Differences between the Turtle and Crane Schools

[TheZFighter]

What would you say are the fundamental differences between the Turtle School and the Crane School, in terms of teachings, style, values, etc?

[KBABZ]

I think most obviously the teachings of the Crane School focus much more on outright taking out your opponent as much as the rules allow; Chiaotzu for example used a move that could have killed Krillin in said match, and Tien of course eliminated Yamcha not by knockout or ringout, but by breaking his leg. The Crane School has a much more fanatic focus on one's honour to the point of detriment and distraction; Tsuru's extreme behaviour in Tien's match, as well as him working with his hated older brother simply to kill his former student out of spite (and losing both times!) is evidence of this. Also, while it may simply be Tien and Chiaotzu's own particular styles, but it appears that the Crane School focuses a lot more on supernatural moves like Bukujitzu and growing two extra arms (although I doubt Tsuru Sen'nin came up with The Volleyball Play).

The Kame School meanwhile doesn't seem to focus on unique moves or fighting styles, and more goes with improving one's own performance, as exemplified through the weight training and lack of teaching any moves. It's up to the student to figure out the actual fighting part, which makes it compatible for already established fighters such as Yamcha and Krillin to be taught under Kame Sen'nin.

[Lionel]

Ideology and technique offers appear to be the most significant disparities. Crane School emphasises success through brutality, the mission is absolute and achieving it permits for any measures to be taken. Contrast that with the Hermit school which is more fundamentally basic yet ethically upstanding by promoting growth through good work and effort. It doesn't have the same technical benefits as the Crane school does, but its students appear to be the more beloved in society.

[nickzambuto]

The Turtle School's methodology echoes the classic lesson of the Tortoise and the Hare. Slow, methodical, and steadfast over speed and pride. If we look at Tenshinhan's fighting style, he's all about rapid and furious combos, but this means he works off nothing but muscle memory and expands his energy too fast. The Turtle style is plotting and tactical. Not one move is made, before first considering every angle, possibility, and the potential aftermath of that move. It can also be blindingly quick, but not in a furious, energy expansive way. They only unleash their speed when the timing is just right for a devastating attack.

[nickzambuto]

The Turtle School's methodology echoes the classic lesson of the Tortoise and the Hare. Slow, methodical, and steadfast over speed and pride. If we look at Tenshinhan's fighting style, he's all about rapid and furious combos, but this means he works off nothing but muscle memory and expands his energy too fast. The Turtle style is plotting and tactical. Not one move is made, before first considering every angle, possibility, and the potential aftermath of that move. It can also be blindingly quick, but not in a furious, energy expansive way. They only unleash their speed when the timing is just right for a devastating attack.

[Akira]

There have been some good points made so far. I would like to mention one other major difference between the schools and their basic outlook on training and improving that seems to affect the students of each long term into the later arcs of the story. The Crane school emphasized ki mastery, and through that, early access to devastating killing techniques with unique support skills to give its students an arsenal of moves to use. Dodonpa, Kikoho, Taiyoken, Bukujutsu, telekenesis, and multi-form techniques were displayed by Tenshinhan and Choutzu early on in the series. Roshi lamented that Crane hermit had taught them some of these techniques, as some were not only deadly, but potentially debilitating to the user if used repeatedly.

As we saw all the way back in the previous tournament (21st Budokai), Roshi knew some tricky moves himself, hypnosis, and that Lightning Flash move he used on Goku (which was only broken out of thanks to Goku's final appearance in his Oozaru form) and apparently was also used to defeat Son Gohan at some point in the past. Roshi would later use the Mafuba on Piccolo Daimao, proving that his own teachings included some deadly and dangerous attacks that he did not intend to teach his students unless the circumstances required it (such as Goku learning the Mafuba much, much later in DBS)

The Turtle school methodology seemed to be more a much more strategic "play the long game" type of teaching. The training focused solely on enhancing endurance and overall stamina. Roshi also seemed to take delight in surprising his students with their own progress. Recall when Goku and Krillin removed their weighted training shells finally, to find that they could jump much, much higher than they could before. Or, when they started the preliminaries, and Goku suggested that he and Krillin should "hold back" after a simple finger touch from Goku knocked his first opponent out from something he didn't even intend as an attack.

The boys wanted to know when Roshi would teach them fighting moves and special techniques, he said they weren't ready. He wanted to prepare them fully, let them compete, and then ultimately defeat them in the tournaments. In his eyes, this would keep them humble, not arrogant, and keep them striving to grow stronger still. He knew full well, that even as early as the 21st Budokai, that they were already in the top 1% best of the world's fighters. If they figured that out, they might rest on their laurels, and stop trying to get better, thereby never realizing their full potential as martial artists.

Note that when Goku finally won the 23rd Budokai and was declared the world's strongest, he spared Piccolo, partially because he didn't want Kami to die, but primarily because he saw Piccolo as the only foe who could give him a good fight ever again. He, for the first and only time in the story, rested on his laurels and improved slowly and not as much as he could have over the next five years. It wouldn't be until Raditz came along and showed him what was possible beyond his current level that he would never rest at striving to be the strongest ever again.

Then there is the age old debate of "who's strongest, Tenshinhan or Krillin?" Which I have no interest in debating, nor do I want to derail this thread into that, but I want to point out a couple bits of food for thought in this area without focusing solely on that. Tenshinhan does train more than Krillin, but when offered the chance to be trained by Roshi after the 22nd Budokai, Tenshinhan refused, stating that he didn't think they were allowed to change schools, despite having abandoned the Crane. He continued to train himself in the methods of what he knew, and that was ki mastery and the Crane style of training. This is seen in the story where he was able to quickly pick up the Mafuba, and even much later when he was able to fire Kikoho blasts continually during his (in)famous encounter with Imperfect Cell.

His training with Kami for the saiyans afforded him the more advanced ki sensing techniques, and the things Goku had trouble mastering back before the 23rd Budokai, I imagine Tenshinhan took to Mr. Popo's teachings rather quickly. Kami gave the warriors the weighted undershirts and such that Goku had employed previously. This, I would suspect Tenshinhan had more difficulty with, as he had never trained in weighted state before, an aspect that I believe Krillin likely excelled at much quicker.

The point being is the difference in the foundations of the two schools impacted how their later trainings would go, and how they would progress with personally initiated training down the line. I believe Goku and Krillin, when the times came, found that their bodies prepped and trained for endurance and stamina allowed them to take blow after blow (much like Rocky in the Rocky films) and last long enough to find a weakness in their opponent's attacks. Also, much in line with how Roshi loved pushing them beyond their expectations, they found on their own the mastery of ki and ki attacks. Goku would be taught many ki maneuvers, and would borrow many that he saw performed once. Krillin is the standout student of the Turtle school, because he developed several devastating moves for various situations all on his own. This is one area where he is actually superior to Goku, as Goku has very few moves in his arsenal that weren't taught to him or borrowed from someone else. Goku's strength was in adapting moves for new or unexpected purposes. Remember when he fired the Kamehameha out of his feet to attack Piccolo at the tournament? Or what about combination moves such as Kaioken x4 + Kamehameha against Vegeta, or the Warp Kamehameha (Instant Transmission + Super Kamehameha) that he used on Perfect Cell? That was where Goku excelled.

Tenshinhan, by comparison, was always able to use stronger and stronger versions of his ki techniques, and even got really buff leading up to the androids part of the story , but his endurance and stamina were never anywhere near what the Turtle students had developed. Their foundational basis behind their training was better in that regard, so they were "tougher" even if their ki techniques were never quite as powerful or able to be used as often. Goku took a thrashing in many cases, and still managed to get up and keep fighting when the likes of Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and even Vegeta were down for the count much sooner. We have Roshi to thank for Goku's ability to last so long, and be able to survive long enough to find a weakness.

Krillin is no slouch either, often critiqued for not always fighting, he is a master strategist, and I would compare him to Vegeta in that sense. When Yamcha was killed by the Saibaman, Krillin used a technique that single handedly killed most of the remaining saibamen in one shot. Krillin would have killed Nappa with the Kienzan, had Vegeta not warned him to dodge it. When they were on Namek, he knew to use the ki suppression techniques taught to him by Kami to hide from Freeza's men and Vegeta on multiple occasions. Most importantly, he knew when not to fight, or when not to fight any longer. As a kid, he'd get emotional and charge his opponents when he realized he was losing. As an adult, he'd overcome that. He used a brilliant strategy to hit Piccolo from behind with a dual ki blast, then move in and attack him from above. It was enough to make Piccolo question in his mind if conquering the world again would be as easy as he'd hoped when the likes of Krillin was already becoming near threat level to him. Yet, when Piccolo stopped holding back, and Krillin realized he was out matched, he gave up, and made Roshi extremely proud of the progress he'd made. Later, when the combined efforts of Vegeta, Future Trunks, Tenshinhan and Piccolo were no match for the duo of #17 and #18, rather than blindly join the fray, he tried diplomacy. Asking why they were doing what they were doing, and why they were after Goku, trying to find another solution.

Tenshinhan got his arm punched right off by Nappa, whereas Krillin took a kick from the brute that left him too weak to move, but still conscious and aware of what was going on, body intact. In fact, Krillin, despite not being able to outright defeat any of the later foes in the series, let alone do much against them at all, is surprisingly resilient when attacked by them. Not getting killed outright alone is a pretty impressive "feat" all its own. All thanks to Roshi's early teaching and training methods that he would follow most of his life.

Tenshinhan never learned or developed new techniques, he just made his existing arsenal stronger through advanced ki training. He was limited by his training foundation, which focused on ki mastery. If compared to Goku or Krillin, his reserves of ki energy are probably much, much deeper, and he has shown he can use high level attacks repeatedly before tiring whereas Goku and Krillin had to use them more sparingly, lest they deplete their reserves much quicker. He was superior to them both in that regard, however, he was always a step behind in that he wasn't taught the basics of high level endurance and stamina training. Tenshinhan was not as flexible with his moves as Goku, nor as strategic a fighter as Krillin.

What can I say about Yamcha you might ask? He was a gifted fighter, no doubt, who was given the proper fundamentals, but at a later age than the other two turtle students, and bad habits had already been formed. He also wasn't quite the fighting prodigy like Goku, Krillin, and even Tenshinhan were. Tenshinhan, I would argue, had the potential to be the greatest of the human fighters, but he was limited by his training fundamentals that were backwards to the way the others were taught to develop, and it ultimately held him back.

Those are some of the examples I see in the series that showcase the differences between the fighters, their schools, and how the long term payout was for using those methods for self improvement. Thanks for reading this far, if you didn't gloss over my "wall of text" as I'm often accused of creating.

[KBABZ]

The boys wanted to know when Roshi would teach them fighting moves and special techniques, he said they weren't ready. He wanted to prepare them fully, let them compete, and then ultimately defeat them in the tournaments.

Probably a different angle, but this is where my belief comes from that the Turtle School is about teaching you new fighting moves outright, but more about improving your fundamentals, which is more important. His training with Goku and Krillin focused specifically in these areas, like the Milk Delivery, ploughing fields, and finding the stone. Goku and Krillin, being young and cocky, assumed that the secret to winning a match was to have one powerful knock-out super move of secrecy, which sounds much more like the Crane School way of thinking to me. And this outlook bore fruit; when Goku focused on weight training, he was able to catch up to and defeat his Saiyan bretherin and then was able to take down the Ginyu Force, and then give Cell a run for his money.

The other facet of this training is that it's compatible for a wide variety of fighters; it's less about teaching you a new form of martial arts, and it instead leaves the whole technique/moves thing up to the students themselves so that they can find their own path in battle. When Tien uses the Kamehameha, it feels like he's pinching somebody else's move that doesn't fit his style, but when Goku and Krillin use Taiyoken, it feels like another move in their eccentric grab bag of moves.

when offered the chance to be trained by Roshi after the 22nd Budokai, Tenshinhan refused, stating that he didn't think they were allowed to change schools, despite having abandoned the Crane.

I always felt that this was a respect thing; he still respected Tsuru and Tao quite a bit and drove them away with the minimum amount required in the 23rd WMAT, so taking on Roshi's teachings would have been incredibly awkward.

Goku's strength was in adapting moves for new or unexpected purposes. Remember when he fired the Kamehameha out of his feet to attack Piccolo at the tournament?

Goku I noticed had a knack for "propellant" Kamehamehas in the pre-Raditz part of the series; he used one to deliver one of the hardest punches ever against Krillin in their match at the 22nd WMAT, and of course he used it with his one remaining hand to deliver the killing blow on King Piccolo.

[Olympian]

I`m going to argue how much less Yamcha was a prodigy when from Baba`s Demon to the 22nd Bokukai he had to catch up to both Kuririn and Goku`s +5 years of training under Roshi and managed to reach a point of mastering the school`s main attack whithout being taught.

Something Kuririn wasn`t capable of doing even when he tried to "go all out" against Chiatzu like Yamcha had done with Tenshinhan.

There`s also the fact that for all the validation of "bad habits" - he was indeed older than the others when he became a student - he was still the among the first, if not the first to have a named attack, to fully master the Kamehameha by the first time he uses it and was also the first character with a fully controlled Ki projectile.

[Akira]

I agree with all the points you both made in response to mine. Good ways to flesh things out further. I even agree with what you said about Yamcha, the more I thought about it, the more I agreed. By normal human standards, he too was a prodigy. In comparison to everyone else, he just realized he couldn't keep up and seemed to not try as hard after the Saiyan arc.

[Lord Frieza]

To build on what others have said, the two schools differences partly due to function.

Turtle Style takes the focus of many real life ones, self defence. While the art teachs you how to fight its purpose was not attack, funnilty enough like its name sake the turtle. Even the Kamehameha is not in and of itself a killing technique, while it can be used for that purpose it can also be used just to harm or push back foes without threatening their life. It's style is also well balanced.

Crane Style on the other hand is an assassins fighting style i.e. its inteanded use is for killing. It's focus is more on raw damage output, striking vital points and finishing your foe quickly. This is why the Dodonpa was considered more powerful then the basic Kamehameha, its a more focused attack intended to kill or serusly harm on contact, one is like a fist the other like a blade. This is also partly why psychic powers, flying and forbbiden techniques are part of its teachings, such abilities would prove invaluable in assassinastion. There's also an underlying tone of arragence to the style.