Question about Roshi's strength

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Totamo
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Question about Roshi's strength

Post by Totamo » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:12 pm

Now, everyone says Roshi is the weakest human but are we ever shown that or is just stated?


Roshi blew up the moon, has any human shown that kind of feat outside of filler o using power scale?

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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by KBABZ » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:10 am

Sounds like an exaggerated claim considering that Roshi is more than capable of holding his own at the Tournament, and even kinda sorta won it that one time, so that counts for quite a lot.

If you want to go with Battle Powers, Roshi was given a rating of 139 by the Scouter Bulma scavenged off of Raditz, not that long after the Farmer was rated at 5 for a baseline of an untrained (and overweight) human. Other notable humans that he surpasses includes Lunch (18), Lan-Fan (80), Nam (100), Bacterian (110), Chi-Chi (130) and Captain Violet (150). So Roshi outclasses damn near everybody on Earth due to the untrained thing, and at least six named fighters specifically. And that's assuming that Roshi didn't train at some point after he was rated!

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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:52 am

I think current Roshi is up there with Tenshinhan and Krillin, and stronger than Yamcha.
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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:18 am

Totamo wrote:Roshi blew up the moon, has any human shown that kind of feat outside of filler o using power scale?
No, the others' feats are low tier by comparison. In the manga Krillin only gets to cut off the top of a boulder and assist with the destruction of Gero's lab, but at least he got the finishing touch and blew away the rest of the mountain.
Tenshinhan got to put square holes in the ground so deep the bottom couldn't be spotted and Yamcha's deflected Kamehameha destroyed a tournament wall.
That's about it.
Power levels of course show them to have surpassed Roshi back in Z. DBS may have turned things on their head.

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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by Olympian » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:56 am

Totamo wrote:Now, everyone says Roshi is the weakest human but are we ever shown that or is just stated?


Roshi blew up the moon, has any human shown that kind of feat outside of filler o using power scale?
It`s indicated in the Saiyan Saga when Bulma reads power levels that they`ve surpassed Roshi. This is before they train next with two teachers also more powerful than Roshi. But actually showed outside of power reading context? No. Then again the Manga at the time had things like Goku climbing to the moon and back.

Currently tought? No idea. He was chosen because he was strategically useful and remains the one character you can see was chosen for that especific trope, despite the hype surrounding the comeback of more strategy and less boom boom for the TOP. If I recall (was it Toei?) released some character cards when Super was launched and Roshi wasn`t stronger than Yamcha yet, so dunno. It`s up in the air.
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Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by LightBing » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:02 am

I say wait for the manga to reach the Tournament of Power to get an answer to where he currently stands.

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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by Olympian » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:31 am

dbgtFO wrote:
Totamo wrote:Roshi blew up the moon, has any human shown that kind of feat outside of filler o using power scale?
No, the others' feats are low tier by comparison. In the manga Krillin only gets to cut off the top of a boulder and assist with the destruction of Gero's lab, but at least he got the finishing touch and blew away the rest of the mountain.
Tenshinhan got to put square holes in the ground so deep the bottom couldn't be spotted and Yamcha's deflected Kamehameha destroyed a tournament wall.
That's about it.
Power levels of course show them to have surpassed Roshi back in Z. DBS may have turned things on their head.
Maybe more than a Wall, there`s a hole behind it?
Ki Breaker wrote:

Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

Coincidence? I think not

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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:06 pm

Olympian wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: [...]and Yamcha's deflected Kamehameha destroyed a tournament wall.[...]
Maybe more than a Wall, there`s a hole behind it?
Yeah, we never see what it hit, as it just went through the wall, but probably more.

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Re: Question about Roshi's strength

Post by Akira » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:32 am

Roshi seems to be a character that is hard to pin down on where he stands exactly, especially when he was relegated to background character by the second portion of the story [Dragon Ball Z] with his only real fighting performance there being in The World's Strongest theatrical feature. Given that the characters were assigned battle power numbers retroactively for the earlier arcs once they became a thing at the arrival of Raditz, it feels slightly like pigeon holing them to certain numbers via a retcon, rather than totally making sense. I will mention a few of the conflicts this creates for the earlier stories, and then leave it up to you to decide what really happened when numbers aren't tacked onto it. Let me be clear, I don't want to try to figure it out either, as the numbers really only serve a purpose for the Raditz-Freeza portion of the story, and otherwise create conflicts when trying to reconcile them with everything else before and after.

The True Sacred Water/Ultra Divine Water (whichever term you prefer) is stated to grant the drinker, if they survive, a tenfold power enhancement. Yet, Goku is stated to be 180 at the 22nd World Tournament, and 260 when he takes on Piccolo Daimao. That's not even a 2x increase, when these arcs take place back to back seamlessly without any time skips. We could even question things like Goku stating he can fight Tenshinhan with his "Battle Best" [i.e. killing strength] rather than his "Tournament Best' [Holding back to not seriously or gravely injure anyone]. Which does the "180" apply to?

Roshi is stated to be stronger than Crane Hermit, who is listed as 120 at the time of the same tournament. He is scanned as "139" by Bulma in the Saiyan arc. That was his resting strength though, because I believe he was reclined on the couch at the time. He would have had to have been at least that back during the 22nd Tournament to be stronger than Crane. None of this takes into account Roshi's "full power" as seen when he destroyed fire mountain early in the series, or when he destroyed the moon to force Goku to revert to his normal form during the 21st Tournament. I often see people mention 139 needed to blow up the moon, but Roshi's full power would have to be much stronger than his resting strength, wouldn't it? We also saw Roshi training in secret at about the same time Goku was training with Korin the first time during the Red Ribbon Arc. I don't believe for a moment that he trained in earnest to stay ahead of Goku, for an output of zero gains.

Also consider that during the Jackie Chun vs. Tenshinhan match that he did indeed "power up" somewhat to match Tenshinhan in the fight, however, it is not his 100% that we witnessed in the other two instances. He is bulked up somewhat more than normal, but not the hulk sized beast he becomes at full power. He forfeits the match by hopping out of the ring, once he confirmed for himself that Tenshinhan was strong enough to give Goku a run for the title. (I'd also argue that he wasn't looking forward to fighting Goku again anyway, as it probably would have required his 100% to beat him this time) Crane boasts that Roshi was scared of Tenshinhan, but Tenshinhan knows better. He states that he suspected quite strongly that Roshi held back on him, and never displayed his true power during the match. Plus, Roshi was trying to show Tenshinhan a better path, and beating him down wouldn't have accomplished his goals.

Given these points, I would strongly argue that Roshi is severely underestimated in terms of power during this period of the story. In part due to the constrictions placed on the Dragonball series regarding the retroactive battle power numbers being haphazardly applied. Also due to most of the western fanbase having seen Z first, and already discount Roshi as little more than background fodder when watching the original series after the fact. I would dare argue that Roshi is indeed humble about his strength, is more interested in the succeeding generation finding their place in the world as top martial artists, and to become greater than he ever had. To carry on as protectors of the planet in his stead. That was his personal mission, not dominating over everyone else anymore. I would parallel it to Goku wanting his son, Gohan to become stronger than him, and later, Goten, Trunks, and later still Uub, to carry on in his stead.

Stranger still is the battle against Piccolo Daimao, followed by preparations for the 23rd tournament, followed by a five year gap before the arrival of Raditz (and the advent of battle power numbers) would be such small steps in increasing strength. If they were already in the high 200's by the battle with Piccolo Daimao, and their combat strength was only around the low 300's by the Raditz fight, that doesn't leave a believable space of numbers to "fill in" the eight years between those two points.

So, to be quite honest, I ignore the battle powers for the earlier part of the story, because they absolutely make no sense in regards to what we are shown. I once tried to make sense of it all, and no amount of fudging the numbers could even make it all work out for the first series. I too like the concept of the scouters and the numbers, but they really only work for the first third of Dragon Ball Z, and can't be applied to anything before or after.

Ignoring the numbers, as one within all reason should for the first series, I would argue that Roshi was not truly surpassed until the training for the 23rd World Tournament was well under way. During those three years, the upcoming generation surpassed the master, and his goals were achieved. When you look at it this way, and ignore numbers, it is not as difficult to believe Roshi was inspired by his students to continue training himself, if only to see where his own true limits were. He mentioned this fact in the recent Dragon Ball Super episode where he said Goku and Krillin had inspired him to do just that. We saw, as I mentioned previously, that Roshi trained himself in secret, and never let anyone else witness his own training sessions. We, as the audience, only caught a glimpse of it during that thunderstorm while Goku was training with Korin.

I have taken the viewpoint that once he [Roshi], saw the boys [Krillin and Goku] continue to surpass their own limitations time and again in the subsequent years after his "retirement", and that they had taken his teachings to heart and continued to improve and press themselves past their limits, that it inspired him to continue training in secret. Not for the purpose of "keeping up", nor to participate in the level of conflict that his students found themselves in, but solely for his own satisfaction as a martial artist. In a way, the students taught the master, and who else but the master would continue on a path of self betterment for its sake alone?

In that way, the recent events of Super, and Roshi's return to the front lines makes a whole lot more sense, especially when you can give up trying to make numbers fit. It would almost, given the context of the story, and progression of the characters' individual development and personal journeys, not make any sense for Roshi to not be where he is right now. I know there will always be a faction of the fanbase that cannot escape the "power scaling" and "battle powers" aspects of the franchise, but for everyone else, maybe there is something of value to be found in my interpretation of these things..
"Of" =/= "Have"

Contractions:
-Should have = Should've
-Could have = Could've
-Would have = Would've

The heck does "should of" even mean anyway? Think about what those two words mean individually, and then try to read them back to back in a sentence and make sense of it. Are you forming a prepositional phrase, is "should" a part of a larger grouping, or are you just typing random words based on how you think you hear them used verbally? Perhaps take a moment to contemplate this, and see if it becomes as mind jarring for you to look at as it does for me..

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