If death was permanent

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Doctor.
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If death was permanent

Post by Doctor. » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:57 am

If the dragon balls couldn't revive people, which arcs would feel appropriate to kill off some characters?

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:42 pm

A JoJo-esque approach.

- Muten Roshi = dies valiantly against Piccolo Daimao.
- Yamcha and Chiaotzu = die against Nappa.
- Krillin = dies against Freeza.
- Goku = survives against Raditz and just takes a stroll to some other, unseen, strange plane of reality to train with the North Kaio on Kami's suggestion, survives against Freeza, survives the heart virus, sacrifices himself against Cell; returns for the Buu arc (and this is basically the first time a dead charcter is seen interacting with the main cast) and ultimately solves everything as a dead guy. Doesn't get revived at the end. Every dead person makes a cameo in the end to give the energy to defeat Kid Buu.

Random notes:
* Dragon Balls can't revive people, of course.
* Piccolo is apparently killed by Nappa, but it's revealed he is still hanging on for dear life at the end of the fight. Tien still loses half of his arm against Nappa, because - honestly - the scene looked really cool. He gets a CC-made metal hand later.
* People search the Namek Dragon Balls to repair the damage caused to the Earth by the battle between Goku and Vegeta, because of some shenanigans like the damage being too huge to repair with their regular Dragon Balls.
* No complete extermination in the Buu arc, obviously; Buu does kill however a good chunk of the Earth's population.

Dragon Ball Super proceeds with Gohan and Vegeta as leads, Gohan taking on Goku's role, with Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Tien (and well, I suppose Mr. Buu as well) as the back-up fighters in the beginning. Everything goes on the same (without deaths, because *coff* lack of character arcs). Oh, and the six Saiyans for the ritual become five.

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by Doctor. » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:00 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:A JoJo-esque approach.

- Muten Roshi = dies valiantly against Piccolo Daimao.
- Yamcha and Chiaotzu = die against Nappa.
- Krillin = dies against Freeza.
- Goku = survives against Raditz and just takes a stroll to some other, unseen, strange plane of reality to train with the North Kaio on Kami's suggestion, survives against Freeza, survives the heart virus, sacrifices himself against Cell; returns for the Buu arc (and this is basically the first time a dead charcter is seen interacting with the main cast) and ultimately solves everything as a dead guy. Doesn't get revived at the end. Every dead person makes a cameo in the end to give the energy to defeat Kid Buu.

Random notes:
* Dragon Balls can't revive people, of course.
* Piccolo is apparently killed by Nappa, but it's revealed he is still hanging on for dear life at the end of the fight. Tien still loses half of his arm against Nappa, because - honestly - the scene looked really cool. He gets a CC-made metal hand later.
* People search the Namek Dragon Balls to repair the damage caused to the Earth by the battle between Goku and Vegeta, because of some shenanigans like the damage being too huge to repair with their regular Dragon Balls.
* No complete extermination in the Buu arc, obviously; Buu does kill however a good chunk of the Earth's population.

Dragon Ball Super proceeds with Gohan and Vegeta as leads, Gohan taking on Goku's role, with Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Tien (and well, I suppose Mr. Buu as well) as the back-up fighters in the beginning. Everything goes on the same (without deaths, because *coff* lack of character arcs). Oh, and the six Saiyans for the ritual become five.
How would you handle Vegeta's development during the Freeza and Boo arcs if he isn't killed off? I'd say you could get away with keeping Vegeta alive in the Freeza arc, but his death against Boo is pretty integral to his arc.

I'd also kill Tenshinhan back in the Saiyan arc, considering he does nothing for the rest of the series.

Introducing some new characters would probably be necessary for the series to work if death was permanent (or just be very, very conservative in regards to deaths) but it's an interesting subject to speculate on.

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:15 pm

Doctor. wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:A JoJo-esque approach.

- Muten Roshi = dies valiantly against Piccolo Daimao.
- Yamcha and Chiaotzu = die against Nappa.
- Krillin = dies against Freeza.
- Goku = survives against Raditz and just takes a stroll to some other, unseen, strange plane of reality to train with the North Kaio on Kami's suggestion, survives against Freeza, survives the heart virus, sacrifices himself against Cell; returns for the Buu arc (and this is basically the first time a dead charcter is seen interacting with the main cast) and ultimately solves everything as a dead guy. Doesn't get revived at the end. Every dead person makes a cameo in the end to give the energy to defeat Kid Buu.

Random notes:
* Dragon Balls can't revive people, of course.
* Piccolo is apparently killed by Nappa, but it's revealed he is still hanging on for dear life at the end of the fight. Tien still loses half of his arm against Nappa, because - honestly - the scene looked really cool. He gets a CC-made metal hand later.
* People search the Namek Dragon Balls to repair the damage caused to the Earth by the battle between Goku and Vegeta, because of some shenanigans like the damage being too huge to repair with their regular Dragon Balls.
* No complete extermination in the Buu arc, obviously; Buu does kill however a good chunk of the Earth's population.

Dragon Ball Super proceeds with Gohan and Vegeta as leads, Gohan taking on Goku's role, with Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, Tien (and well, I suppose Mr. Buu as well) as the back-up fighters in the beginning. Everything goes on the same (without deaths, because *coff* lack of character arcs). Oh, and the six Saiyans for the ritual become five.
How would you handle Vegeta's development during the Freeza and Boo arcs if he isn't killed off? I'd say you could get away with keeping Vegeta alive in the Freeza arc, but his death against Boo is pretty integral to his arc.

I'd also kill Tenshinhan back in the Saiyan arc, considering he does nothing for the rest of the series.
Yeah, it might somewhat hard to pull it off since Vegeta would have no drive to change. Dunno, I feel the series would lack a rival/hard-boiled character to oppose Gohan's goody-two-shoes persona (this is assuming the series would continue, though) and it would mean building another character entirely to play on that kind of conflict much later in the series; maybe I'd just handle the entire Majin Vegeta's fight differently. Something like Vegeta dominating and coming close to erasing Goku during Majin Vegeta vs. Goku, with some moving Goku's speech at the end convincing his old rival inside he had changed given the fact that he couldn't bring himself to smithe his - supposedly loathed - sworn enemy down for good.

So I'd have Vegeta's "I was good all along" revelation during Goku vs. Vegeta; Goku's too battered to help, Vegeta then goes kamikaze against Fat Buu only to have another revealing "jk, not dead" moment afterwards when everyone gets absorbed by Buu. A bit forced, perhaps, but like I said I would go out of my way to keep Vegeta until the end -- at least he has a chance to truly embrace the Earthling's lifestyle.

I wouldn't kill Tenshinhan more for the intrinsic random factor than anything. Kinda like that guy who nobody expects will survive up until the end.

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:35 pm

Roshi dies against Piccolo Sr. with Krillin and Chiaotzu getting so severely hurt that it takes the DBs to fix them.

Goku doesn't die vs Raditz, I'd just have Kami heal him then take him to Kaio's. The reason Kami didn't do this before is because there's a REALLY high chance Goku will drop dead before he even gets to the end of Snake Way and they don't want to risk the others like Piccolo or Krillin dying there too. In this version he'd have to keep track of food, water, sleep and a bunch of other factors that'll way him down that in canon he wouldn't have to consider.

Yamcha, Tenshishan, Chiaotzu and Piccolo can all croak in the Saiyan arc. Since the Earth DBs are gone, I assume the survivors would go to Namek to either find a means of resurrection or to fix the planet.

Assuming the Namekian DBs CAN resurrect people as an exception to the rule, I'd have this happen: Dende, Gohan and Krillin revive everyone killed by Freeza, his men, Nappa and Vegeta but the Grand Elder croaks before they can do anything else like heal Goku or make Vegeta immortal or teleport reinforcements to Namek.

Vegeta and Krillin get killed by Freeza. Goku fights Freeza while Gohan, Bulma and the Namekian survivors get off Namek on her ship (having the DBs teleport people around make cause MASSIVE issues with regards to Goku in the Saiyan arc). Goku and Freeza both die on Namek and with no Grand Elder to pass knowledge of the Namekian tier DBs, Goku, Krillin and Vegeta are permanently dead.

Post Freeza DB is shit so I won't bother with that.
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Re: If death was permanent

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:23 pm

Roshi dies against Piccolo Daimao

Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan die fighting Nappa

Piccolo survives, but he's on the brink of death so the Balls go inert

Kuririn dies on Namek

Goku sacrifices himself against Cell

Goku still gets to keep his body and does his one day on Earth during the Boo arc

Vegeta sacrifices himself against Boo

Enma keeps Vegeta around and sends him to Goku on Kaioshin's planet for them to fuse into Vegetto and go to Earth. Vegetto defuses but only after Boo is transformed back into Pure Boo. Goku and Vegeta get poofed back into the afterlife, Boo follows, and the final battle goes as is in the manga, just with a scenery change. Goku and Vegeta big farewell one last time as Vegeta goes to get reincarnated. Or maybe Enma lets him keep his body.

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by rereboy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:41 pm

If death was permanent, hardly anyone, besides villains, would die in Dragon Ball. Perhaps none. Dragon Ball only has people dying so easily because they can be revived. If they couldn't, it would be like other animes where they are always almost dying.

In-universe, they would be screwed. In the Piccolo arc, many of the cast would die and then Goku would die fighting Radditz. Then, Vegeta or some other villain would eventually destroy Earth.

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:32 pm

Doctor. wrote:If the dragon balls couldn't revive people, which arcs would feel appropriate to kill off some characters?
Vegeta in the Freeza arc, definitely, but given the part he plays later I don't know if Toriyama would go throw with it. Better examples would be Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu in the Saiyan arc. They play no role after their deaths anyway, and killing them off there would both add to the shock value of the arc and clear the board for more prominent supporting characters who will take their places (Piccolo, Vegeta, and Gohan). I don't know how you'd even do the Buu arc without being able to revive people though, since literally the first thing Super Buu does is kill every single person on Earth.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:33 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:If the dragon balls couldn't revive people, which arcs would feel appropriate to kill off some characters?
Vegeta in the Freeza arc, definitely, but given the part he plays later I don't know if Toriyama would go throw with it. Better examples would be Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu in the Saiyan arc. I don't know how you'd even do the Buu arc without being able to revive people though, since literally the first thing Super Buu does is kill every single person on Earth.
The answer is to stop when the going gets good and end it on Namek ;)
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Re: If death was permanent

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:34 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:If the dragon balls couldn't revive people, which arcs would feel appropriate to kill off some characters?
Vegeta in the Freeza arc, definitely, but given the part he plays later I don't know if Toriyama would go throw with it. Better examples would be Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu in the Saiyan arc. I don't know how you'd even do the Buu arc without being able to revive people though, since literally the first thing Super Buu does is kill every single person on Earth.
The answer is to stop when the going gets good and end it on Namek ;)
1. Buu arc >>> Freeza arc.
2. Why would there even be a Freeza arc in this version of the series? The reason the heroes went to Namek was to revive their friends. They can't do that here.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: If death was permanent

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:43 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote: Vegeta in the Freeza arc, definitely, but given the part he plays later I don't know if Toriyama would go throw with it. Better examples would be Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu in the Saiyan arc. I don't know how you'd even do the Buu arc without being able to revive people though, since literally the first thing Super Buu does is kill every single person on Earth.
The answer is to stop when the going gets good and end it on Namek ;)
1. Buu arc >>> Freeza arc.
2. Why would there even be a Freeza arc in this version of the series? The reason the heroes went to Namek was to revive their friends. They can't do that here.
2. I'd keep the resurrection aspect an Elder Guru DBs exclusive thing, meaning Dende can resurrect everyone killed by Freeza, Vegeta,... but once Guru croaks, without a successor, his DB knowledge dies with him.

1. Image
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Re: If death was permanent

Post by hunduel » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:18 am

Let me take some notes before I start to conclude this theoretical scenario:
- There are Dragon Balls, but they cannot be used to revive people.
- Earth's Dragon Balls can grant 1 wish, while Namekian Dragon Balls can be still used to grant 3 wishes.
- King Kai is in another dimension and NOT in the other world

So let's get started! This scenario is distinct from the original series in many ways that you will see later.

- Krillin dies against Tambourine. That's a crucial point in the DB franchise and I'd keep it that way. While it would make some radical changes in the future of the events, it would still do justice to the character.
- Master Roshi is killed by Piccolo.

The events of DB are going the same way as they did originally, but one major change: Chi-Chi becomes a replacement for Krillin.

SAIYAN SAGA
- Raditz: No one dies. Not even Raditz. He can be defeated without Goku being killed, because Chi-Chi is with them, also probably Gohan is more scared AND enranged because he could lose both his father and his mother. (Also they hear stories about King Kai and decide to investigate, but King Kai only trains Goku. The others train with Kami.)
- Nappa, Vegeta: Chiaotzu and Tien die. Raditz fights against the saiyans too but he's beaten (but not killed). They go to Namek because they hope those Dragon Balls can revive people. Nappa dies probably.
- Namek Saga: No one dies but bad guys. Chi-Chi is either here or not. Raditz and Vegeta fight again, Raditz almost beats Vegeta but they have to stop as the Ginyu Force arrives. The other things probably go the same way as they did originally.
- Freeza Saga: Raditz dies against Freeza, taking place of Vegeta and starting his change of heart (as seeing someone willing to die for their own race rather than just speaking about pride without actual meaning). Piccolo dies protecting Gohan against Freeza's death beam. Goku realizes this and that moment causing him to turn Super Saiyan. Freeza dies.

CELL SAGA
- Freeza is killed for real (no Mecha Freeza), only King Cold, looking for revenge. He's stopped by Mirai Trunks.
- Androids: no one dies, but it gets interesting from here: Yamcha and Chi-Chi are the one who have to keep busy both Cell and later the Androids. The Androids gets absorbed and stay that way forever.
- Cell Games happens the same way, Goku dies for real but will come back for one day and only one day.

BUU SAGA:
- Vegeta sacrifices himself against Buu
- Goku and Vegeta defeats Janemba in Hell, and either Gotenks or Gohan can defeat Buu.


P.S.: In DBS Beerus helps them finding the Super Dragon Balls (the ONLY Dragon Ball which can revive people) so they probably can give him a proper challenge. But they mess up the wish and bring back everyone, even characters like Freeza.
Also insert Launch somewhere else to make the story a bit more interesting.

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