How strong was Gohan in RoF?

[mamoru]

I say he was stronger than Mystic. I watched a collaboration video Herms did with GeeklistTV, and he stated that Gohan was saying "Zekkouchou" and Herms translated it as Gohan's "Peak Condition", and he said that Gohan was talking about before he got shot by Tagoma. But then Gohan ate a Senzu bean and then Herms went on to state that the only other thing he would be talking about is his Ultimate Form. So that means Rusty SSJ Gohan > Mystic Buu Saga. It makes sense since Gohan was able to compete with Piccolo, which his "Teen" self couldn't even compete with.

[ssbgoku]

I say he was stronger than Mystic. I watched a collaboration video Herms did with GeeklistTV, and he stated that Gohan was saying "Zekkouchou" and Herms translated it as Gohan's "Peak Condition", and he said that Gohan was talking about before he got shot by Tagoma. But then Gohan ate a Senzu bean and then Herms went on to state that the only other thing he would be talking about is his Ultimate Form. So that means Rusty SSJ Gohan > Mystic Buu Saga. It makes sense since Gohan was able to compete with Piccolo, which his "Teen" self couldn't even compete with.

That was mistranslation as Herms later confirmed and corrected that Gohan was talking only about his best in Current state. It also make sense as he stated he can not access his full power and probably only can transform in ssj. It had been discussed over and over stop trying to make shitstorm in this forum, it was already done once.
Even if it was initial plan of writter/Toryiama then retconn is your answer, as in light/reveleance of current power scaling(ssj rusty gohan vs ssj goku) it makes sense that:

Current Ultimate Gohan > Buu arc Ultimate Gohan > enraged ss2 vegeta > Bog Ultimate Gohan(arguably if he even meant to be one) > Final form frieeza > rof ssj gohan(full power) > ssj gotenks > good buu > rof rusty ssj gohan(loosing stamina) >= First form frieeza > Tagoma > Picoolo(no weights) > Base gohan > Picoolo(with weights)

Gohan was able to transform in ssj but his body couldn't hold it long enough and he was dropping in power at really fast rate, the same mistake golden frieeza made in rof.
Picoolo was holding back too long and paid price for that(That why he looked weaker then Base gohan).

Picoolo retraining gohan and telling him to bring back power he used against super buu just made everything retconn or rather simplified interpretation of events which people were interpreteting in different ways.

[mamoru]

I say he was stronger than Mystic. I watched a collaboration video Herms did with GeeklistTV, and he stated that Gohan was saying "Zekkouchou" and Herms translated it as Gohan's "Peak Condition", and he said that Gohan was talking about before he got shot by Tagoma. But then Gohan ate a Senzu bean and then Herms went on to state that the only other thing he would be talking about is his Ultimate Form. So that means Rusty SSJ Gohan > Mystic Buu Saga. It makes sense since Gohan was able to compete with Piccolo, which his "Teen" self couldn't even compete with.

That was mistranslation as Herms later confirmed and corrected that Gohan was talking only about his best in Current state. It also make sense as he stated he can not access his full power and probably only can transform in ssj. It had been discussed over and over stop trying to make shitstorm in this forum, it was already done once.
Even if it was initial plan of writter/Toryiama then retconn is your answer, as in light/reveleance of current power scaling(ssj rusty gohan vs ssj goku) it makes sense that:

Current Ultimate Gohan > Buu arc Ultimate Gohan > enraged ss2 vegeta > Bog Ultimate Gohan(arguably if he even meant to be one) > Final form frieeza > rof ssj gohan(full power) > ssj gotenks > good buu > rof rusty ssj gohan(loosing stamina) >= First form frieeza > Tagoma > Picoolo(no weights) > Base gohan > Picoolo(with weights)

Gohan was able to transform in ssj but his body couldn't hold it long enough and he was dropping in power at really fast rate, the same mistake golden frieeza made in rof.
Picoolo was holding back too long and paid price for that(That why he looked weaker then Base gohan).

Picoolo retraining gohan and telling him to bring back power he used against super buu just made everything retconn or rather simplified interpretation of events which people were interpreteting in different ways.

In the video, Herms himself stated that Gohan was talking about his past self, A.K.A Mystic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh0ZOwgisgQ

[Hugo Boss]

The implication is that Tagoma was at least on par with Base Gohan's best condition, because even after powering-up by Ginyu he was still no match for Super Saiyan Gohan. This happens before Gohan regains the ability to turn Mystic as well.

[LowRyder2005]

We don't know exactly, but what we do know with near certainty is that neither Tagoma nor Gohan should really be stronger than Ultimate Gohan; not even the one seen in the Buu arc, who's weaker than the current.

The base Gohan who basically went half-way through Piccolo's training is later described by Trunks as possessing ki "less stupendous" than his post-Cell Game arc self (the last time they saw each other was when Trunks was resurrected and said his goodbyes).
It's later clarified that the power hierarchy is still supposed to be Ultimate > (SS3; see Son Goku Densetsu) > SS2 > SS. Trunks' statements obviously do not mesh if Gohan is that much stronger; most importantly, this also means there should not be any actual chance that his Super Saiyan form put him above Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc in ROF. The Ultimate form is over eight times stronger than a regular Super Saiyan.

Ultimate Gohan (BOG or Buu arc) < SS Gohan (Cell Game) < SS Gohan (ROF; post-Senzu) < Tagoma (at most) < Base Gohan (Cell Game) < Base Gohan (Super; post-Piccolo's 101 training) < Base Gohan (Super; ROF and post-Senzu) < Tagoma (at least) < Piccolo (weighted and tired).

In short, Gohan is rested and uninjured but Gohan's prediction is off anyway -- regardless of what the subs say. I suppose he might be pegging Tagoma as someone who's "probably" comparable to his (trained) transformed states in general, but if it turns out Tagoma is weaker than a rusty SS Gohan already who's less impressive than his kid self, he can only be on the low end of the scale.

There's also not nearly enough to conclude Gohan is above Piccolo without transforming: a weighted (and non-Senzu'ed) Piccolo is decimated by Tagoma, the best the base Gohan with his stamina refilled does is making a way less serious Tagoma-Ginyu lament how terribly weak he is. Nothing different than base Goku outperforming Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Since Piccolo some months later is above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, I don't think this this contention really holds any water. Piccolo's stronger, but I don't know about a 100-fold kind of jump in some months. I have him doing something similar in the early Android Arc because the statements lean very heavily towards that direction, but the way he talks about Fat Buu back in the Buu arc really seem to suggest it's not a level of power he could easily reach -- if not "reach at all". And this after many years of supposed training, whether light or heavy.

[Whatever]

We don't know exactly, but what we do know with near certainty is that neither Tagoma nor Gohan should really be stronger than Ultimate Gohan; not even the one seen in the Buu arc, who's weaker than the current.

The base Gohan who basically went half-way through Piccolo's training is later described by Trunks as possessing ki "less stupendous" than his post-Cell Game arc self (the last time they saw each other was when Trunks was resurrected and said his goodbyes).

He said that about a rested base Gohan and that he does not look as intense.

In short, Gohan is rested and uninjured but Gohan's prediction is off anyway -- regardless of what the subs say. I suppose he might be pegging Tagoma as someone who's "probably" comparable to his (trained) transformed states in general, but if it turns out Tagoma is weaker than a rusty SS Gohan already who's less impressive than his kid self, he can only be on the low end of the scale.

Yeah Gohan's statement is weird can be interpeted several ways but it seemed quite obvious that Rof base Gohan was in the same ballpark as weighted Piccolo,which means outside of Ultimate,Gohan is stronger than his buu saga self.

There's also not nearly enough to conclude Gohan is above Piccolo without transforming: a weighted (and non-Senzu'ed) Piccolo is decimated by Tagoma, the best the base Gohan with his stamina refilled does is making a way less serious Tagoma-Ginyu lament how terribly weak he is. Nothing different than base Goku outperforming Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Since Piccolo some months later is above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, I don't think this this contention really holds any water. Piccolo's stronger, but I don't know about a 100-fold kind of jump in some months. I have him doing something similar in the early Android Arc because the statements lean very heavily towards that direction, but the way he talks about Fat Buu back in the Buu arc really seem to suggest it's not a level of power he could easily reach -- if not "reach at all". And this after many years of supposed training, whether light or heavy.

You said it yourself,he said the same about Frieza and then he went beyond that level of power with 3 years of training.
He said the same thing about 2nd form Cell,then went into the Rosat and surpassed that as well.
So i don't see how Buu is anything different,all those statements were made to hype the current threat,after all Buu's power is not a milestone anymore.

[sintzu]

In BOG he had his mystic form and seemed as strong as he was when he fought Super Buu but in RF I'd go as far as to say that he was weaker than he was when he fought Dabura as he said he wasn't even sure he could go Ssj.

[LowRyder2005]

We don't know exactly, but what we do know with near certainty is that neither Tagoma nor Gohan should really be stronger than Ultimate Gohan; not even the one seen in the Buu arc, who's weaker than the current.

The base Gohan who basically went half-way through Piccolo's training is later described by Trunks as possessing ki "less stupendous" than his post-Cell Game arc self (the last time they saw each other was when Trunks was resurrected and said his goodbyes).

He said that about a rested base Gohan and that he does not look as intense.

In short, Gohan is rested and uninjured but Gohan's prediction is off anyway -- regardless of what the subs say. I suppose he might be pegging Tagoma as someone who's "probably" comparable to his (trained) transformed states in general, but if it turns out Tagoma is weaker than a rusty SS Gohan already who's less impressive than his kid self, he can only be on the low end of the scale.

Yeah Gohan's statement is weird can be interpeted several ways but it seemed quite obvious that Rof base Gohan was in the same ballpark as weighted Piccolo,which means outside of Ultimate,Gohan is stronger than his buu saga self.

There's also not nearly enough to conclude Gohan is above Piccolo without transforming: a weighted (and non-Senzu'ed) Piccolo is decimated by Tagoma, the best the base Gohan with his stamina refilled does is making a way less serious Tagoma-Ginyu lament how terribly weak he is. Nothing different than base Goku outperforming Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta. Since Piccolo some months later is above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, I don't think this this contention really holds any water. Piccolo's stronger, but I don't know about a 100-fold kind of jump in some months. I have him doing something similar in the early Android Arc because the statements lean very heavily towards that direction, but the way he talks about Fat Buu back in the Buu arc really seem to suggest it's not a level of power he could easily reach -- if not "reach at all". And this after many years of supposed training, whether light or heavy.

You said it yourself,he said the same about Frieza and then he went beyond that level of power with 3 years of training.
He said the same thing about 2nd form Cell,then went into the Rosat and surpassed that as well.
So i don't see how Buu is anything different,all those statements were made to hype the current threat,after all Buu's power is not a milestone anymore.

... You are not making any sense. Trunks sees base Gohan and literally states he doesn't feel the same brimming power he had when the Cell Game took place (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxydAwI-SHE). What else do you need to get the idea he's not as strong as he was at that point? It's not like he hadn't had ample time to see and interact with the regular base Gohan after the Cell Game in a relaxed state (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5prSzpaFHzc). The comparison is there to let you know Gohan just regressed as a warrior -- just like every other character reports when interrogated on the matter: Piccolo and Goku all say the same thing.

Regarding ROF, characters sensed each other's hidden power back in Z multiple times, and the power dormant in Gohan was obviously superior to Piccolo's. Don't see the issue here: scrubby Ultimate Gohan (can't output) > Piccolo >= semi-scrubby SS2 Gohan who re-went through most of the basics > scrubby SS Gohan who ate a Senzu in ROF > Piccolo (weighted and tired).

This is common sense, really. Unless you think they wanted us to reach the conclusion both Gohan and Piccolo became hundreds of times stronger in months, one during the gap between Buu and ROF and one who went from weaker than base Gohan to equal to SS2 Gohan.
And even Good Buu was still regarded as superior to Piccolo in both ROF and post, while Piccolo has yet to do anything that unquestionably puts him above the top dogs of the Cell Game, let alone the Buu saga.

[Whatever]

... You are not making any sense. Trunks sees base Gohan and literally states he doesn't feel the same brimming power he had when the Cell Game took place (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxydAwI-SHE). What else do you need to get the idea he's not as strong as he was at that point? It's not like he hadn't had ample time to see and interact with the regular base Gohan after the Cell Game in a relaxed state (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5prSzpaFHzc). The comparison is there to let you know Gohan just regressed as a warrior -- just like every other character reports when interrogated on the matter: Piccolo and Goku all say the same thing.

You are right that Trunk's statement is there to let you know that Gohan has regressed as a warrior.
But nowhere it is stated he is weaker than his Cell saga and Buu counterpart(outside of Ultimate),in fact in Rof base Gohan seems to be in the same league as weighted Piccolo which is not possible if he is weaker than his Cell games counterpart since we know Bog base Goku was weaker than Namek Freeza.
Trunks statement does not prove anything since he could not feel Gohan's brimmming power when Gohan was in his rested state anyways.

Regarding ROF, characters sensed each other's hidden power back in Z multiple times, and the power dormant in Gohan was obviously superior to Piccolo's. Don't see the issue here: scrubby Ultimate Gohan (can't output) > Piccolo >= semi-scrubby SS2 Gohan who re-went through most of the basics > scrubby SS Gohan who ate a Senzu in ROF > Piccolo (weighted and tired).

Yes but that does not mean they are always right.
Unless you mean Trunks sensed Gohan's power right and not Goku's or Vegeta's(since he was unaware how strong they were).
I don't have a problem with this specific scalling but episode 88 Gohan was certainly not as scrubby as Rof Gohan,not even close.

This is common sense, really. Unless you think they wanted us to reach the conclusion both Gohan and Piccolo became hundreds of times stronger in months, one during the gap between Buu and ROF and one who went from weaker than base Gohan to equal to SS2 Gohan.
And even Good Buu was still regarded as superior to Piccolo in both ROF and post, while Piccolo has yet to do anything that unquestionably puts him above the top dogs of the Cell Game, let alone the Buu saga.

Regardless of where you think base Rof Gohan stands in power(whatever he is stronger or weaker than weighted Piccolo)we are pretty much shown he is in the same league as him,something that base Cell saga Gohan was not.
In Rof Buu was regarded superior as Piccolo because he was during that period.
And yes Piccolo obviously got many times stronger during Rof to the current arc since Rof Piccolo was weaker than a rusty super saiyan Gohan and he destroyed a decently trained ssj2 Gohan.
And we know that Gohan was stronger than his 11 year old self for 100% because he wanted to show Goku how strong he has gotten during the exhibition match to Goku.Unless you think Gohan was planning to impress Goku by being weaker than his 11 year old self.
And we know Piccolo is stronger than all of Buu saga(outside of ssj Vegetto since we don't know many times above Buuhan he actually was)since he could block hits from a tired Final Form Frost while base Goku was losing against his Assault Form who is as strong as base Vegeta who destroyed ssj3 Gotenks.

[LowRyder2005]

But nowhere it is stated he is weaker than his Cell saga

You're literally told hasn't the "same strength (chikara)". So yes, it is stated he is weaker than his Cell Saga self. Don't try to tiptoe around such a blatant statement.

in fact in Rof base Gohan seems to be in the same league as weighted Piccolo which is not possible if he is weaker than his Cell games counterpart since we know Bog base Goku was weaker than Namek Freeza.

Nope. He is in the same league of Piccolo as much as Roshi is, if your rationale is that he is able not to get insta-killed against Tagoma. The only thing going on with Gohan is that it's stated he should be the most dangerous of the bunch when he's in base, but it wouldn't the first time someone takes a stab at gauging someone's hidden power in the series.

Yes but that does not mean they are always right.
Unless you mean Trunks sensed Gohan's power right and not Goku's or Vegeta's(since he was unaware how strong they were).
I don't have a problem with this specific scalling but episode 88 Gohan was certainly not as scrubby as Rof Gohan,not even close.

Uhm, what are you even trying to say? Episode 88 Gohan is still weak enough to get trounced by Piccolo as a SS2, by the way.

Regardless of where you think base Rof Gohan stands in power(whatever he is stronger or weaker than weighted Piccolo)we are pretty much shown he is in the same league as him,something that base Cell saga Gohan was not.
In Rof Buu was regarded superior as Piccolo because he was during that period.
And yes Piccolo obviously got many times stronger during Rof to the current arc since Rof Piccolo was weaker than a rusty super saiyan Gohan and he destroyed a decently trained ssj2 Gohan.
And we know that Gohan was stronger than his 11 year old self for 100% because he wanted to show Goku how strong he has gotten during the exhibition match to Goku.Unless you think Gohan was planning to impress Goku by being weaker than his 11 year old self.

Except your entire rationale falls apart because it's not stated anywhere nor implied that base Gohan is above or even in the same league of a serious Piccolo. Everything in ROF happens with the characters wasting stamina trying not to kill dozens of enemies; comparing the performance of a healthy base Gohan who has eaten a Senzu to a Piccolo who's battered, tired and weighted is ridiculous. And base Gohan literally can't even land a punch on a Tagoma-Ginyu (who's humoring him) even when healed, so he literally performs as bad as a tired and weighted Piccolo; meaning you have no way to compare the two when healed. Bolded: again, nope, this is just poor logic. It just means he made some progress compared to how he was in ROF. If you actually pay attention even Gohan himself says Piccolo is "retraining him from scratch". Note retraining him. Implication: they are still not done with the basics.

Never mind that Gohan is advertised as "stronger than ever" and "finally regaining his lost strength" in all the production-related material that predated the Piccolo vs. Gohan episode.

And we know Piccolo is stronger than all of Buu saga(outside of ssj Vegetto since we don't know many times above Buuhan he actually was)since he could block hits from a tired Final Form Frost while base Goku was losing against his Assault Form who is as strong as base Vegeta who destroyed ssj3 Gotenks.

I take it you haven't kept up with Super's strength related scale at all. Super Saiyan Gohan himself after being retrained is outright shown to be stronger than regular base Goku (supposedly, he goes Super Saiyan instead of powering up in base), and when he's not even able to defeat Piccolo; plus, at the very least Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in episode 88 is not above Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc, also. But Buu Arc Gohan is almost surely be above every form of Gohan from that point (given that Trunks, again, tells you base Gohan is already inferior to base Gohan of the Cell Game). Base Goku can't even k.o. Basil alone, meaning he's inferior to Good Buu, and #18 can hurt the same Tupper who can't be leagues below base Goku if he's able to bind him. You'd better retrace your mental steps.

Hypothesizing every single one of these characters can suddenly become 1,000 times stronger by training in the woods already doesn't make much sense, much less when in the series there's nothing actually suggesting it. The strength of the base form you see in ROF has almost certainly been soft-retconned like many other things in Super (starting from Beerus' 10% line, now ignored, to SS Goku being not that far off SS God) starting from the Future Trunks Arc. In the ROF movie they were implied to be incredibly strong, they initially adapted this outline, but lately it's blatantly obvious they are just abiding to a more familiar power hierarchy. If you're not willing to accept the possibility of a retcon for some reason, it's still incomparably easier to reach the conclusion Copy Vegeta warmed up against Goku or that Goten and Trunks became much weaker themselves.

By the way, in the very last episode of Super you had Final Form Freeza being around the strength of the current Ultimate Gohan (or at least far, far above base Gohan) when Gohan is already far, far above SS2 Goku. And the same Final Form Freeza was stated to be stronger than Frost even before he had unveiled his Golden form. I suppose you'll now go "Freeza became stronger in Hell even in his regular form (even though this isn't stated)"... just sayin', though.

But yeah, all this exchange would have normally stopped at Trunks' words. "Trunks is visibly disappointed when he sees base Gohan since he expected him to have at least the same power he had back in the day = Gohan is weaker". Period. One can fill the gaps by themselves and it's not like everything you see makes less sense than it would otherwise; I'd say Trunks' crystal-clear clarification is much welcome.

[Whatever]

He hasn't the "same power". So yes, it is stated he is weaker than his Cell Saga self. Don't try to tiptoe around such a blatant statement.

Where exactly is Gohan compared to his 11 old self?
If you mean Trunk's statement then that must mean you believe he can sense Gohan's hidden power but cannot Goku's or Vegeta's for some weird reason.

Nope. He is in the same league as much as Roshi is, if your rationale is that he is able not to get insta-killed against Tagoma. The only thing going on with Gohan is that it's stated he should be the most dangerous of the bunch when he's in base, but it wouldn't the first time someone takes a stab at gauging someone's hidden power in the series.

Base Gohan was attacked by Tagoma/Ginyu that was stated by Piccolo to have increased his power further and yet he did not fare that much worse than weighted Piccolo did against a weaker Tagoma.

Uhm, what are you even trying to say? Episode 88 Gohan is still weak enough to get trounced by Piccolo as a SS2, by the way.

I know that,what i am trying to say is that by using Trunk's statement as a fact then that would mean he could sense the hidden power of a rested Gohan but could not sense Goku's and Vegeta's power for some reason since he was unaware how strong they were.

Except your entire rationale falls apart because it's not stated anywhere nor implied that base Gohan is above or even in the same league of a serious Piccolo. Everything in ROF happens with the characters wasting stamina trying not to kill dozens of enemies.

I never said anything about a serious Piccolo but its a fact base Gohan performed as good if not better than a weighted Piccolo against the same enemy(not to mention Gohan faced Tagoma/Ginyu after Piccolo made the statement about Tagoma/Ginyu becoming stronger).

Bolded: again, nope, this is just poor logic. It just means he made some progress compared to how he was in ROF. He never states he was stronger than ever.

If you think this is poor logic then yours is as well.
You are saying that Gohan was trying to impress Goku while being weaker than his 11 year old self and by that logic the same goes for the opposite,he never states he is weaker than what he was as a 11 year old.

Never mind that Gohan is advertised as "stronger than ever" and "finally regaining his lost strength" in all the production-related material that predated the Piccolo vs. Gohan episode.

So what you are saying does not match the material and its pretty obvious they were talking about his Ultimate form.

I take it you haven't kept up with Super's strength related scale at all. Super Saiyan Gohan himself after being retrained is outright shown to be stronger than regular base Goku (supposedly, he goes Super Saiyan instead of powering up in base), and when he's not even able to defeat Piccolo; plus, at the very least Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in episode 88 is not above Ultimate Gohan from the Buu arc, also. But Buu Arc Gohan is almost surely be above every form of Gohan from that point (given that Trunks, again, tells you base Gohan is already inferior to base Gohan of the Cell Game). Base Goku can't even k.o. Basil alone, meaning he's inferior to Good Buu, and #18 can hurt the same Tupper who can't be leagues below base Goku if he's able to bind him. You'd better retrace your mental steps.

We know that Gohan was stronger than his Rof self when he fought Goku as a super saiyan.
Again Trunk's statement is not accurate unless you mean he could sense a rested Gohan with precise accuracy for some reason,not to mention you said they were examples of characters sensing other character's hidden power in the past correct?
There are also examples of them being wrong,like Dabura thinking that Pui Pui could defeat base Goku,Gohan and Vegeta on his own but thinking Piccolo's power is trash.
Base Goku was handling Basil fine till the others were ganging up on him and the Pride Trooper who could bind him could increase his weight so it had nothing to do with his power.
The problem is that if we follow your mental steps then the opposite can be held true using the same logic.

Hypothesizing every character can suddenly become 1,000 times stronger by training in the woods already doesn't make much sense, much less when in the series there's nothing actually suggesting it. The strength of the base form you see in ROF has almost certainly been soft-retconned like many other things in Super (starting from Beerus' 10% line, now ignored, to SS Goku being not that far off SS God) starting from the Future Trunks Arc. In the ROF movie they were implied to be incredibly strong, they initially adapted this outline, but lately it's blatantly obvious they are just abiding to a more familiar power hierarchy.

I don't recall Gohan and Piccolo training in the woods or them becoming 1000 time stronger,also off screen training with absurd gains is nothing new,it happened with both Gohan and Piccolo in the Cell arc but for some reason you seem really adamant about Buu's power actually still being a milestone to the point you lowbail everyone to fit that.
In the anime version of BOG we know Beerus is lying all the time since thats what we are being told when he leaves with Whis anyways,despite stating quite a few times that he was using his full power against Goku.
Also nothing has proved that the base power from Rof has been retconned and if you believe that has happened then why are you using examples from that arc to prove the opposite?
It seems to me like handpicking.

[LowRyder2005]

He hasn't the "same power". So yes, it is stated he is weaker than his Cell Saga self. Don't try to tiptoe around such a blatant statement.

Where exactly is Gohan compared to his 11 old self?
If you mean Trunk's statement then that must mean you believe he can sense Gohan's hidden power but cannot Goku's or Vegeta's for some weird reason.

Uh... You know what? I don't think I'm gonna waste my time at all.

* I never stated Trunks was sensing Gohan's hidden power or something, he sees base Gohan and tells you that Gohan is weaker than what he remembered, meaning the base Gohan he has in front of his has less strength than Gohan's base self in the Cell Arc. And Trunks can obviously sense it since he outright states so. I don't see how it relates to Trunks wanting to see how much Goku and Vegeta progressed in general; he should already be able to tell they're stronger, but it's obvious he would think they might have something extra he can't perceive.

* Everything you are deducing about Gohan and Piccolo in ROF is a moot point. Ever since Tagoma steps in, one has eaten a Senzu and is 100% healthy, the other is stamina-deprived and weighted. There's no way to compare the two.

* If base Goku was above SS3 Gotenks he'd be many times above Good Buu, meaning he'd be able to beat Basil harder than Fat Buu did Dabra. Instead he has to go Super Saiyan to beat him and the rest of U9, who are all weaker than Basil. And Tupper was binding Goku without issue even before he raised his weight (you can clearly see Goku struggling and trying to move), you should rewatch the scene.

You are saying that Gohan was trying to impress Goku while being weaker than his 11 year old self and by that logic the same goes for the opposite,he never states he is weaker than what he was as a 11 year old.

No.

First off, you are saying he wants to impress Goku. He says he wants to show Goku how much he progressed, the obvious implication being "compared to the last he had seen him fight". But even if he wanted to impress Goku, he could impress him by showing how much he had progressed from his ROF self; it could've meant he had just regained a lot of his former power. Anything else is your speculation.

We know that Gohan was stronger than his Rof self when he fought Goku as a super saiyan.

And who's arguing he isn't? That happens way after.

[Whatever]

He hasn't the "same power". So yes, it is stated he is weaker than his Cell Saga self. Don't try to tiptoe around such a blatant statement.

Where exactly is Gohan compared to his 11 old self?
If you mean Trunk's statement then that must mean you believe he can sense Gohan's hidden power but cannot Goku's or Vegeta's for some weird reason.

Uh... You know what? I don't think I'm gonna waste my time at all.

All the instances i recall him being compared to Buu saga Ultimate Gohan.
Again you used Trunk's statement as an example and stated that characters have sense people's hidden power correctly before,unless i misssed something.
But said statements have been proven not to be reliabe either just like Dabura's.

[LowRyder2005]

Where exactly is Gohan compared to his 11 old self?
If you mean Trunk's statement then that must mean you believe he can sense Gohan's hidden power but cannot Goku's or Vegeta's for some weird reason.

Uh... You know what? I don't think I'm gonna waste my time at all.

All the instances i recall him being compared to Buu saga Ultimate Gohan.
Again you used Trunk's statement as an example and stated that characters have sense people's hidden power correctly before,unless i misssed something.
But said statements have been proven wrong before just like Dabura's.

First off, Dabra and Babidi can't sense ki and Trunks can. Secondly, the statement was there for a reason and to fit in with the whole theme of Gohan being a far cry from his fighting days, it wasn't meant to swerve you into thinking Trunks had the wrong idea.

[Whatever]

* I never stated Trunks was sensing Gohan's hidden power or something, he sees base Gohan and tells you that Gohan is weaker than what he remembered, meaning the base Gohan he has in front of his has less strength than Gohan's base self in the Cell Arc. And Trunks can obviously sense it since he outright states so. I don't see how it relates to Trunks wanting to see how much Goku and Vegeta progressed in general; he should already be able to tell they're stronger, but it's obvious he would think they might have something extra he can't perceive.

To be fair,Trunks never sensed base Gohan,he was and stayed a super saiyan till Cell was defeated and then Gohan never powered up again,heck we see him having flashbacks to ssj2 Gohan fighting Cell.
The point i am trying to make is if he could sense how strong a fully powered up base Gohan is then he could the same for Goku and Vegeta.

* Everything you are deducing about Gohan and Piccolo in ROF is a moot point. Ever since Tagoma steps in, one has eaten a Senzu and is 100% healthy, the other is stamina-deprived and weighted. There's no way to compare the two.

1)Weighted Piccolo faces Tagoma,gets owned in 2 hits,he is visible exhausted,Tagoma does not even bother dodging his 1 punch and simply tanks it.
2)Base Gohan faces Tagoma/Ginyu(who is stated to be stronger than the Tagoma Piccolo faced)gets hit by 2 times and by a bunch of ki blasts,is exhausted as well but not as much as Piccolo,Tagoma/Ginyu easily blocks his attacks but he bothers blocking his attacks.

* If base Goku was above SS3 Gotenks he'd be many times above Good Buu, meaning he'd be able to beat Basil harder than Fat Buu did Dabra. Instead he has to go Super Saiyan to beat him and the rest of U9, who are all weaker than Basil. And Tupper was binding Goku without issue even before he raised his weight (you can clearly see Goku struggling and trying to move), you should rewatch the scene.

I rewatched just in case.
Goku and Vegeta were handling them fairly easily and blocking their hits,what gave them trouble is their numbers and coordination(as stated by Whis)and they both knocked a few of them in their base form,after that everything was overkill since as soon as their coordination fall apart base Goku and Vegeta owned them.
Tupper increased his weight to bind Goku,then 18 blasted him of(at this point Tupper lowered his weight to jump since when he held Goku the floor was crumbling),then they do their combination attack and launches himself at 18 and 18 throws him out.

First off, you are saying he wants to impress Goku. He says he wants to show Goku how much he progressed, the obvious implication being "compared to the last he had seen him fight". But even if he wanted to impress Goku, he could impress him by showing how much he had progressed from his ROF self; it could've meant he had just regained a lot of his former power. Anything else is your speculation.

So you mean he would try to impress him with his progress by being still weaker than his 11 year old self?
Nothing states that Rof Gohan was weaker than his cell games self(him barely be able to transform to a ssj is due to his rustiness)
the only thing Gohan notes is that he was not able to access his full power in base(aka Ultimate).

First off, Dabra and Babidi can't sense ki and Trunks can. Secondly, the statement was there for a reason and to fit in with the whole theme of Gohan being a far cry from his fighting days, it wasn't meant to swerve you into thinking Trunks had the wrong idea.

I agree the statement was there for a reason to prove that Gohan is not a fighter anymore which goes in line with what Piccolo told to Trunks before he visited him.
I am pretty sure making power comparissons wasn't the intention of the statement.

[LowRyder2005]

Trunks had based Gohan in front of him for days but somehow according to you he never sensed his ki? If you actually wanted to be fair, you'd conclude there's nothing even remotely concrete to theorize he wouldn't know how strong Gohan was. Unless you want a confirmation each and every time a character is sensing another character even when it's not necessary. Besides, sensing a character is not the same as checking someone's panties: characters usually feel each other's ki subconsciously (i.e. when Freeza and Cold were getting near the Earth, when SS3 Goku appears, when Super Buu appears). This is a constant in the entirity of the series, they only concentrate when they need to lock-up some ki far away that doesn't stand out. And why would he even make the comparison if he didn't know how strong Gohan was in the past when untransformed? He's taken aback because base Gohan is not as strong as a SS2?

The point i am trying to make is if he could sense how strong a fully powered up base Gohan is then he could the same for Goku and Vegeta.

How does it even relate? So he wants to see how much Goku and Vegeta progressed. Maybe he thought they had some other transformation he couldn't sense? Maybe Goku and Vegeta were able to conceal their ki better than Gohan? Maybe Gohan was easier to read? I seriously don't understand what you're trying to say, but it's clear Trunks has a good grasp of base Gohan's strength when he sees him since he implies he has less power than before and he thinks he might be not be sensing everything from Goku and Vegeta.

* Nope. Gohan ate a Senzu (CTRL+F tells me this "Senzu" has been written a whoppin' 13 times including one or two of my posts to you, and yet apparently you keep not factoring this in) right after he was almost killed by Tagoma's initial sneak attack. He's not exhausted at any time when Tagoma actually starts fighting; he's literally at his 100%.
* Nope. Tupper has base Goku in a bearhug and you clearly can him exerting his strength and trying to break free long before it's even revealed Tupper can increase his weight (0:10/ 0:12; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdHAoRSSLg), let alone when it's suggested Tupper actually started to increase it. Even if you wanted to play it by claiming that he's actually weighting a lot even before he states he can increase his weight and starts transforming, #18 lifts Skull Tupper him all the same when he's weighting more than the initial Tupper (he has the skull-like features that appear only after increasing his weight, meaning that even if he had lowered his weight he was heavier than in the beginning); so either #18 can blast a foe in the same realm of power of base Goku, meaning they are all in the same ballpark, or she can lift more than base Goku, meaning she's outright stronger. Never mind it should be physically easier for Goku to lift him anyways in the beginning (with the lighter, humanoid-faced Tupper), since the weight is on his entire body while #18 is only using one arm to throw Skull-like Tupper -- even assuming he was somewhat lighter than when he made the crater on Goku's back, since it's never directly stated he was weighting less at any point.
* Doubtful. If Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks like you claim at all times he'd finger-flick Basil who's inferior to Good Buu, he wouldn't even bother "blocking his hits", he'd have waa[...]aay less trouble than Copy-Vegeta against Gotenks. He certainly wouldn't need Vegeta's back-up and he certainly would power up in base if he was suppressed. Instead they first try to beat everyone in base, and when it's implied they probably can't (at least easily) they power up to Super Saiyan. He'd literally need to raise his base strength minimally if he was above any regular SS3 in the Buu arc to ring out the entire team.

At this point, I'm fairly convinced either you're trolling or you've realized you're wrong and are just horribly in denial. You've basically only added incorrect or imprecise claims since what Trunks had actually said and didn't even bother re-evaluating his stance when corrected. Instead of repeating yourself over and over, be mature, accept you were mistaken and move on. There's nothing shameful about that.

So you mean he would try to impress him with his progress by being still weaker than his 11 year old self?
Nothing states that Rof Gohan was weaker than his cell games self(him barely be able to transform to a ssj is due to his rustiness)
the only thing Gohan notes is that he was not able to access his full power in base(aka Ultimate).

You know intellectual discussion took a dive when the hypocritical "be open-minded" invitation -- taken to the absurd ("but why, maybe Trunks didn't even happen to indirectly sense base Gohan when he was right in front of him for days") appears only when friggin' convenient, being replaced by apparently limited comprehension when it doesn't favor your argument. Anyway, the logical answer is: yes, absolutely. Because Gohan in ROF was weak. Trunks spells it for you that, even after getting retrained by Piccolo, Gohan still isn't much. But even if it wasn't clear, Gohan telling that to Goku might easily be the same thing someone who's re-taking driving lessons after getting rusty would say: I'll show you I'm not as incompetent as before. Making improvements over a miserable condition doesn't necessarily correlate with being at your all-time best, but it could easily be something to take pride in.

Let's not forget you're still basically ignoring Trunks' clear, unambiguos statement only because of preconceived (let's not forget arbitrary and as good as any) notions you had ingrained from ROF.

I agree the statement was there for a reason to prove that Gohan is not a fighter anymore which goes in line with what Piccolo told to Trunks before he visited him.
I am pretty sure making power comparissons wasn't the intention of the statement.

Saying someone lacks the power he once possessed is surely not a comparison involving power, after all.

[Whatever]

Trunks had based Gohan in front of him for days but somehow according to you he never sensed his ki? If you actually wanted to be fair, you'd conclude there's nothing even remotely concrete to theorize he wouldn't know how strong Gohan was. Unless you want a confirmation each and every time a character is sensing another character even when it's not necessary. Besides, sensing a character is not the same as checking someone's panties: characters usually feel each other's ki subconsciously (i.e. when Freeza and Cold were getting near the Earth, when SS3 Goku appears, when Super Buu appears). This is a constant in the entirity of the series, they only concentrate when they need to lock-up some ki far away that doesn't stand out. And why would he even make the comparison if he didn't know how strong Gohan was in the past when untransformed? He's taken aback because base Gohan is not as strong as a SS2?

That has not always been the case as mostly the good guys are hiding their energy and their energy is being mostly sensed when they are fighting.
Freeza could be sensed when he was coming to Earth because he did not know how to hide his energy outside of using surpression forms and when Super Buu emerged he went ham on those guys that shoot the dog so of course he could be sensed just like Freeza because they did not even bother to mask their ki,which is not the same case as Gohan since he would not be going to work and not surpress his ki.
Its a different case from someone like Krillin feeling Trunks was holding back against Cell.

How does it even relate? So he wants to see how much Goku and Vegeta progressed. Maybe he thought they had some other transformation he couldn't sense? Maybe Goku and Vegeta were able to conceal their ki better than Gohan? Maybe Gohan was easier to read? I seriously don't understand what you're trying to say, but it's clear Trunks has a good grasp of base Gohan's strength when he sees him since he implies he has less power than before and he thinks he might be not be sensing everything from Goku and Vegeta.

But why would that be the case for them and not Gohan?SSJG and SSJB is one thing since he could not sense god ki but why not the other forms?
You said maybe so you don't know the answer to that,if so why do you hold Trunk's statement so high even if you yourself are not sure how it works?

* Nope. Gohan ate a Senzu (CTRL+F tells me this "Senzu" has been written a whoppin' 13 times including one or two of my posts to you, and yet apparently you keep not factoring this in) right after he was almost killed by Tagoma's initial sneak attack. He's not exhausted at any time when Tagoma actually starts fighting; he's literally at his 100%.

I never said he was not 100% when he started fighting Tagoma,i said he was exhausted after he was damaged by Tagoma/Ginyu,right before he turns super saiyan.I was reffering to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNrdNzkoFLo

* Nope. Tupper has base Goku in a bearhug and you clearly can him exerting his strength and trying to break free long before it's even revealed Tupper can increase his weight (0:10/ 0:12; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdHAoRSSLg), let alone when it's suggested Tupper actually started to increase it. Even if you wanted to play it by claiming that he's actually weighting a lot even before he states he can increase his weight and starts transforming, #18 lifts Skull Tupper him all the same when he's weighting more than the initial Tupper (he has the skull-like features that appear only after increasing his weight, meaning that even if he had lowered his weight he was heavier than in the beginning); so either #18 can blast a foe in the same realm of power of base Goku, meaning they are all in the same ballpark, or she can lift more than base Goku, meaning she's outright stronger. Never mind it should be physically easier for Goku to lift him anyways in the beginning (with the lighter, humanoid-faced Tupper), since the weight is on his entire body while #18 is only using one arm to throw Skull-like Tupper -- even assuming he was somewhat lighter than when he made the crater on Goku's back, since it's never directly stated he was weighting less at any point.

It is never made clear how heavy Tupper was when he held Goku and when he was tossed by 18(if anything it is implied he was heavier when holding Goku since he needed to increase his weight to stop himself from falling down and we know for sure he decreased his weight when 18 blasted him so he could jump).
Also Goku was able to hold Raditz in a full nelson despite being weaker than him before,so a weaker opponent holding a stronger opponent from behind is nothing new.

* Doubtful. If Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks like you claim at all times he'd finger-flick Basil who's inferior to Good Buu, he wouldn't even bother "blocking his hits", he'd have waa[...]aay less trouble than Copy-Vegeta against Gotenks. He certainly wouldn't need Vegeta's back-up and he certainly would power up in base if he was suppressed. Instead they first try to beat everyone in base, and when it's implied they probably can't (at least easily) they power up to Super Saiyan. He'd literally need to raise his base strength minimally if he was above any regular SS3 in the Buu arc to ring out the entire team.

You see,the reason i had to repeat some things before.You say that for Goku yet you do not say the same for Gohan,which is weird considering how weak you claim him to be in the Tagoma/Ginyu example.
They were giving base Goku trouble due to their gimmick and teamwork,heck Goku and Vegeta defeated most of team in their base form with 1 or 2hits.
Saying why Goku did not 1 shot them is like saying why Goku did not turn super saiyan(since as soon as he turned super saiyan their gimmicks and teamwork did not make a difference as Vegeta showcased when he turned super saiyan only because he was trapped by their gimmicks).
Goku was holding back whatever it was to play around or for fake tension to begin with.

At this point, I'm fairly convinced either you're trolling or you've realized you're wrong and are just horribly in denial. You've basically only added incorrect or imprecise claims since what Trunks had actually said and didn't even bother re-evaluating his stance when corrected. Instead of repeating yourself over and over, be mature, accept you were mistaken and move on. There's nothing shameful about that.

You know its one thing if you think i am wrong but thinking i am trolling or i am immature for not agreeing with you is immature in itself because i have admitted before i am wrong but i don't believe this is the case here.
Since for example base Vegeta destroying ssj3 Gotenks is not something that can be debated or one can view wrong,it is a simply battle with straightforward results.

Let's not forget you're still basically ignoring Trunks' clear, unambiguos statement only because of preconceived (let's not forget arbitrary and as good as any) notions you had ingrained from ROF.

Trunk's statement is pretty clear but whatever or not is accurate is another thing entirelly,which is what i was disagreeing with,you have the same issue with the notion that Piccolo for whatever reason would never be able to catch up to Buu.

You know intellectual discussion took a dive when the hypocritical "be open-minded" invitation -- taken to the absurd ("but why, maybe Trunks didn't even happen to indirectly sense base Gohan when he was right in front of him for days") appears only when friggin' convenient, being replaced by apparently limited comprehension when it doesn't favor your argument. Anyway, the logical answer is: yes, absolutely. Because Gohan in ROF was weak. Trunks spells it for you that, even after getting retrained by Piccolo, Gohan still isn't much. But even if it wasn't clear, Gohan telling that to Goku might easily be the same thing someone who's re-taking driving lessons after getting rusty would say: I'll show you I'm not as incompetent as before. Making improvements over a miserable condition doesn't necessarily correlate with being at your all-time best, but it could easily be something to take pride in.

You know its quite a bit ironic that you blame me for the same thing you do(for example if ssj3 Gotenks faced base Goku/Vegeta and they lost i would gladly believe your retcon theory).
You ignore a clear and simple result we saw in where base Goku/Vegeta stand and you slap it with the retcon excuse just because it does not fit with your narrative you set on your mind before with the 2 base theory.

Then again blaming me for trolling or being immature and playing the 'you are wrong i am right you are just afraid to admit it' card is about as low as a discussion can get before it devolves to youtube comment quality so we better end this discussion here.

[LowRyder2005]

That has not always been the case as mostly the good guys are hiding their energy and their energy is being mostly sensed when they are fighting.
Freeza could be sensed when he was coming to Earth because he did not know how to hide his energy outside of using surpression forms and when Super Buu emerged he went ham on those guys that shoot the dog so of course he could be sensed just like Freeza because they did not even bother to mask their ki,which is not the same case as Gohan since he would not be going to work and not surpress his ki.
Its a different case from someone like Krillin feeling Trunks was holding back against Cell.

Still not addressing my point; let's even assume for the sake of your argument that Trunks never sensed him, even though it feels very unnatural/forced/whatever. What the heck is Trunks comparing him to? Why is he making the comparison in the first place? He's disappointed Gohan doesn't reach some power from years ago he can't actually quantify since he doesn't even know how strong Gohan was back then? He's taken aback and says he doesn't feel the same "brimming" power. Brimming meaning that it was "great, fantastic, splendid" or something.
The only remaning possibility I can think of, for the scene to make work with this particularly bizarre outlook, is that Trunks somehow felt the need to reflect on the fact the strength of SS2 Gohan wasn't oozing from base Gohan; notwithstanding that it's something he should even less surprised of in this scenario since it wouldn't be any different that the base Gohan he had left the last time.

But why would that be the case for them and not Gohan?SSJG and SSJB is one thing since he could not sense god ki but why not the other forms?
You said maybe so you don't know the answer to that,if so why do you hold Trunk's statement so high even if you yourself are not sure how it works?

I never stated that Trunks or other characters could absolutely "sense" SS2, SS3 or something. Or at the very least I've never stated it's implied he could easily deduce its power or gain perfect information. This is obviously not intended in the series, otherwise nobody would have doubts about the outcome of any fight. I did say there have been character who at most are able to guess someone may be really powerful and suppressing themselves, but it's not like these characters are omniscient for every power-related matter; at most you have people deducing someone is stronger than what they'll letting on.
Now, starting from the premise that Gohan is obviously in base and Trunks can already deduce he's weaker by sensing his base form, with Goku and Vegeta he's simply expecting them to show off something else; he had probably already sensed they were in top shape or stronger and wanted to see at which point they had arrived with what transformations/techniques they possessed. It's not necessarily in contradiction with Gohan's situation.

I never said he was not 100% when he started fighting Tagoma,i said he was exhausted after he was damaged by Tagoma/Ginyu,right before he turns super saiyan.

That Gohan should still be at 100% or something reasonably close, regardless of the moment he spends to recatch his breath. In the scene before he just sucker-blasted away Tagoma with a ki blast to keep him off Piccolo and that's literally his only action after he got his stamina replenished.
Still, the actual point was that quibbling over this is completely irrelevant. That Piccolo could be at 1% of his strength for all you know: he doesn't get a Senzu, while Gohan is at 80%, 90% or close to 100%. It makes literally no sense to make a comparison: you don't even know what you are comparing.

It is never made clear how heavy Tupper was when he held Goku and when he was tossed by 18(if anything it is implied he was heavier when holding Goku since he needed to increase his weight to stop himself from falling down and we know for sure he decreased his weight when 18 blasted him so he could jump).
Also Goku was able to hold Raditz in a full nelson despite being weaker than him before,so a weaker opponent holding a stronger opponent from behind is nothing new.

Oh, I wouldn't get ahead of myself just because I didn't bother making a fuss over your claim: you don't know if it decreased since it's never stated nor unambiguously implied. It's just your argument based on your impression and your impression only. I'm following it for convenience's sake here because it's probably the less unreasonable thing you've said so far; but I could simply claim he had kept his weight and had just used bukūjutsu to levitate -- restoring his weight the moment he landed on #18.

Besides, this actually doesn't address what I said at all. It is abundantly implied that Tupper starts raising his weight after he had already demonstrated enough strength to bind Goku, like I showed you in the video above; since there's no way #18 could full-nelson SS3 Gotenks in the Buu arc, or no way Gohan could bearhug Beerus, it's obvious Tupper and Goku need to be relatively close, same goes for #18 who can hurt Tupper. If Goku is normally so much above Gotenks, the gap should already be higher than 1:50; #18 isn't that far from Tupper. It sounds very hard to think Tupper could do crap against base Goku including putting him in a bearhug. Unless you think a farmer can full-nelson Piccolo Let's even say Daimao. Goku = 100; Tupper = 2.1; #18 = 2 -> that's a possible representation of what you are arguing for; funny thing is that even by multiplying a reasonable estimation of #18's power * 100 you would normally get a value that's way, way below SS3 Gotenks'; Gotenks should be at least many thousands of times stronger since Fusion should be anywhere between 20 and 100 per various guidebooks, and SS3 is at least a 400 (and I'm even assuming the kids pre-ROSAT are weaker than #18).
Of course, I'm not claiming there's 100% certainty, but there's overwhelming evidence in favor of #18 being relative to base Goku. The fact that you need to resort to a frame per frame justification to even leave the possibility Goku might still be abnormally stronger than #18 honestly speaks for itself about where that scene would've lead most viewers. You may as well start considering #18 also surpassed SS3 Gotenks, at this point.

You see,the reason i had to repeat some things before.You say that for Goku yet you do not say the same for Gohan,which is weird considering how weak you claim him to be in the Tagoma/Ginyu example.
They were giving base Goku trouble due to their gimmick and teamwork,heck Goku and Vegeta defeated most of team in their base form with 1 or 2hits.
Saying why Goku did not 1 shot them is like saying why Goku did not turn super saiyan(since as soon as he turned super saiyan their gimmicks and teamwork did not make a difference as Vegeta showcased when he turned super saiyan only because he was trapped by their gimmicks).
Goku was holding back whatever it was to play around or for fake tension to begin with.

And I'll say it again: you are repeating stuff that's completely irrelevant, chiefly.
First off, I'd say Tagoma-Ginyu is clearly toying with Gohan and testing out his body. He's not even the same person Tagoma was, so this idea he'd act the same doesn't add up. I'd also say there's a good chance that if the blows had landed he wouldn't have suffered damage.
But this still doesn't matter, because Piccolo was tired and weighted when he punched Tagoma; Gohan was rested. You don't know how debilitated was Piccolo. Even if I conceded you'd have no argument because you don't know how a healthy Piccolo compares to a healthy Gohan. Let's say Tagoma-Ginyu needed to parry the rested Gohan's blows? I'd say Piccolo would've probably punched him way harder and killed him on spot, given that a few months of training later with the same weak Gohan it's revealed he's above SS Gohan and SS2 Gohan.

It's made very clear that Goku has all the interest in the world to get rid of Lavenda, Basil and Bergamo as soon as possible. Goku also has many chances to take out Basil and Lavenda, since he singles them out many times. The only other thing factoring is that he wants to save stamina by not spamming his Super Saiyan. If he doesn't defeat them in base form when he's in difficulty and risking an elimination it should be because he can't, but still, since you're trying to tiptoe around half of the statements in Super from the Black arc onwards I'm sure this might also seem unreasonable.

You know its one thing if you think i am wrong but thinking i am trolling or i am immature for not agreeing with you is immature in itself because i have admitted before i am wrong but i don't believe this is the case here.
Since for example base Vegeta destroying ssj3 Gotenks is not something that can be debated or one can view wrong,it is a simply battle with straightforward results.

Well, since you've been presenting one bold argument after another, it's not like I couldn't objectively make theories about Copy-Vegeta's, Gotenks' strength in Super or the existence of two different base forms; which in fact would probably make more sense than trying to distort every other power-related notion and undermining the narrative paradigms like the characters usually acting rationally.
I have no problems reiterating the concept: to me you are either trolling, immature or you just can't stand being corrected. Any of these would be in minimum doses, obviously, but just enough to keep a conversation devoid of actual stimuli going. The alternative is thinking you can't understand the basis of a logical reasoning, and I'd rather not start off the assumption you are stupid. I'll stress again this entire started with you arguing against Trunks' words when you didn't even remember correctly what they were about. I take great issue since you're basically wasting my time in a long discussion that's going nowhere. I, or I dare say anyone somewhat intellectually honest, would've re-evaluated their claims the moment I they told Trunks said "Gohan doesn't possess the same power he had when I last saw him". Period. Since this is a Dragon Ball board, of course it would become a "let's see who drops the ball first" type of deal more than a healthy confrontation about ideas or a simple correction, but expect to be treated accordingly.

You know its quite a bit ironic that you blame me for the same thing you do(for example if ssj3 Gotenks faced base Goku/Vegeta and they lost i would gladly believe your retcon theory).
You ignore a clear and simple result we saw in where base Goku/Vegeta stand and you slap it with the retcon excuse just because it does not fit with your narrative you set on your mind before with the 2 base theory.

Then again blaming me for trolling or being immature and playing the 'you are wrong i am right you are just afraid to admit it' card is about as low as a discussion can get before it devolves to youtube comment quality so we better end this discussion here.

My two cents is that they'd simply state that Gotenks was out of shape, that he re-trained in secret and handwave the rest, assuming they wanted to use him in some form. But, welp, if that happened, given how part of the Super's fanbase thinks and acts, I think you'd instead find many people claiming Gotenks had become massively stronger "in secret" and that he could solo the entirity of Z in base form with 10% of his strength. For some absurd reason, or some visceral desire to make this or that (usually) favorite character super strong. I'm obviously not pushing the retcon as an absolute truth, but I'd rather do it if you keep feeding me nonsense and super-convenient explanations that look more like damage control intended to carefully zig-zag the possible subversion of what you previously believed. There are some indirect implications in the post-BOG, ROF is irrelevant, plus the Copy-Vegeta arc reinforces the idea the base form is really strong. Afterwards, though, there's just a load of stuff that goes against the idea; and even those those things that may look off are fairly easy to reconcile in the bigger narrative since they all happen in very specific contexts (characters warming up or training).

Never mind that, again, this exchange would've stopped at Trunks breaking your narrative of Gohan being stronger than his Cell Game self.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan was ridiculously weak as well as the other z fighters. Tagoma was the only soldier that surpassed the ginyu force based on sorbets statement. Shisami was weaker than the ginyu force, yet relative to the z fighters although weaker than gohan.

The Rof arc is just a retelling of the movie, in which Frieza was stated to be 1.3 million in his first form after training, so that explains the power scaling of every z fighter being weaker than the ginyu force bar Gohan and Tagoma.

[dragon boss z]

Gohan was ridiculously weak as well as the other z fighters. Tagoma was the only soldier that surpassed the ginyu force based on sorbets statement. Shisami was weaker than the ginyu force, yet relative to the z fighters although weaker than gohan.

The Rof arc is just a retelling of the movie, in which Frieza was stated to be 1.3 million in his first form after training, so that explains the power scaling of every z fighter being weaker than the ginyu force bar Gohan and Tagoma.

This seems to be the case. Really bad writing imo.