What the heck happened in Super's first timeline?

[Taingo]

I'm talking about the timeline where Goku and Zamasu first switch bodies, and Black Goku(Zamasu) kills Goku(in Zamasu's body) then Chi Chi and Goten. Does he just leave that timeline to wreak havoc? Did he take everyone in that timeline out?(I find that to be very hard to believe) I mean, what the heck is going on there?

[Grimlock]

We don't know what happened there after Goten and Chi-Chi being murdered. And, with other timelines unseen/not explained as well, do you really think they would bother themselves to explain stuff? We see something to see it no more.

[Akira]

Much of that arc was pretty convoluted and difficult for me to follow. However, the best I can give (at least at this point after having only seen the arc once) is to consider it like the timeline Cell came from. He killed Trunks and went to the past. Then later, after having dealt with a different Trunks who was still in the past and gained knowledge of events to come, that Trunks was prepared and killed Cell in his own future timeline before the cycle could be repeated endlessly.

The characters learned of future events yet to come for them because of things Zamasu was saying when they went to the future to battle him as his alias/alter ego, Goku Black. In the present, Beerus and Whis uncovered the plot, rewound time, and destroyed present Zamasu before he could continue the sequence of events. Beerus inadvertently created the fifth timeline by altering the course of history there, but it was for the better. Or perhaps it was changed the moment Trunks came to the past and set them on the course to uncover the details and eventually make the change. It is hard to say, and maybe I'll have a better understanding of it after another viewing one of these days, but I wasn't a big fan of the arc, so I probably won't re-watch it until the dubbed version comes along on Blu-ray.

The other question is, Is there only four timelines again now, since the Xeno of Trunk's timeline erased all of existence? Probably best that I don't think too much on the implications of it aside from that Goku Black killed the Kaioshins of each universe to thereby eradicate all the Gods of Destruction, and ruined all of the Omniverse in Trunks' time, so Future Xeno probably just said screw it and erased everything because of the failure of everyone involved.

[MaskedRider]

Black killing Goku, ChiChi and Goten takes place in the future of the present timeline, remember Black wears a time ring that allows him to only travel to the present and future.

Black travels to the future timeline with the Time Ring to recruit Future Zamasu (Which is why he doesn't recognize Black being Goku, I'd imagine Black fills him in on what happens in the present timeline now that Future Zamasu recognizes Goku after meeting Black)

Beerus destroy's Zamasu in the present timeline before he switches bodies with Goku but because of the time ring Black is protected from disappearing

Future Trunks arc only shows the present and future. I believe Terminator had something similar with causality where an event was closed off from happening because of a change. Beerus creates a new time ring due to interfering with causality and thus a new timeline is born. It sounds complicated but it ain't

Think of it like Berserk in the Golden Age arc, spoilers if you are not up to speed
[spoiler]Griffith sacrificing the Band of the Hawk was going to happen regardless because of the laws of causality in which how that series universe works, sure he still chose to do it but it was fated. If it was stopped then...I don't know because things such as time lines and time travel and all that hoo ha don't exist in Berserk[/spoiler]

[Generico Garbagio]

*says stuff*

So, does it make a double of them when they travel with the time ring? Otherwise how can the Zamasu who's doing his escapades in the future still be available in the present for Beerus to kill? And why does the ring pull him back to the future when he's Black but doesn't pull him back to the present at any time?

[MaskedRider]

*says stuff*

So, does it make a double of them when they travel with the time ring? Otherwise how can the Zamasu who's doing his escapades in the future still be available in the present for Beerus to kill? And why does the ring pull him back to the future when he's Black but doesn't pull him back to the present at any time?

No it doesn't. Black exists because Beerus hasn't destroyed Zamasu in the present timeline when it happened. Once Beerus destroyed Zamasu, all Zamasu's from the present timeline should be non-existent as Beerus confidently asserts but when they go back to the Future timeline Black is still there because the time ring negated his existence being obliterated.

The ring pulls him back into the future (I mean, the ring only allows him to travel to present to future anyway) because its reacting to the rip in space time trying to fix itself created by Trunks when traveling to the present. In Trunk's perspective its the past but to us and the characters its the present.

[Generico Garbagio]

But when DID Zamasu go to the future to become Black? If he was the Black that we know, he can't be both in the present as himself AND in the future as Black protected from being erased in the present as Zamasu, because he was actually only in the future as Black so there would be no Zamasu for Beerus to destroy in the present. So why would it make a double of Zamasu when he goes to the future to become Black after Goku beats him in the present? Trunks couldn't have caused a split timeline by time traveling because that still leaves only one timeline where Zamasu knows about Goku and could want to become Black. But that one timeline isn't enough to provide both a destroyed Zamasu in the present and a live Black in the future if they are the same person.

*EDIT: Maybe present Zamasu was pissed at Goku for beating him up so he went to see future Zamasu and told him to steal Goku's body for giggles and then said "brb gotta go back to my timeline to get destroyed" but Black missed him and when he found out about Trunks popping up new timelines left and right he went to an alternate future past to find a new lover partner.

[MaskedRider]

But when DID Zamasu go to the future to become Black? If he was the Black that we know, he can't be both in the present as himself AND in the future as Black protected from being erased in the present as Zamasu, because he was actually only in the future as Black so there would be no Zamasu for Beerus to destroy in the present. So why would it make a double of Zamasu when he goes to the future to become Black after Goku beats him in the present? Trunks couldn't have caused a split timeline by time traveling because that still leaves only one timeline where Zamasu knows about Goku and could want to become Black. But that one timeline isn't enough to provide both a destroyed Zamasu in the present and a live Black in the future if they are the same person.

*EDIT: Maybe present Zamasu was pissed at Goku for beating him up so he went to see future Zamasu and told him to steal Goku's body for giggles and then said "brb gotta go back to my timeline to get destroyed" but Black missed him and when he found out about Trunks popping up new timelines left and right he went to an alternate future past to find a new lover partner.

Nononono, Zamasu in the present timeline never went to the Future to became Black. I'm sorry if my wording implied that. In causality, what should have happened was Zamasu killing Gowasu and gather the Super Dragon Balls to become Black but when the gang found proof of Zamasu killing Gowasu they stopped it (Whis time reverse) and changed Gowasu's fate. Gowasu shouldn't be alive in the present timeline naturally which is why Black is shocked when he sees Gowasu.

When I said the present's future I meant "things to come" not the actual future timeline. Black being in the Future while Beerus hakai'd Zamasu did not affect him because the time ring protects Black who is in the Future timeline due to the time ring rules being that whatever happens to its user in the past won't affect them in the future.

[Generico Garbagio]

When I said the present's future I meant "things to come" not the actual future timeline. Black being in the Future while Beerus hakai'd Zamasu did not affect him because the time ring protects Black who is in the Future timeline due to the time ring rules being that whatever happens to its user in the past won't affect them in the future.

Yeah ok, but then both Black and Zamasu are from a timeline that has nothing to do with Goku mostly, so why would the Zamasu who becomes Black even know about Goku? The "things to come" future would still need Zamasu alive if nothing has created another timeline, that's why I feel like Black isn't the Zamasu from the present, but it doesn't make sense that he would even know about Goku if he wasn't the same one, unless some split occured because of the time machine, but then wouldn't the time ring let him only travel in the *other* split timeline? So it wouldn't even be "our" problem anymore? Did split timelines Trunks travel to the wrong pasts? What about Cell? How messed up is it that Cell time traveled as well? Was he really Cell? Every time Trunks travels in time, it basically makes a new timeline in which a Trunks will time travel to a random timeline and create more timelines and so on. Next arc they'll probably hunt down Trunks's in many futures with Zeno to stop the messing up. Then Goku will bring back a few Zeno's when they return, I'm sure.

[MaskedRider]

When I said the present's future I meant "things to come" not the actual future timeline. Black being in the Future while Beerus hakai'd Zamasu did not affect him because the time ring protects Black who is in the Future timeline due to the time ring rules being that whatever happens to its user in the past won't affect them in the future.

Yeah ok, but then both Black and Zamasu are from a timeline that has nothing to do with Goku mostly, so why would the Zamasu who becomes Black even know about Goku? The "things to come" future would still need Zamasu alive if nothing has created another timeline, that's why I feel like Black isn't the Zamasu from the present, but it doesn't make sense that he would even know about Goku if he wasn't the same one, unless some split occured because of the time machine, but then wouldn't the time ring let him only travel in the *other* split timeline? So it wouldn't even be "our" problem anymore? Did split timelines Trunks travel to the wrong pasts? What about Cell? How messed up is it that Cell time traveled as well? Was he really Cell? Every time Trunks travels in time, it basically makes a new timeline in which a Trunks will time travel to a random timeline and create more timelines and so on. Next arc they'll probably hunt down Trunks's in many futures with Zeno to stop the messing up. Then Goku will bring back a few Zeno's when they return, I'm sure.

You're making things unnecessarily complicated for yourself. There is no timelines other than the present and future timelines being shown to us, there is no split timelines, there are no unseen timelines (I mean there ARE other timelines but they are not presented in the story because they have nothing to do with the story.) Vegeta says the Zamasu of THIS world (to them that means the present, this reality, this history) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE3aHZ2ckPk stole Goku's body. Everything happened (DB/Z) happened naturally but Trunks, in Z, coming to (his perspective) the past stopped Goku from dying (which was supposed to happen naturally) but because it didn't (much like how Zamasu killing Gowasu in the present to steal his Kaioshin ear ring and time ring was supposed to happen naturally) it caused a green time ring to appear. Whis uses his time reversal to stop Zamasu naturally killing Gowasu which naturally created Black. Black using the time ring to travel to the future (remember, Black's perspective is that he is travelling from the present to the future) and recruit Future Zamasu to put forward the Zero Mortals Plan. (There is no clip of it in English on youtube of the scene but it is in Episode 61 that Black explains he is protected by the time ring)

The Zamasu that appears here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANvCLC8hBk4 is the Future Zamasu, he existed only and only in this Future timeline / reality / history. Goku is dead in this timeline therefore he will have no clue about Goku and the only reason why he knows about Goku or about the present / past events (his perspective is the present timeline is the past) is because of Black. His feelings about mortals stays the same though because that is who Zamasu is as a being. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_8XMmMEh_A

Black is this Zamasu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_4j8RLrbHY Black is from the same timeline (the present / past in perspective that you are in the future) that has to do with Goku and he should know because Black is that Zamasu but in Goku's body due to the Super Dragon Balls. He travels to the Future reality. His existence stays because he is in the future at the time Beerus hakais Zamasu in the past (in the perspective that you're in the future so that means what happens is in the past) and the time ring rules are that while you are using them in the future, what happens in the past to you will not affect you in the future.

There is another timeline / green time ring created due to Beerus destroying Zamasu from the present https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBaeHxzYoXM / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGSt2v_froI but we do not ever see this timeline.

I don't mean to sound rude but I feel like your responses come from lacking grasp of causality.

[TobyS]

That all makes sense except Beerus creating another ring by killing zam.

He overwrote the zam becomes black future and black exists as an anomaly.

Why does there need to be another ring, where does this go to? Is this in the manga too?

[dbgtFO]

I don't mean to sound rude but I feel like your responses come from lacking grasp of causality.

Can't blame him, as putting all the information together gives us no real beginning to this whole mess, as we are left with the scene of Goku beating Zamasu being the same with or without Trunks travelilng back, as that is part of Black's explanation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think I can put it a bit easier. Or at least not as complicated-sounding.

At some point, Goku fights Zamasu and makes him see the dangers of mortals. This original Zamasu steals Goku's body and travels to Future Trunks's timeline. With his Time Ring, he travels back through time, causing a stable time paradox where his existence in the one timeline inadvertently causes the events of his rebirth to happen.

There used to be a point where Future Trunks and Goku Black didn't time travel to the current timeline, but it vanished when Goku Black ensured a causality paradox. The strange nature of time travel, such as a stable time-loop paradox, could've prevented another timeline from occurring. It would've been an endless cycle where the future ensures the events of the past and vice versa, until Beerus and Whis stepped in.

Thanks to Beerus's erasure of Present Zamasu, he displaces Goku Black from the current timeline. At first, only Goku Black's Time Ring preserves his existence as a "time remnant", a being who has become separate from any timelines thanks to his existence being prevented but still exists because the events he was involved in still happened. Eventually, though, time corrects itself by creating another timeline from Beerus's actions.

[MaskedRider]

That all makes sense except Beerus creating another ring by killing zam.

He overwrote the zam becomes black future and black exists as an anomaly.

Why does there need to be another ring, where does this go to? Is this in the manga too?

I believe its in the manga but don't count me on that, he did overwrite Zamasu becoming Black by erasing him before he could kill Gowasu. That is where the green time ring is created because Beerus altered events much like Trunks altered events by stopping Goku from dying of the heart virus. I wouldn't know about where it goes to as the green time rings are never explored. I don't know why Black would be considered an anomaly, he traveled to the future world with the time ring and while he was present in the future world Beerus destroyed Zamasu in the present (Which in Black's perspective is his past, just Black because the past is different for the natural Future inhabitants) and the ring rules are that what happens to you in the past would not affect you in the future. My only real gripe about this whole thing is why the future timeline is the go to place for everyone but I'm not going to go crazy and study metaphysical and quantum physics over a Sunday morning cartoon.

I don't mean to sound rude but I feel like your responses come from lacking grasp of causality.

Can't blame him, as putting all the information together gives us no real beginning to this whole mess, as we are left with the scene of Goku beating Zamasu being the same with or without Trunks travelilng back, as that is part of Black's explanation.

Not exactly. Had Goku died as he was supposed to way back when in Z from the heart virus then present reality Zamasu would never had fought Goku and become Black and travel to the future world with the time ring to recruit Zamasu of the future. Think back to when Zamasu of the future reality first saw Black, he didn't recognize Goku's face because in that reality Goku died due to a heart virus because there was no tournament with universe six for him to feel disgust for Goku having divine ki on GodTube or a Goku to fight. While the Zamasu of the future still had malice for mortals, I'm sure the Zero Mortals Plan would taken place in the future (or maybe not at all) would take longer time to put into action taking into consideration Zamasu of the future did not kill Gowasu and was still learning to be a kaioshin. Zamasu, both of the present and future reality both always had malice for mortals but the present world Zamasu had an extra motivation to steal Goku's body because he saw Goku having the power as he did as being the shining example of the failure of the Gods and would take it is as his because he felt that it was his duty / burden as a god to take.

Zamasu and Black explaining why Trunks was the catalyst for present world Zamasu to seek out Goku's body while also berating Trunks for distorting time and history.
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Merged Zamasu explaining why he stole Goku's body.
[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Future Zamasu explaining that he is, from the perspective of Goku and Vegeta, that he is Zamasu of the future world (Because Future Zamasu wouldn't see himself as an inhabitant of the future.)
[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Black explaining why he can exist
[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Black explaining that he is Zamasu from Goku and Vegeta's reality
[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

Timeline of present / past Zamasu turning into Black and travelling into the future
[spoiler]












[/spoiler]

Whis explaining that the time ring allows its user to travel only to the present and future (not knowing that present world Zamasu used it and is not returning to the past but to the present from the future)
[spoiler][/spoiler]

A LOT of this has to deal with looking at it from certain perspectives

[Beerus-sama]

This is how I interpreted Future Trunks arc:

Goku Black's original timeline
- Goku visited Zamasu and defeated him (lets say for an unknown reason, maybe Beerus and Whis talked about Zamasu in another context and Goku wanted to meet him because he was a strong Kaioshin).
- Zamasu got angered and started thinking about his of Zero Mortals Plan.
- Zamasu sees the 6th and 7th Universe tournament and find Goku has god ki and get to know about the Super Dragon Balls.
- Zamasu informs himself about Goku and then procceeds to kill Gowasu, steals Goku's body and then kill him and his wife and son .
- Black travels to F. Trunks timeline (here I assume he uses the green time ring that corresponds to F. Trunks timeline as its shown in the manga where F. Zamasu is traveling to other timelines using the other time rings).

Future Trunks' Timeline
- Black recruits his future self to start his plan.
- Black kills all the kaioshin and therefore all the hakaishins.
- F. Trunks and Black fight for over a year
- F.Trunks goes back to the future past before Black is created.
- Black follows Trunks as his time ring can follow time rips.

Super's timeline
- Goku visits Zamasu with Beerus and Whis because they noticed Goku Black's time ring and his ki was a mix between him and Goku.

<Everything until the part where Zamasu kills Gowasu happens equally to Goku Black's original timeline>

- Beerus destroy Zamasu causing all future Zamasu's coming from this timeline to disappear too.
- Except Black has his time ring protecting him from every change in the past, causing Beerus to create a time ring himself since this is now a timeline diferent from where Goku Black came from.

I'm talking about the timeline where Goku and Zamasu first switch bodies, and Black Goku(Zamasu) kills Goku(in Zamasu's body) then Chi Chi and Goten. Does he just leave that timeline to wreak havoc? Did he take everyone in that timeline out?(I find that to be very hard to believe) I mean, what the heck is going on there?

I think after he became Kaioshin taking Gowasu's potaras he just left since becoming a Kaioshin meant his life was attached to Ramushu's so he couldn't kill him and because that posed a threat to his plan he just went to another timeline, which happened to be Future Trunks'.

[Generico Garbagio]

I think I can put it a bit easier. Or at least not as complicated-sounding.

At some point, Goku fights Zamasu and makes him see the dangers of mortals. This original Zamasu steals Goku's body and travels to Future Trunks's timeline. With his Time Ring, he travels back through time, causing a stable time paradox where his existence in the one timeline inadvertently causes the events of his rebirth to happen.

There used to be a point where Future Trunks and Goku Black didn't time travel to the current timeline, but it vanished when Goku Black ensured a causality paradox. The strange nature of time travel, such as a stable time-loop paradox, could've prevented another timeline from occurring. It would've been an endless cycle where the future ensures the events of the past and vice versa, until Beerus and Whis stepped in.

Thanks to Beerus's erasure of Present Zamasu, he displaces Goku Black from the current timeline. At first, only Goku Black's Time Ring preserves his existence as a "time remnant", a being who has become separate from any timelines thanks to his existence being prevented but still exists because the events he was involved in still happened. Eventually, though, time corrects itself by creating another timeline from Beerus's actions.

Sooo Black only exists because he went to the past which makes Goku fight Zamasu which makes Zamasu time travel to become Black to go back in the past to fight Goku to make Goku fight Zamasu to make Zamasu time travel to become Black to time travel to the past to fight Golu to make Goku fight Zamasu to make Zamasu time travel to become Black to go back in the past to fight Goku to make Goku fight Zamasu to make Zamasu time travel to become Black to time travel to the past to fight Golu to make Goku fight Zamasu to make Zamasu time travel to become Black...

Until Beerus does something that changes basically nothing after all.