Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

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Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:29 am

In M12, we are introduced to a machine in the afterlife that stores evil extracted from the wicked souls in hell which seems to be part of the reincarnation process. A foolish young Oni fails to notice that the machine is overly full and it bursts open, releasing all the evil upon him and then possesses his body and creates Janemba.
We know that Majin Boo had been defeated by this point in M12's timeline and he would be reincarnated shortly after as Oob, my question is was Majin Boo's evil stored within the machine and thus made up a bulk of the terrible power contained in it that formed Janemba? Is that why Janemba was so strong and seemed to parallel Majin Boo in certain ways such as starting off as a fat, jolly creature then turning into a fit warrior with a malevolent personailty?
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:50 pm

no. Oob doesn't exist in the M12 timeline nor would he exist. Goku never fought Boo again and Gohan had his ultimate strength so he's the one that killed Boo upon returning to fight. Vegeta was also still dead and didn't have a body. it's actually a plot hole in the movie that Boo never appeared since he was dead by that time. Janemba's creation was made just from all the evil that was filtered through the machines. had nothing to do with majin boo. Janemba only resembles majin boo in aspects like him being fat and chubby like nature to him transforming to a more serious, evil, and sadistic monster because that's how Toei created villains for the movies; they were just parallels to what was happening in the story. That's why Garlic Junior in the first movie wants to kidnap gohan. that's why Goku beats every villain from movie 2 to 4 with the spirit bomb. That's why Turles was a Saiyan with comrades that came from Space to Earth and knew Goku was there. That's why Cooler was a villain that had a final form just like Freeza and his movie having Goku turn super saiyan with similar framing like in the normal story, etc.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:33 pm

theherodjl wrote:We know that Majin Boo had been defeated by this point in M12's timeline and he would be reincarnated shortly after as Oob,
Huh? That's not how it works though, as movies are not what-if. They take place between events seen in the main timeline. Majin Buu was not defeated at all. Movie 12 takes place after Goku and Majin Buu fight (as Goku returns to the Other World, and that is the source of Goku's line "you're the second one to push me this far")/Majin Vegeta's sacrifice to defeat Majin Buu, and before Gohan gets the Ultimate transformation in the anime (see Daizenshuu 6 for more information).

So no, there's no relation between Majin Buu and Janemba. The latter came into existence due to the machine being broken.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:14 pm

Nero<>Akira wrote:no. Oob doesn't exist in the M12 timeline nor would he exist. Goku never fought Boo again and Gohan had his ultimate strength so he's the one that killed Boo upon returning to fight. Vegeta was also still dead and didn't have a body. it's actually a plot hole in the movie that Boo never appeared since he was dead by that time. Janemba's creation was made just from all the evil that was filtered through the machines. had nothing to do with majin boo. Janemba only resembles majin boo in aspects like him being fat and chubby like nature to him transforming to a more serious, evil, and sadistic monster because that's how Toei created villains for the movies; they were just parallels to what was happening in the story. That's why Garlic Junior in the first movie wants to kidnap gohan. that's why Goku beats every villain from movie 2 to 4 with the spirit bomb. That's why Turles was a Saiyan with comrades that came from Space to Earth and knew Goku was there. That's why Cooler was a villain that had a final form just like Freeza and his movie having Goku turn super saiyan with similar framing like in the normal story, etc.

Gohan did not have his Ultimate strength, the fact that Gotenks makes an appearance while Gohan remains in his ordinary state suggests that Gotenks defeated Majin Boo as per how Goku intended. I will admit that Oob may not exist in M12's timeline due to Goku not making his wish that Majin Boo returns as Oob, however Majin Boo would die and his soul would be sent to hell thus his evil would be cleansed from his soul. Granted we don't know how long that takes, it is possible that it could be relatively quick as a priority for the level of evil that Majin Boo possessed. Emma was able to cleanse Oob in a very short time as Oob was born not long after Majin Boo was defeated.
Grimlock wrote:
theherodjl wrote:We know that Majin Boo had been defeated by this point in M12's timeline and he would be reincarnated shortly after as Oob,
Huh? That's not how it works though, as movies are not what-if. They take place between events seen in the main timeline. Majin Buu was not defeated at all. Movie 12 takes place after Goku and Majin Buu fight (as Goku returns to the Other World, and that is the source of Goku's line "you're the second one to push me this far")/Majin Vegeta's sacrifice to defeat Majin Buu, and before Gohan gets the Ultimate transformation in the anime (see Daizenshuu 6 for more information).

So no, there's no relation between Majin Buu and Janemba. The latter came into existence due to the machine being broken.
Actually the movies are what-if, they take place in an "alternate dimension" as per Toriyama's explanation. M12 seems to be " what-if Gotenks defeated Majin Boo?" or something along the lines of that. How else do you explain the absence of Majin Boo in the movie? Its not like M8 happens in between the Cell Games either because they're alternate stories.
So there could be a correlation between Boo's defeat and Janemba's creation & high power, granted I'm not saying its a fact though just a hypothesis.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:01 pm

You seem to have a misrepresented idea about "what-if"/"alternate dimension". "What-if", as the name itself says, are events that didn't actually happened, it's a hypothesis (think of Dragon Ball Heroes, everything it does is "what-if". A hypothetical scenario). Toriyama confirms all the thirteen Dragon Ball Z movies indeed happened, just in an alternate dimension in relation to the "main dimension" (the one we see in the manga), so they do not fall under the "what-if" categorization since they actually happened.

No, it doesn't seem to be that at all. The idea that "movies are what-if", in this case "in Movie 12, Majin Buu was already defeated" are not supported by any official source. Again, Daizenshuu 6 (the only place that dedicates itself to talk about movies) do not state that movies are what-if, they give the exact time where the movies took place and Toriyama confirms they happened somewhere else.

The absence of Majin Buu can have lots of explanation in-universe, but the simplest one (generally the out-universe one) is the right explanation: the developers simply didn't want to put him in the movie. It's a movie about Janemba and how Goku will defeat him, it does not have anything to do with Majin Buu.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by dragon boss z » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:08 am

theherodjl wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:no. Oob doesn't exist in the M12 timeline nor would he exist. Goku never fought Boo again and Gohan had his ultimate strength so he's the one that killed Boo upon returning to fight. Vegeta was also still dead and didn't have a body. it's actually a plot hole in the movie that Boo never appeared since he was dead by that time. Janemba's creation was made just from all the evil that was filtered through the machines. had nothing to do with majin boo. Janemba only resembles majin boo in aspects like him being fat and chubby like nature to him transforming to a more serious, evil, and sadistic monster because that's how Toei created villains for the movies; they were just parallels to what was happening in the story. That's why Garlic Junior in the first movie wants to kidnap gohan. that's why Goku beats every villain from movie 2 to 4 with the spirit bomb. That's why Turles was a Saiyan with comrades that came from Space to Earth and knew Goku was there. That's why Cooler was a villain that had a final form just like Freeza and his movie having Goku turn super saiyan with similar framing like in the normal story, etc.

Gohan did not have his Ultimate strength
What makes you think that?

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:03 am

theherodjl wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:no. Oob doesn't exist in the M12 timeline nor would he exist. Goku never fought Boo again and Gohan had his ultimate strength so he's the one that killed Boo upon returning to fight. Vegeta was also still dead and didn't have a body. it's actually a plot hole in the movie that Boo never appeared since he was dead by that time. Janemba's creation was made just from all the evil that was filtered through the machines. had nothing to do with majin boo. Janemba only resembles majin boo in aspects like him being fat and chubby like nature to him transforming to a more serious, evil, and sadistic monster because that's how Toei created villains for the movies; they were just parallels to what was happening in the story. That's why Garlic Junior in the first movie wants to kidnap gohan. that's why Goku beats every villain from movie 2 to 4 with the spirit bomb. That's why Turles was a Saiyan with comrades that came from Space to Earth and knew Goku was there. That's why Cooler was a villain that had a final form just like Freeza and his movie having Goku turn super saiyan with similar framing like in the normal story, etc.

Gohan did not have his Ultimate strength, the fact that Gotenks makes an appearance while Gohan remains in his ordinary state suggests that Gotenks defeated Majin Boo as per how Goku intended. I will admit that Oob may not exist in M12's timeline due to Goku not making his wish that Majin Boo returns as Oob, however Majin Boo would die and his soul would be sent to hell thus his evil would be cleansed from his soul. Granted we don't know how long that takes, it is possible that it could be relatively quick as a priority for the level of evil that Majin Boo possessed. Emma was able to cleanse Oob in a very short time as Oob was born not long after Majin Boo was defeated.
Grimlock wrote:
theherodjl wrote:We know that Majin Boo had been defeated by this point in M12's timeline and he would be reincarnated shortly after as Oob,
Huh? That's not how it works though, as movies are not what-if. They take place between events seen in the main timeline. Majin Buu was not defeated at all. Movie 12 takes place after Goku and Majin Buu fight (as Goku returns to the Other World, and that is the source of Goku's line "you're the second one to push me this far")/Majin Vegeta's sacrifice to defeat Majin Buu, and before Gohan gets the Ultimate transformation in the anime (see Daizenshuu 6 for more information).

So no, there's no relation between Majin Buu and Janemba. The latter came into existence due to the machine being broken.
Actually the movies are what-if, they take place in an "alternate dimension" as per Toriyama's explanation. M12 seems to be " what-if Gotenks defeated Majin Boo?" or something along the lines of that. How else do you explain the absence of Majin Boo in the movie? Its not like M8 happens in between the Cell Games either because they're alternate stories.
So there could be a correlation between Boo's defeat and Janemba's creation & high power, granted I'm not saying its a fact though just a hypothesis.
Gohan did have his ultimate strength. he took out final form freeza with one punch in base form. easily.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:07 am

Nero<>Akira wrote:Gohan did have his ultimate strength. he took out final form freeza with one punch in base form. easily.
No. Ultimate Gohan has one long bang, in the movie, he appears with one small bang and one strand. Gohan beat Freeza in base form. Fortunately, Toei never did wrong when it comes to proper design of the forms, hairs were always done correctly in the movies, so you can tell it by that (also, Movie 12 came out before Gohan got Ultimate in the anime, and Toei had the pattern of never presenting something in the movies before the anime).

Ultimate Gohan first appears in Movie 13.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by sintzu » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:11 pm

Grimlock wrote:Toei had the pattern of never presenting something in the movies before the anime.
M5 released with Goku alive, established to have "killed" Freeza even though the fight wasn't finished in BOTH the manga and anime.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:52 am

Grimlock wrote:You seem to have a misrepresented idea about "what-if"/"alternate dimension". "What-if", as the name itself says, are events that didn't actually happened, it's a hypothesis (think of Dragon Ball Heroes, everything it does is "what-if". A hypothetical scenario). Toriyama confirms all the thirteen Dragon Ball Z movies indeed happened, just in an alternate dimension in relation to the "main dimension" (the one we see in the manga), so they do not fall under the "what-if" categorization since they actually happened.

No, it doesn't seem to be that at all. The idea that "movies are what-if", in this case "in Movie 12, Majin Buu was already defeated" are not supported by any official source. Again, Daizenshuu 6 (the only place that dedicates itself to talk about movies) do not state that movies are what-if, they give the exact time where the movies took place and Toriyama confirms they happened somewhere else.

The absence of Majin Buu can have lots of explanation in-universe, but the simplest one (generally the out-universe one) is the right explanation: the developers simply didn't want to put him in the movie. It's a movie about Janemba and how Goku will defeat him, it does not have anything to do with Majin Buu.
What-if stories are generally "alternate dimensions" in themselves, they do happen but not in any canon or prime universe.
Take the "What If...?" tales of Marvel or the "Elseworld" tales of DC for example, the writers of these tales recognize these stories as having existed but only in an outside/imaginary medium or an "alternate dimension" of Earth 616 or Prime Earth. The same could be said for the DB movies & GT as they aren't even in the same continuity with each other, each movie is unique in representing the Z Senshi at different eras of their universe. That does sound like a what-if anthology for various sagas as having gone differently for each movie.
Just because no official source on the movies explains why Boo isn't on the movie besides an out of universe example doesn't mean that Majin Boo has nothing to do with the movie, he is mentioned when Goku in the film when ascending to SSJ3 so that proves he was present sometime before. The fact that he is nowhere to be seen and that Gotenks makes an appearance can suggest that Fat Boo or Super Boo was defeated by Gotenks after all as Goku intended, nothing directly contradicts such a theory. The explanation of "a wizard did it" as being "lazy writer syndrome" is not a proper in universe example and an out of universe example isn't relevant, Majin Boo's defeat could fit into the film's lore.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:17 am

dragon boss z wrote:What makes you think that?
Nero<>Akira wrote:Gohan did have his ultimate strength. he took out final form freeza with one punch in base form. easily.
This was pre-ROF Freeza, his strength was no higher than what it was on Namek especially being confined in hell. Base Saiyans by the event of the Majin Boo arc would be powerful enough to challenge Freeza in his 50% state, however he doesn't even seem to be at that level if Saiyaman Gohan is capable of one-shotting him. Freeza was most likely in his final form's own base power upon the jailbreak out of hell.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by dragon boss z » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:10 am

theherodjl wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:What makes you think that?
Nero<>Akira wrote:Gohan did have his ultimate strength. he took out final form freeza with one punch in base form. easily.
This was pre-ROF Freeza, his strength was no higher than what it was on Namek especially being confined in hell. Base Saiyans by the event of the Majin Boo arc would be powerful enough to challenge Freeza in his 50% state, however he doesn't even seem to be at that level if Saiyaman Gohan is capable of one-shotting him. Freeza was most likely in his final form's own base power upon the jailbreak out of hell.
But that isn't proof Gohan wasn't mystic. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. And people like Bojak ran away after seeing Gohan's power which doesn't make sense if that was just his base, though he was just a background character so we probably aren't supposed to really think about it.

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:20 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
theherodjl wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:What makes you think that?
Nero<>Akira wrote:Gohan did have his ultimate strength. he took out final form freeza with one punch in base form. easily.
This was pre-ROF Freeza, his strength was no higher than what it was on Namek especially being confined in hell. Base Saiyans by the event of the Majin Boo arc would be powerful enough to challenge Freeza in his 50% state, however he doesn't even seem to be at that level if Saiyaman Gohan is capable of one-shotting him. Freeza was most likely in his final form's own base power upon the jailbreak out of hell.
But that isn't proof Gohan wasn't mystic. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. And people like Bojak ran away after seeing Gohan's power which doesn't make sense if that was just his base, though he was just a background character so we probably aren't supposed to really think about it.
There is more evidence to suggest that Gohan was in in ordinary form than Ultimate.
Almost every enemy that fled were villains weaker than Freeza with the only exception being Bojack & Zangya, however we do not see either of them actually flee. At that point the movie then shifts focus to the fight against Janemba and Goten & Trunks' fusion hijinks, Bojack & Zangya may have fought with Gohan but we never saw what happened next.
Gohan appears in his Saiyaman outfit in M12 with his pre-Ultimate demeanor while he appears in his Gi in M13 along with the more confident look he possessed in Ultimate state, he may have not needed to go Ultimate due to Gotenks succeeding in defeating Majin Boo. That could be why the focus shifted to Gotenks after Gohan defeated Freeza, as if it was a clue as to who the more powerful fighter is.
Goku also mention his fight with Majin Boo while it is never addressed by Gohan or the others, it could even be possible that Goku was able to defeat Majin Boo before he returned to the afterlife. Rou Kaioshin is never mentioned either which is the only way for Gohan to have achieved the Ultimate state, it just leads me to believe that either Goku finished Majin Boo or Gotenks did. Either one is more likely than Gohan having done so from the evidence suggested.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:53 pm

Everyone acting like Majin Buu was defeated in the events leading up to movie 12 and then you have me. I like to imagine Mr. Satan was succesful in keeping Buu under control and then during the events of the movie he's off somewhere else, maybe taking a nap like his Super incarnation so likes to do?

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Trickster » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:33 pm

There's a dialogue where Goku says to Janemba that " the last one" who made him uses his ssj3 form was Majin Boo, so I interpretated he was the one who defeated him. After that, he returned to Kami-Sama's Temple and taught Goten and Trunks the fusion. As Majin Boo was already defeated, they didn't need to reach ssj3, that's the reason he only appears in his ssj1 form.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Meshack » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:42 am

Majin-Boo did not die around Janenba arrival. Daizenshuu says that the Dragon Team should be dealing with Boo but are focusing on Janenba and the other villains.

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Meshack » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:57 am

Guys, guys...! If Gokuh was still dead, Vegeta died, Trunks and Goten could transform into Gotenks, and Gokuh fought Boo... that means Gokuh never went to check-up Gohan. At this point, Gohan would have been in the Kaiohshin Realm on Kaiohshin’s Planet. But, he was still on Earth. This also begs the question, “What was Mr. Satan doing?”

There’s literally no one this movie could have happened with the statements and where the characters are. It’s in the alternate dimension where these events could have happened even with the circumstances even though that would be weird.

I could see it as Gokuh checking up on Gohan and Gohan returns to the earth and Gokuh returns to the other world, Vegeta stays dead until given his body back by Emma-Daioh to fight Janenba, and Piccolo successfully taught Trunks and Goten how to do the Fusion dance.

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:58 am

Meshack wrote:Majin-Boo did not die around Janenba arrival. Daizenshuu says that the Dragon Team should be dealing with Boo but are focusing on Janenba and the other villains.
No use saying that. People here think their "headcanon" is above official information and so they ignore it as if they were wrong information or something.
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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by Meshack » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:00 am

Trickster wrote:There's a dialogue where Goku says to Janemba that " the last one" who made him uses his ssj3 form was Majin Boo, so I interpretated he was the one who defeated him. After that, he returned to Kami-Sama's Temple and taught Goten and Trunks the fusion. As Majin Boo was already defeated, they didn't need to reach ssj3, that's the reason he only appears in his ssj1 form.
If Gokuh defeated Boo, there would have been no reason for him to have Piccolo teach Trunks and Goten Fusion. Daizenshuu 6 says they should have been focused on Majin-Boo so this implies he did not die.

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Re: Did Majin Boo's Defeat Contribute To Janemba's Creation?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:29 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Meshack wrote:Majin-Boo did not die around Janenba arrival. Daizenshuu says that the Dragon Team should be dealing with Boo but are focusing on Janenba and the other villains.
No use saying that. People here think their "headcanon" is above official information and so they ignore it as if they were wrong information or something.
Meshack wrote:Guys, guys...! If Gokuh was still dead, Vegeta died, Trunks and Goten could transform into Gotenks, and Gokuh fought Boo... that means Gokuh never went to check-up Gohan. At this point, Gohan would have been in the Kaiohshin Realm on Kaiohshin’s Planet. But, he was still on Earth. This also begs the question, “What was Mr. Satan doing?”

There’s literally no one this movie could have happened with the statements and where the characters are. It’s in the alternate dimension where these events could have happened even with the circumstances even though that would be weird.

I could see it as Gokuh checking up on Gohan and Gohan returns to the earth and Gokuh returns to the other world, Vegeta stays dead until given his body back by Emma-Daioh to fight Janenba, and Piccolo successfully taught Trunks and Goten how to do the Fusion dance.
Meshack wrote:
Trickster wrote:There's a dialogue where Goku says to Janemba that " the last one" who made him uses his ssj3 form was Majin Boo, so I interpretated he was the one who defeated him. After that, he returned to Kami-Sama's Temple and taught Goten and Trunks the fusion. As Majin Boo was already defeated, they didn't need to reach ssj3, that's the reason he only appears in his ssj1 form.
If Gokuh defeated Boo, there would have been no reason for him to have Piccolo teach Trunks and Goten Fusion. Daizenshuu 6 says they should have been focused on Majin-Boo so this implies he did not die.
Please provide evidence the the Daiz 6 actually stated that M12 events is taking place during the Boo arc while Boo is on some holiday while the Z Senshi handle Janemba and his antics, otherwise your claims are the very definition of head canon conjecture.
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