more training Yamcha would surpass him and he also makes a passing mention during the first semi about Tenshinhan (same page I believe where Piccolo also mentions how inhuman fast both are).

[Gyt Kaliba]

He sort of was. Goku is a no brainer, but he direct compliments Yamcha (both him and his technique) and pretty much laids out that with some more training Yamcha would surpass him and he also makes a passing mention during the first semi about Tenshinhan (same page I believe where Piccolo also mentions how inhuman fast both are).

Shortly after posting that I remembered the Yamcha bit, but still don't recall the Tenshinhan bit. Huh. He would have also seen Kuririn face off directly with Piccolo (including him knowing when to call it quits), so I guess the foundation for him respecting Earth's warriors beyond Goku is already there pretty well.

[Krillin1994]

It's an interesting idea on the surface, the more Kuririn the better. But I'm thinking in practice, this would have killed the pacing of the story. The tournaments are all about finding out who is the best. One by one, participants get whiddled down until there is only one left. When you're defeated, that's it, you're defeated. Now we move on to the next. So going back to two characters who were already defeated, sounds meaningless. It's not like their third place position is going to mean anything. It's already pretty easy for us to determine a hierarchy of power the way things are.

Yeah this is pretty much my thoughts on it.

But at the same time a large part of me wished for a moment for roshi to truly feel Krillin's progress firsthand. He gave him a good fight in the 21st WMAT, and only really surpassed him by bulma confirming his higher power level. Though I guess him surprising Piccolo Jr a few times, shows he's surpassed Roshi.

I guess it's just a fanboy dream, alomg with a Yamcha vs Roshi rematch (something I never realised I wanted until I played DB origins 2)

[floofychan333]

It's an interesting idea on the surface, the more Kuririn the better. But I'm thinking in practice, this would have killed the pacing of the story. The tournaments are all about finding out who is the best. One by one, participants get whiddled down until there is only one left. When you're defeated, that's it, you're defeated. Now we move on to the next. So going back to two characters who were already defeated, sounds meaningless. It's not like their third place position is going to mean anything. It's already pretty easy for us to determine a hierarchy of power the way things are.

These matches could have been paced like the preliminaries. Not much of the preliminaries are shown and we still know who qualifies, so I think 3rd place matches/consolation matches could have been rushed through.

[dragonball0900]

The fights for third place would be interesting to see, though it would serve no purpose in the story. Even so, there are 3 fights we can consider if that was going to happen:

21st Tournament - Krillin vs Nam, both fighters do seem about equal, though Nam seems to give Goku a harder time than Krillin against Roshi.

22nd Tournament - Krillin vs Roshi, another Krillin fight, more like a rematch from the 21st Tournament fight they both had, though Roshi would still be the winner since he is stronger than Tsuru, who is stronger than Yamcha, who is at the same level of strenght as Krillin.

23rd Tournament - Tien vs Kami, it would be more or less the same as Yamcha vs Kami, with the difference that Tien would give Kami a harder time, after all, he was much stronger than Yamcha, who couldn't even see his moves in the fight against Weighted Goku.

[Olympian]

Both Kuririn and Yamcha (in contrast to Roshi and Chi Chi - one saying they dissapeared and the other asking the other two how they could see anything) are able to follow the bout, up until that point where Tenshinhan pours his speed up by telling Goku hasn`t changed much of the same in the three years in between. When that happens there`s a sequence where both go up and the duo below is able to see Goku but not Tenshinhan (or barely). Technically neither does Goku (or at least with the same level of difficulty) since Tenshinhan gets the drop on him in the end of that sequence by zipping past and hit him.

After Goku takes the weights off is when he pulls the pants prank on Tenshinhan that neither Kuririn, Yamcha and Tesnhinhan himself could notice. Piccolo only mutters how fast it was so we can assume he saw it.

[TheZFighter]

Great idea. Can't believe I've never thought of it.

Krillin vs. Nam.
Krillin vs. Jackie Chun.
Tien vs. Kami.

Would've been great. Krillin would win the first one but I'm not sure about the second one, and I'm not confident Tien would beat Kami at that point either. I like the idea of Tien winning/ impressing against Kami a lot though.

[LowRyder2005]

I think they're all fairly easy wins for Nam, Jackie Chun and Kami.

- Nam kinda keeps up with a tailed Goku, while Krillin (now at low superhuman levels himself) should be appreciably inferior to both the non-tailed Goku and a non-serious Jackie Chun.

- If I remember correctly, Tien implies that no one had surpassed Tsuru up until he fights with Roshi, even though he has seen Krillin probably going all-out when fighting Chiaotzu. So it'd go Tien > Roshi > Tsuru > Krillin and Chiaotzu. Furthermore, given that Krillin admits has to play dirty to keep up with Goku I don't see how he could almost match Tien like Roshi did.

- Tien training with Kami makes little sense if he's inferior; the question is: would the handicap of Shen's body prove too much? Tien is more or less close with a weighted Goku. Hampered by his weights, he's only marginally above his Piccolo Daimao's arc self overall because of his speed. Kami feels he has to train Goku to confront Piccolo, and his act of entering the tournament makes little sense if he's mustering power low enough not to beat someone who's just a little above that Goku and Daimao. I could see Tien possibily edging out Kami given the variables, but I'd bet my money on Kami.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think they're all fairly easy wins for Nam, Jackie Chun and Kami.

- Nam keeps up with a tailed Goku, while Krillin (now at low superhuman levels himself) should be appreciably inferior to both the non-tailed Goku and a non-serious Jackie Chun.

- If I remember correctly, Tien implies that no one had surpassed Tsuru up until he fights with Roshi, even though he has seen Krillin probably going all-out when fighting Chiaotzu. So it'd go Tien > Roshi > Tsuru > Krillin and Chiaotzu. Furthermore, given that Krillin admits has to play dirty to keep up with Goku I don't see how he could almost match Tien like Roshi did.

- Tien training with Kami makes little sense if he's inferior; the question is: would the handicap of Shen's body prove too much? Tien is more or less close with a weighted Goku. Hampered by his weights, he's only marginally above his Piccolo Daimao's arc self overall because of his speed. Kami feels he has to train Goku to confront Piccolo, and his act of entering the tournament makes little sense if he's mustering power low enough not to beat someone who's just a little above that Goku and Daimao. I could see Tien possibily edging out Kami given the variables, but I'd bet my money on Kami.

Agreed. But Shen vs Tenshinhan would be the easier fight for the 3rd place. Tenshinhan thought the Unweighted Goku was still holding back:

Chapter: 180, P1.3-4, P2.1
Context: after Goku beats Tenshinhan
Yamcha: “That was close…”
Tenshinhan: “No, it wasn’t…Frankly, his strength was on a different level…To think that he’s improved this much. What’s more, that bastard…it seems that he still hasn’t put out anywhere near his true ability. That’s right…he didn’t even fire a single Kamehameha…It hurts my pride…Just what the hell kind of training has he been doing?...”

However, he was completely astonished by Shen and Piccolo, it surpass any conciveable level:

Chapter: 181, P1.5-6
Context: as Shen and Piccolo fight
Kame-sennin: “Th…they’re too strong…”
Bulma: “H…how can these two exist…?”
Yamcha: “Da…dammit…So that’s why we couldn’t win.”
Tenshinhan: “There’s no helping it…They far surpass any level ordinarily conceivable.”

It's also important to note no change is noticed between the Piccolo who fought Shen and the Piccolo who fought Warm up Goku, so they should be the same.
So yeah, Shen vs Tenshinhan would be the easiest win for 3rd place.

Kuririn vs Jackie Chun would definitely be the best, considering it'd be a rematch of their fight at the 21st, besides being the closest we would get of a fight.

[Olympian]

Interesting to note that the main Earthlings were more invested in keeping the main attacks like the Kikoho and Kamehameha for the final bout. Ten`s four clone technique was used to counter Goku`s speed and steal maneuver space, Kuririn`s Air Dance was used to give him strategical advantage since his game in Tournaments against other strong contenders tends be more about finding openings and Yamcha`s Sokidan was so he could have a technique that couldn`t cost him the energy and be bounced back like the Kamehameha was in the 22nd.

[dragonball0900]

Great idea. Can't believe I've never thought of it.

Krillin vs. Nam.
Krillin vs. Jackie Chun.
Tien vs. Kami.

Would've been great. Krillin would win the first one but I'm not sure about the second one, and I'm not confident Tien would beat Kami at that point either. I like the idea of Tien winning/ impressing against Kami a lot though.

To be honest, I think it's pretty obvious that Jackie Chun could beat Krillin in the 22nd Budokai. Krillin is equal to Yamcha in strenght. And according to Tien, Yamcha was weaker than Tsuru and Tsuru was weaker than Roshi. Tien also had to be more serious against Roshi than against Yamcha.

[LowRyder2005]

I think they're all fairly easy wins for Nam, Jackie Chun and Kami.

- Nam keeps up with a tailed Goku, while Krillin (now at low superhuman levels himself) should be appreciably inferior to both the non-tailed Goku and a non-serious Jackie Chun.

- If I remember correctly, Tien implies that no one had surpassed Tsuru up until he fights with Roshi, even though he has seen Krillin probably going all-out when fighting Chiaotzu. So it'd go Tien > Roshi > Tsuru > Krillin and Chiaotzu. Furthermore, given that Krillin admits has to play dirty to keep up with Goku I don't see how he could almost match Tien like Roshi did.

- Tien training with Kami makes little sense if he's inferior; the question is: would the handicap of Shen's body prove too much? Tien is more or less close with a weighted Goku. Hampered by his weights, he's only marginally above his Piccolo Daimao's arc self overall because of his speed. Kami feels he has to train Goku to confront Piccolo, and his act of entering the tournament makes little sense if he's mustering power low enough not to beat someone who's just a little above that Goku and Daimao. I could see Tien possibily edging out Kami given the variables, but I'd bet my money on Kami.

Agreed. But Shen vs Tenshinhan would be the easier fight for the 3rd place. Tenshinhan thought the Unweighted Goku was still holding back:

Chapter: 180, P1.3-4, P2.1
Context: after Goku beats Tenshinhan
Yamcha: “That was close…”
Tenshinhan: “No, it wasn’t…Frankly, his strength was on a different level…To think that he’s improved this much. What’s more, that bastard…it seems that he still hasn’t put out anywhere near his true ability. That’s right…he didn’t even fire a single Kamehameha…It hurts my pride…Just what the hell kind of training has he been doing?...”

However, he was completely astonished by Shen and Piccolo, it surpass any conciveable level:

Chapter: 181, P1.5-6
Context: as Shen and Piccolo fight
Kame-sennin: “Th…they’re too strong…”
Bulma: “H…how can these two exist…?”
Yamcha: “Da…dammit…So that’s why we couldn’t win.”
Tenshinhan: “There’s no helping it…They far surpass any level ordinarily conceivable.”

It's also important to note no change is noticed between the Piccolo who fought Shen and the Piccolo who fought Warm up Goku, so they should be the same.
So yeah, Shen vs Tenshinhan would be the easiest win for 3rd place.

Kuririn vs Jackie Chun would definitely be the best, considering it'd be a rematch of their fight at the 21st, besides being the closest we would get of a fight.

I had the feeling I was missing something. Thanks for the heads-up.